If i could..

[Trapped765]

Thanks for listening to me this morning...everything just went completely sideways in my head..

I usually have better control....
I don't like this feeling....
The feeling of freefalling....
Spinning out of control.....

My emotions have more rule over me, more than I'd care to admit...

Emotions are.....weird.
Its easy to feel the rage...the anger...
Quite the opposite to admit the other feelings....
*shakes head*..

I am sorry for your pain and confusion. Every human needs love and care. Some need it a little some a lot. I have begun to think that's what they pick up on from us. It's an easy thing for them to give us what we need and take what they want. I liken it to a broken slot machine they put in a little some thing and it pays off again and again because its broken. They broke us their way so know exactly how to program our responses.
You are programmed to feel the way you do. He downloaded a virus into you and corrupted you badly. You can reprogram yourself with work. Understand the love is not necessarily what your real feelings are for him. Don't be hard on yourself many people without our trauma have the same problems.
As for the anger, a girl i knew used to punch one of those big toy things that never fall down. You hit them and they roll over and then bounce back upright. She'd hit it again. She taped a picture of her abuser over it. What you feel is valid and as my wife says "i hate emotions they make no sense!" It is possible to have conflicting emotions at the same time and both be valid. It's strange but true. We will listen and care for you.
Blessed be and peace unto you brother.

 

[Zangetsu]

I feel like I've made progress. I've had to. I've been in therapy for over 3 years now. My T constantly reminds me, that I can't fast forward to the end. And that's all I want, to get to the end. I thought 6 months was enough, than I thought a year was enough, then maybe 2...and now ..I can't believe it's been 3 years since I sought out help...at least 3 years of my childhood were twisted with sexual abuse...I thought...maybe an eye for an eye....like...time taken / time spent...that's how it should work, right? But it was more than just my perp, it was more than blaming myself for walking across that street, it was more than the complete emotional neglect and physical abuse at home, it was more than hiding in my bedroom, realizing that if I never came out, no one would miss me, come looking for me...I'm the background...I get that. I understand that. No one ever noticed me then. I get angry with my parents for bringing me into this world, if they didn't want me, WHY am I here???

Was it too much to tuck me in at night?
Was it too much to read me a bedtime story??
Was it too much to show some sign that you even cared about or loved me???
Was it too much to show any affection, a hug...a kiss...
Some acknowledgement...that I mattered...to someone...anyone??? Anyone but him...
And...I defended them...DEFENDED them to my Therapist.
I told him, that they were busy, busy providing. I had a warm bed, I had clean clothes, meals to eat, etc, etc, etc.
That is what I equated to love...necessities....That's what my T said....those were necessities...
He also told me, it shouldn't have ended there.
There should have been feelings, emotions, love, someone I could trust..someone I could TALK to!!
Honestly, I'd have better luck talking to a wall, and that stands true, to this day.
My Dad, he changed a lot in the last 5 years, until cancer took him in the fall of 2018...
I think he had a lot of emotional baggage from his childhood, he lost his Dad to a drunk driver, when he was 7...
I never held anything against my Dad...I understood...or that's what I kept telling myself anyways.
He didn't have a Dad growing up, so he just didn't know how to 'Dad' us...he had a lot of anger too...
But whatever was happening to him, before he passed away...I wish I would've had that, growing up.
He listened, He told me things...that he knew he never expressed it very well when I was young, but that he loved me, very much...and just wanted me to be happy...those were his last words to me..before he fell asleep...and never woke up...the whole family was there when he passed...and that was the first and only time, I ever saw my brothers and my mother....cry...
My family ...they are strong...silent...brick walls...
My sister in law, was annoyed that none of us..were trying to comfort our mom....and I don't think it was that we weren't trying...we just...how to respond to something like that? We never dealt with tears before, our parents didn't cry, show emotion...I honestly don't know what they were expecting us to do....

Life with my family was rough...but I made excuses for them... told myself it was because of xyz....I still loved them, they were / are my blood.
My Dad...he worked for the Sheriff department for years...my mom... was a RN for troubled children at Heartland Hospital.
My mom cared so much for those children, she was always buying them stuffed animals, movies to watch, crafts to do...
I have no memories of my mother growing up, other than threats of divorce when they fought.
I still can't connect with her in any way...she deflects every question I have..like I still don't matter...even though she says she loves me....it's just words at this point...I'm not sure I know what LOVE is...it is so foreign to me...along with sadness, sorrow, grief....any feeling of vulnerability, is just alien to me.

I think it's foolish to think I can recover from something like this..in 6 months...3 years...10 years...I feel wouldn't be enough....

i like to play Adult, pretend like I know what I'm talking about, but underneath it all, I'm just a scared little boy, in the background, afraid to feel..

There's so much...there...in there...I know, someday, it needs to come out, but even with all the work I've done, I'm afraid if I take those walls down, I'll be consumed by the darkness..the monster lurking in the shadows, that's locked up in my head, I'm afraid the sadness and sorrow will be too much, how do I process feelings and emotions of that capacity?

I keep it in ...to protect everyone else...including my therapist. I can't even describe normal sexual feelings with my therapist...it's so uncomfortable, I instantly feel dirty the moment the subject even gets brought up, knowing that what is up there..is pure filth..vile...disgusting...mixed with sadness...sorrow....joy....happiness...
It's all a big black ball of mess, and it's all there...the good, the bad, the ugly..(I know.. seems cliche to use that term...but it felt like it belonged there) because it's truth...It may be WRONG...but I'm Wrong...as in twisted....and I guess the truth hurts sometimes...

Sometimes, I wish someone would come along, and point me in the right direction...take control.....choose for me....
But that's not what being an adult is all about....I have choices to make...I just don't...

I don't know where I was going with this..I sat down at the computer...and I just typed....
And now, whatever it was I wanted or meant to say ...is gone.

 

[copernicus]

((( @Cirillo )))

I hear you so clearly here. I'm reading it, "listening" if you like. And I care about you! The feelings you're having are valid. They're worth having. They're worth expressing.

In your post you wrote:

I get angry with my parents for bringing me into this world, if they didn't want me, WHY am I here???

The thing that came to mind when I read this was a comment that I came across elsewhere on here, I think posted by Kal (@NC-Survivor), who brought up the Christian idea that we're all created to be loved. (1 John 4:7) While I'm not a believing Christian in the sense of totally accepting the the Nicene Creed -- I'm more a Deist in terms of dogma -- I think Christianity as a spiritual framework has a huge amount to offer. The idea that we are all created to be loved is an especially powerful example.

I really appreciate what it implies: that, OK, yeah, the circumstances of our entry into the world might seem random as far as we can tell, as if we've been just thrown into whatever circumstance we're thrown into. But after that has occurred, the Divine Principle wants us to love and to find love! It's the intention in establishing the whole set-up, and it is present not just in the communities we choose to build together (like this one) but also as a force in the cosmos that we can receive in contemplation when times get tough. Thinking about it this way, for me, anyway, makes it easier to see how things fit together and how adversity relates to the overall journey.

This is also a way of saying: WHY you are here goes far beyond your parents' decision to conceive you. That's just where you happened to end up. I know this because you're here and I'm listening to you in fellowship -- which is to say, with love.

 

[Zangetsu]

@copernicus

First off, I'm not sure what Bible you are referencing from, but the King James version states John 4:7 as:
'There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink'
or the Inspired Version (RLDS / LDS version):
Then he cometh to the city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground which Jacob gave to his son Joseph; the place where Jacob's well was.
Either way, it doesn't matter, I just kind of scratched my head, because my church is...weird....


I acknowledge what you're trying to convey...and I appreciate it. I know you said you weren't believing it in a christian sense, and I'm not trying to tell you or anyone what to believe. But it's hard to HEAR you ..or to understand, that we are created to be loved, when I was taught the complete opposite...

I was born and raised into the RLDS church (a.k.a Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [ya..I know.. a mouthful].
I go in and out of believing in God and Christ....while still holding the office of Priest within the church...
I thought / still believe..sometimes, he will save me from all this....

The church, the RLDS / LDS, I think have it backwards from the rest of Christianity, or, where I was, it is / was....
We weren't created to be loved, but created to love God, that he comes before anything else in our lives, even our spouses, our families, our jobs, etc. etc. Everything we have and everything that we are........(are given by him).

When I told my pastor, which was one of the first individuals I went to, when I was finally able to sputter out a few words about my childhood...when I started to 'crack'.

He looked me in the eye, and I believe, he believes exactly what he told me.
That everything happens for a reason.
Your childhood, it was meant to happen the way it did.
So I could do a greater work in the church in the future.
So that I could connect with others that are suffering or burdened.
That I could help others with my pain.

I was speechless...I felt the weight ten fold...one hundred fold...
How could someone, that claims to profess the love of God, believe something like that

I haven't been the same since that conversation.
In just a few words, that man, destroyed my faith in the Church.
He destroyed my FAITH...

...some say I took it the wrong way...that I'm going overboard in my response to his words

And NO.....N.O. I'm not.
If they knew the burden I carry...These memories that haunt me.
They would know I wasn't going overboard....and I would say it here...the anger to say it...but I'll bite my tongue.
I don't want to say anything triggering...triggering to myself...triggering to any of you..

But to be told...It happened for a reason...a REASON...
No.. I just can't...I WON'T believe that!!

I know it probably seems like I'm cutting you all off at every pass.....and I swear I'm not ....I'm NOT.
I get you're trying to help, be there, care...I get that...

But, this is what life dealt me, and it feels like the hand is ALL Jokers, and not in a good way...

 

[Healing light]

I hope you don't mind me sharing since I identified when I read your post

So I have asked the question why was I born.
What do I bring to this world with so many amazing things in it and so many awful things too it's truly a mixed up pot
It wasn't until I had children myself that I began to realise what they bring too the world , new ideas , new thoughts , new individuality
And children they bring to your attention small things you maybe wouldn't notice before like ants or the fact a leaf is greener than another all these things make the world all these individual things

Do we have a bigger purpose than being an individual thread in the fabric of the world maybe but I think that alone is enough purpose some days for me
I want to be part of the good in the world

I don't believe we was meant to carry the burdens we do I don't think we was meant to suffer and it's awful that we did

I have certainly worried about being consumed by the darkness I describe as a black cloud always dodging it because I'm worried it's more than I have to weather the storm

The feeling of having a hand of all jokers I felt was a great description for how I have felt to many times

I'm sorry I identify because I don't like that others feel pain and have suffered

I don't believe we was meant to I don't believe we had too but we definitely did

Wishing you peace in your healing

HL

 

[copernicus]

@copernicus

First off, I'm not sure what Bible you are referencing from, but the King James version states John 4:7 as:
'There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink'
or the Inspired Version (RLDS / LDS version):
Then he cometh to the city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground which Jacob gave to his son Joseph; the place where Jacob's well was.

Sigh. The perils of going by memory without double checking in the book itself. Should have been First John 4:7, which I've now edited to show. In the KJV (my preferred), it's "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God."

As for faith, it's something I've thought about a lot, because it's been very important to my recovery, in the sense of helping me start getting past the various self-defeating and self-destructive compulsions the abuse experience has left me with. Part of why I hadn't been able to change for many years was that I hadn't really figured out how to experience a divine presence in the world that felt absolutely real to me. Once I kind of stumbled into a way to do that (emotional collapse, in my case, broke things open), change became possible, though still not easy.

Part of the problem I confronted was that I've always found all religions fascinating on an intellectual level, because they all represent intriguing and in their own way valid solutions to the basic problems of existence humans are inevitably faced with. For me, figuring out how various religious belief systems work has been a powerful way of learning to see the world from different points of view. It's also pretty much headed off the possibility that I'd ever become a full-fledged Christian myself, because I simply can't bring myself to accept that the possibility of salvation is the sole property of one religion. It just makes no sense to me that an undoubtedly good person like Mohandas Gandhi would inevitably go to hell, simply because he was born under conditions that led him to shape his spiritual life in accordance with a rich set of myths first developed about 4000 years ago in the Indus valley, instead of having opted for an alternative, equally rich set of myths first developed 2000 years ago in the Mediterranean world.

For a couple years after college, I did a lot of work studying Tibetan esoteric Buddhism. There was much sitting crosslegged on a cushion in an incense-filled room, chanting, and listening to Lamas deliver very complex lectures through interpreters. That taught me many lessons, not the least of which was that as someone raised with a Christian culture, Christianity (broadly understood) would always remain my gut-level framework for understanding good, evil, adversity, redemption, and so on, regardless of whether I accepted it as the exclusive path to salvation or not.

The thing is, though, that I came to realize there was a separation between what Freud calls "the oceanic feeling," a kind of gut, intuitive sense that one is part of a universal whole and subsumed in a divine essence, and belief in any one specific religious system. All religious systems are paths to the same place. In my case, I understood that intellectually from the beginning...but it was only after cracking open and really facing my abuse that it became possible to actually feel it in such a way that it made it possible to imagine changing myself through surrender.

I very much identify with this, also:

@copernicus

When I told my pastor, which was one of the first individuals I went to, when I was finally able to sputter out a few words about my childhood...when I started to 'crack'.

He looked me in the eye, and I believe, he believes exactly what he told me.
That everything happens for a reason.
Your childhood, it was meant to happen the way it did.
So I could do a greater work in the church in the future.
So that I could connect with others that are suffering or burdened.
That I could help others with my pain.

I was speechless...I felt the weight ten fold...one hundred fold...
How could someone, that claims to profess the love of God, believe something like that

I haven't been the same since that conversation.
In just a few words, that man, destroyed my faith in the Church.
He destroyed my FAITH...

This is the most difficult problem any religious system has to confront. Theologians call it "the Theodicy Problem," but it's simpler to say, the problem of why bad things happen to good people. I'm reminded of a church funeral I'd once attended for a friend's baby who'd died of SIDS. It was an Evangelical megachurch, and the pastor was an excellent singer. Not a particularly subtle thinker, however, and in this case therefore obviously out of his depth. He came up with "the baby is in Jesus' arms," and that by dying after only a few months, the baby had been spared the suffering the rest of us have to endure by living our lives, but frankly neither of those things really accounts for why these two people should have to have their beloved child torn away from them out of the blue, or why the child himself should have been allowed to be born in the first place if his fate was basically to die by suffocation without having ever lived.

The one answer to the question I could come up with that seemed valid to me at the time, and still seems valid, is: we have no idea why the baby had to die. More than that: it's impossible for us, as human beings, to come up with any fully satisfactory moral or even theological explanation for it. We're stuck in bodies, confined to our human brains. Therefore our ability to understand is in key ways determined by the human brain's processing capacity. We can't imagine the eternal, we can't really accurately imagine an effect with no cause, we can't really imagine what space would be like if there were four dimensions instead of three, we can't really imagine a color that doesn't derive from some admixture of red, yellow, and blue, etc. The realm of the divine principle (of God, if you want) is what lies beyond our capacity to truly understand on any level other than intuition. For me accepting that has helped. It's created a space where I can leave myself open to not knowing, and nevertheless feeling that there's something beyond, just something that functions outside of the world of normal "making sense." I don't have that feeling all the time, but it's happened occasionally, and I cling to those moments very tightly. It seemed to me that the baby's death was a moment to acknowledge this huge limitation of the human mind; to recognize that consolation doesn't come from an explanation, but from an acceptance that at a certain point all we can do is have an intuition that there's something larger than what's readily perceptible to us here, and be open to the moment when, just briefly, we can feel that intuition as something real.

As for whether you're cutting me off...nope! You're not. I'm still here. And I absolutely do not, and I mean DO NOT, think you are "going overboard." Having my feelings dismissed out of hand, or having what happened to me be blamed on my feelings ("the bullies do it do you because you react like such a little crybaby, so you should just ignore it," etc.) are very familiar wounds for me. I see those in you and I am not going to dismiss your feelings, ever. You don't need to say anything triggering for me to have a pretty clear idea of exactly what's causing the hurt, because I know those feelings in particular all too well. I also struggle on a regular basis with blaming myself for voluntarily "walking across that street." I wish I could offer more than a virtual hug and a sympathetic ear, but those are what I have and they're yours unconditionally.

 

[NC-Survivor]

The thing that came to mind when I read this was a comment that I came across elsewhere on here, I think posted by Kal (@NC-Survivor), who brought up the Christian idea that we're all created to be loved.

thread is here: https://forum.malesurvivor.org/threads/the-shack-2017.75339

 

[BelovedSon]

@Cirillo Thank you so much for posting. Your honesty and ability to articulate what you are thinking and feeling helps me. I was eight when it happened at the hands of a teenage boy down the street. He would be 56 now and I wonder if he thinks about me, if he regrets what he did. The past month is the first time I have felt anger toward him and wanted to confront him. My T was quite encouraging about it and said it was good to finally turn that anger toward him instead of myself.

I too was raised Mormon. (I left the church when I was 14 and joined another church. That made pilgrimage out to Utah to visit the family a bit awkward.) I struggled with my sexuality for most of my life only gaining clarity recently. I too have struggled to trust and feel safe. I really appreciate your willingness to share. Thanks for being here and being part of this group.

 

[Stolen Soul]

My perp......even though he was the one to make me cry...more often than not...was the only man...to ever hold me while I cried. It's messed up....but...thats how manipulative he was...

My dad never did that. He always talked with his fists....

I feel dirty...disgusting...to even have acknowledge that memory....

Because it paints my perp as having....feelings....compassion....
And thats not my intent...at all...
It...just was..

Thank you for writing what was in my heart. I'm moved to tears reading what you wrote. You have said things that I wish I had the courage and strength to say.

My father was an alcoholic and the only touch I received from him were his beatings. My perp took advantage of the fact that I never felt loved by my parents. I was always lonely and didn't have anyone I could trust.

My parents hardly ever hugged, touched, or held me. I felt so distant from them. It was only when I was leaving out of town or some tragedy occurred.... my perp always held me, caressed me, played with me, took me places, bought me toys, spent time with me, .... he was the father that I didn't have. But he still used me--it's so f***ed up.

I have a hard question. Did he groom you? Did he take a lonely boy and mold him into someone he could use? It sounds that way.

Yes. He trained me from a young age (5-15) so that I wouldn't fear him when I got older. The later abuse was much, much worse than the earlier abuse in terms of memory and physical / emotional sensations. I think it was because I hadn't yet developed sexually. When he used me as a teenager, that really hit me hard.

 

[Zangetsu]

I Am Not Nothing

I know this song probably means something else, but for me, it is something I wish for... working towards.

There are a lot of songs that I listen to... That remind me of my childhood and that I am in a better place now.

Fight song

 

[Visitor]

Cirillo, you give us all a great gift through your honesty. Each of us has carried demons for a lifetime and believed the problem was always us. Whatever led us to Male Survivor, we learn by listening to others that horrific things happen in life and we had the great misfortune to be in the time and place where some of those things swept us away. None of it was our fault. We were innocent.

I'm with you, the comment that pastor made is offensive. It is a cheap response to the tragedy you experienced that says more about the inability of that person to find compassion for a person suffering than anything else. I'm sorry you encountered that.

That said, I believe we all know that nothing we do today will change any of what happened in our past... instead we do exactly what you've been doing for years... trying to make sense of it all without punishing ourselves further for what happened and for what we needed to do to carry those feelings.

It is an open question whether we can move beyond the wreckage of the past, but it will only happen when we have sufficient compassion for ourselves that we can act affirmatively on our own behalf. We begin that process by finding a therapist and/or by coming to this website and telling the truth. My guess is you've read about men here who are having some success in claiming their lives. Even if we never forget what happened in the past, I believe it is possible to find a bit of peace in our lives, but it is hard work, as every man here will admit. Keep sharing with all of us. This is what we all need to be doing... facing our demons squarely... giving others the opportunity to offer their support. None of us does this alone. Stay with it my friend.