hurtful behavior--before and after

hurtful behavior--before and after
S

SAR

I think this is interesting and warrants its own thread.

In Mezzo's response to LonelyOne (thread titled "How do I deal with the other women"), she said:
Please don't think you had anything to do with your husband's current behavior with that other woman. I am learning that when men start to deal with their past abuse, they become very self centered and feel that their hurtful behavior to their spouse is somehow OK. We are seeing a therapist who is very direct with my husband and helping him see how his behavior affects me and that he must be accountable for his own behavior, despite his past abuse. Please encourage your husband to seek a good therapist who has experience with helping men who have been abused, for his own healing. After that is in place, please get some couples counseling so you both can hear each others pain.
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This is interesting to me because I have believed for a long time that my boyfriend was "dealing with" his abuse, on some level, for a long time before he told anyone about it or sought any kind of help. Somewhere between 18-12 months before he disclosed his acting out and SA to me, he stopped a lot of his self-destructive and hurtful behaviors, including the sexual acting out, on his own and without a lot of fanfare.

We have talked about this and he has said that he just sort of realized one day that he didn't like the person he was, didn't want to feel bad about himself, didn't want to feel undeserving of our relationship. He's never mentioned anything SA-related in this list, but I've assumed it's in there somewhere, especially since this was the time he stopped the acting out. To me, this is the beginning of "dealing with," in large part because it marks the END of the self-destructive and relationship-damaging behavior, and the constant giving in to the bad feelings.

I am a big believer in actions speaking louder than words--probably what saved our relationship when I did find out about the acting out, was that he said he'd been trying to change for some time, and after looking back on the previous year, I could see that he was telling the truth. I don't think promises of the future alone would have saved it for me at that point.

Since then he has lived up to his promises to keep communication open between us and to stop acting out sexually, and he has been more thoughtful and responsible in general. For me anyway, a return to acting out or damaging behavior would indicate that he had *stopped* dealing with things, at least as far as "we" are concerned.

Here's what Mezzo's post has me wondering: Maybe I am "counting" wrong. Maybe my boyfriend started dealing with and confronting his abuse, not a year before he disclosed to me when he started turning things around for himself, but 3-4 years before that, when the acting out began. I know this seems like kind of a petty thing to focus on, but this "before and after" divide is pretty major in my mind. It is a way that I organize and cope with the fallout of his abuse and the ways my life has been changed because of it. At some point, he started facing up to things and moving on and healing. I can forgive things "before" that point that I cannot forgive "after". Does this make sense to anyone else? Are there any survivors out there who think about their relationships along this sort of time line, or is this just what obsessive partners do?

I should add, there is another, different kind of hurt, that I think IS a feature of the "after" period... I think the beginning of healing does leave survivors with little emotional energy for anyone else, which means they can't have empathy for what their partners are going through during that time. That is why I quoted Mezzo's post all the way to the part about couples counseling... there is a hurt and frustration that will not subside until he is ready to "hear my pain", but it is not the hurt I am talking about in this post. To me, this is a different kind of hurt from continued destructive acts.

SAR
 
Here's what Mezzo's post has me wondering: Maybe I am "counting" wrong. Maybe my boyfriend started dealing with and confronting his abuse, not a year before he disclosed to me when he started turning things around for himself, but 3-4 years before that, when the acting out began. I know this seems like kind of a petty thing to focus on, but this "before and after" divide is pretty major in my mind. It is a way that I organize and cope with the fallout of his abuse and the ways my life has been changed because of it. At some point, he started facing up to things and moving on and healing. I can forgive things "before" that point that I cannot forgive "after". Does this make sense to anyone else? Are there any survivors out there who think about their relationships along this sort of time line, or is this just what obsessive partners do?
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I think there's some psychological literature out there that discusses the concept of major life changes, I think the current theories state that it takes about 6 or 7 years to fully make a change, and that there are some key steps along the way (the steps went something like pre-contemplation, contemplation, attempting, regression, attempting again, success) or something like that - with possibly a few more regressions in there.... I'm not a psychologist by any means but I do recall reading something about the "stages of change" somewhere.

I totally understand what you are getting at when you say you can "forgive for before but not after". I think when in a difficult relationship you need proof that there are things that are happening to make the relationship move forward, and that the possible regression back to the hurtful behaviour is just a non starter. You need the hope that things wont go back to the way they were when you were really being hurt. Its one thing for someone to act out and do hurtful and stupid stuff when they dont know any better. Its another thing altogether for them to do the same things when they DO know better. Which is why I'm having a hard time with my fiance's anger issues lately - he's been to anger management, we've had the same discussions over and over, he still on occasion blindsides me with a full out passive-aggressive attack when HE'S feeling insecure. Its getting REALLY old and wearying.

P
 
Maybe my boyfriend started dealing with and confronting his abuse, not a year before he disclosed to me when he started turning things around for himself, but 3-4 years before that, when the acting out began. I know this seems like kind of a petty thing to focus on, but this "before and after" divide is pretty major in my mind. It is a way that I organize and cope with the fallout of his abuse and the ways my life has been changed because of it. At some point, he started facing up to things and moving on and healing. I can forgive things "before" that point that I cannot forgive "after". Does this make sense to anyone else? Are there any survivors out there who think about their relationships along this sort of time line, or is this just what obsessive partners do?
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One thing that I think people often overlook is that survivors "deal with" their abuse from the time it happened. They just deal with it in ways that people like, or at least don't find objectionable. At some points, they deal with it by "forgetting it." At other points, they numb it by drinking or taking drugs -- life of the party. At other points they shove it out of their mind by taking huge risks or having affairs or gambling. And sometimes they deal with it by killing themselves.

But we also deal with it in less overt ways. Sometimes we work too much. Sometimes we are compulsive about details. Sometimes we're overly aggressive on the job or in tackling other obligations. At the same time, we can be non-confrontational and passive, resisting any kind of fight or argument -- makes us real easy to get along with.

All these behaviors, to the extent that they're a response to SA, are fair game for changing. So the "before" and "after" divide that you speak of only happens in relation to a specific behavior, I think, not in relation to the overall issue of confronting and responding to SA. In the overall context of dealing with SA, the before period was before the abuse and the after period is after we're in the grave.

Having affairs is actually an easy one to solve, I think. It's obvious to everyone that it's not a reasonable behavior. And I think it's a simple matter for partners to confront it. Bottom line is you want honesty and you have limits. So you make a deal that he will admit cheating, if he does. And you bail out of the relationship if it happens.

More stressful in some ways are those behaviors where it isn't so easy to define right and wrong. What if your boyfriend/husband decides to quit a good-paying job in search of something that can accommodate his recovery? What if through recovery he becomes more confrontational and more willing to stand up for himself? This latter point I've heard described as a survivor becoming more selfish. Maybe. Then again, maybe he was a milquetoast because of his abuse and he's just finally growing past that.

I personally think the hardest part about being married to a survivor would be that we reach adulthood as really half-formed people. The amount of change that so many of us tackle later in life is not just a challenge to us, but obviously a huge challenge to our partners. How the hell do you decide to love someone who isn't who you think he is and is evolving into someone completely different? I have no good answer to that one.

Take care,
Dan
 
Okay, my 2 cents but please keep in mind that I'm no psycologist either and I'm new at this surviving stuff.

I read the Family and Friends section to get a better understanding of what my wife may be feeling. I've sent her the link but I don't think she's come here.

With regard to my emotional state.... Unfortunately I don't have a switch inside me which I can use to say "now I understand what the abuse did so I can turn off the switch" I've become who I am over 30+ years of dealing with what happened in the only way I knew how. I can't change over night no matter how much I'd like to.

With regard to my physical acting out... I kept that in check since I started dating my wife. It was always difficult but my belief system kept me from cheating on her. Now that I'm beginning to understand my physical acting out was all a result of the abuse, it is easier to keep it in check.

I really find it easier to deal with the physical aspect than the emotional aspect. I think this is because the emotional aspect was a constant part of my life while the physical aspect, while relatively frequent, was not a constant part of my life.

Not sure this helps anyone. I qualify my entire response by saying that as I move further into my own healing I may need to contradict myself.
 
Dan88:
One thing that I think people often overlook is that survivors "deal with" their abuse from the time it happened. They just deal with it in ways that people like, or at least don't find objectionable. At some points, they deal with it by "forgetting it."
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I agree with just about everything you say in your post, and certainly with this part. It's why I, too, put "dealing with" in quotes. When I say it in this context, I mean that at some point he consciously recognized his sexual abuse 1) as abuse and 2) as an event (group of events) that drastically affected his subsequent feelings and decisions. I do think that this sort of reclassification of the SA marks a shift in dealing with the SA overall and not just with specific behaviors, especially when the motivation behind so many of the behaviors is the same, and the compulsions toward many of those behaviors all become easier to control simultaneously. I'm not just talking about sexual behaviors here, but all of the other things my boyfriend did to further his feelings of worthlessness and shame: reckless spending and driving, poor personal care, neglecting friends and hobbies, among others.

Partly for the reasons PAS stated in her post, and partly for reasons specific to my own situation, it's helpful for me to understand how his mental state, especially with regards to the ways he understood the abuse at different times, contributed to the changes I've seen in him over the past eight years. I hope that by now I've seen the worst, but not yet the best. I think in some ways the question you ask, "How do you love people as they change?" is a question that troubles even "normal" relationships that last for decades. Hopefully, once you are communicating and opening your life and its changes to your partner, you can grow and change with him or her, rather than away. That's the best answer I know.


CFO Dave:

I know what you mean about the acting out being emotional rather than physical. I have more to say about that, but I don't have the time for it right now.

I don't think the change can happen overnight but I think the desire to change can come that way sometimes. The hardest thing for partners in the early days of the survivor's healing is that suddenly the partner has a hope for the future that was previously too scary or inaccessible for her to access (due to years of the old ways), and hope makes us impatient. Communicating to your wife that you are committed to moving along in your healing, and keeping the communication open even (maybe especially) when there are setbacks, will probably make it easier for her. Your wife might even be afraid that your healing will alienate you from her or make you resent her or want to change your life in ways that leave her behind. It might help if you give her a chance to express those fears.

Good luck in your healing.
SAR
 
Hey SAR,

You Say:
I do think that this sort of reclassification of the SA marks a shift in dealing with the SA overall and not just with specific behaviors, especially when the motivation behind so many of the behaviors is the same, and the compulsions toward many of those behaviors all become easier to control simultaneously. I'm not just talking about sexual behaviors here, but all of the other things my boyfriend did to further his feelings of worthlessness and shame: reckless spending and driving, poor personal care, neglecting friends and hobbies, among others.
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I don't know your boyfriend's story, and obviously that's ultimately where your answer will be found. I've always known that I compensate for the SA in my past. And as I learned years ago, I generally use the simplest solution to solve a problem. But when a drug starts doing more harm then good, I have to give it up and go looking for something else.

You seem to be saying that there is something more permanent or less harmful about the solutions offered by therapy or counseling -- don't mean to put words in your mouth, but that's what I infer. I'm not sure that's the case.

For purposes of this group, I'm sure that people would judge that I'm better off now with therapy, counseling and 12-stepping than I was 15 years ago. But there are also a ton of unpleasant side affects of using this direct approach to dealing with my SA that never came with my addictions. I'm not trying to justify anything, just pointing out what's been my reality.

When I got sober from drugs, a lot of people considered me worse to be around. When I got sexually sober, even more people found that I was not someone they wanted around. When I started therapy, I found it opened a spigot of new and challenging problems. And it opened me up to some very expensive discrimination -- I never lost a job because I was sleeping around or doing drugs. (Who knew that all those years when I was keeping my SA under wraps that I really should have been afraid someone would find out I was getting help.)

These days, I'm a more honest person. What people get when they talk to me is a more genuine me. And when I piss someone off now, it's usually not because I've done something wrong and I usually don't regret it. So are these better times? My answer would be: "better than what?" It's all a matter of perspective.

Take care,
Dan
 
Originally posted by Dan88:
One thing that I think people often overlook is that survivors "deal with" their abuse from the time it happened. They just deal with it in ways that people like, or at least don't find objectionable. At some points, they deal with it by "forgetting it." At other points, they numb it by drinking or taking drugs -- life of the party. At other points they shove it out of their mind by taking huge risks or having affairs or gambling. And sometimes they deal with it by killing themselves.
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Ok I'm digressing from the original point of this thread but to me this post brings up an interesting thought that I've had lately - one of the things that I am starting to notice in my relationship with a survivor is that he has spent a lot of time focussing on the fact that he was molested and how that affected his life - from the time of the molestation FORWARD - and has not spent so much time (if any) on the family system that set him up to be vulnerable in the first place (the "prior" to the sexual abuse phase).

My partner has done a lot to address the SA effects on his life, but has not really acknowledged that he had to have some kind of "environmental influence" that set him up to being vulnerable to a pedophile in the first place. If he was secure, had a lot of self esteem, felt loved and accepted and highly regarded by his parents, then he probably would not have sought guidance from someone who took advantage of him, someone who saw his weaknesses and used them to satisfy his sick, twisted needs.

And in my opinion, its the prior dysfunctional "family system" that is causing more problems for our relationship than the fact that he was molested... although shocking and traumatizing (and having a major influence on his sexual development nonetheless) his molestation was a short term event, while the influence his parents had on him was for decades. And our "issues" revolve MORE around anger and inappropriate use of anger/difficulties in resolution of anger/conflict than about his acting out sexually, etc. He's managing the SA effects quite well in fact, its the other stuff (anger at his parents) that is not so much in check. I think in my fiance's case anyhow, the "dealing with it" should refer to not only the SA but the context/system that the SA "arose from".

Just a thought - that I think that SA recovery should look at more than just the SA event itself, but the entire environment that the survivor was raised in, PRIOR to the SA, during, and after, and I think that therapists are probably not doing their clients enough service if they solely focus on the SA events out of context. The "environmental context" and the SA of course would be one and the same thing if it was a parent who did the abusing.. which I think is probably up a notch on the highly cruel and unusual punishment scale that ALL SA and abuse issues sits on...

Later dudes and dudettes....

P
 
PAS - you are sooooo right about this!

In my training as a rape crisis volunteer, it was stressed that "secondary wounding," the lack of support or disbelief or minimization or hostility of family & authority figures, usually has a much more lasting impact than does the original crime.

YECH!
 
I think in my fiance's case anyhow, the "dealing with it" should refer to not only the SA but the context/system that the SA "arose from".
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I certainly wouldn't argue with you about your fiance's situation, since I know nothing about it. But the things you talk about -- family situation,etc. -- weren't relevent to my story. I guess this is probably something that goes case by case.

Take care.
 
Originally posted by kolisha54:
PAS - you are sooooo right about this!

In my training as a rape crisis volunteer, it was stressed that "secondary wounding," the lack of support or disbelief or minimization or hostility of family & authority figures, usually has a much more lasting impact than does the original crime.

YECH!
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I've heard that from my SA partners counsellor too.. that the lack of support was as damaging or MORE than the original crime. But the situation PRIOR to the SA that facilitated the child being "groomed" by the perp probably is just as damaging as well.. despite the SA there's the original family system that has to be "gotten over" as well.. and that system can be just as damaging. I can only speak for women (myself and some friends)that system can often drive us to "look for love in all the wrong places" and wind up pushing us into bad relationships, staying with abusive partners, etc..... "anything to feel loved". While I cannot speak with a man's perspective, I doubt that women are the only ones who feel driven to do such things... and yes of course this is one particular, individual case.. indeed the situations where the abuser is the parent or parental figure, the environment/abuse experience/abuser are one and the same...

P
 
Kolisha

In my training as a rape crisis volunteer, it was stressed that "secondary wounding," the lack of support or disbelief or minimization or hostility of family & authority figures, usually has a much more lasting impact than does the original crime.

YECH!
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This is why I hate my old headmaster more than all of my abusers put together.
If he were alive I would never tire of kicking him!

Dave :mad:
 
About acting out in a "mental" sense...

My boyfriend "acted out" online with a girl he never met in person, and shared nearly nothing of himself with. An objective observer would probably call only one or two of their encounters sexual in any way. When I asked him what he could have been getting out of this, he said he felt that he should just do what she wanted, say what she wanted to hear, and listen to her not-screwed up life. He wanted to feel used by someone, but in a specific way... he wanted to meet someone's sexually charged emotional needs in a way that fulfilled none of his own sexual or emotional needs but left him feeling like the shameful and screwed-up one. When she did try to reach out to him, emotionally and/or sexually, he backed away.

I certainly think that this particular brand of "acting out" is a product of the SA and the prior dysfunctional environment of his childhood combined. Both the SA and the family reinforced the "bad message" recreated in the acting out: "I am only good for what others want me for."

A survivor acting out to re-create the occasion for the bad feelings to present themselves, doesn't only carry the feelings at the time of the acting out. The feelings are always there and probably always influence the survivors life and decision-making, at least until they are recognized and the survivor attempts to replace them with something better (by the way Dan, I'm not sure this recognition/replacement happens only as a result of therapy).

Can this push the survivor into bad relationship (not just acting-out partner) choices, as PAS describes? I have no doubt. And I'm sure that to some, they make "perfect" partners, do everything their spouses ever want, have no problems communicating, etc. The problem is, "never has problems communicating, does everything I could ever want" really means "too withdrawn/afraid to communicate, perpetuates low self-esteem by only being good for what others want." And I think Dan88 is right that some family and friends of the evolving survivor will not be comfortable when suddenly he starts communicating and striking a balance between his needs and their needs.

I try hard not to create an enviroment where my boyfriend feels unsafe expressing himself... sometimes this means more reading between the lines than I really think is fair or even helpful though--as in, "are you SURE you're okay with doing this, are you sure you're sure, because you don't have to if you're not sure..." :rolleyes:
 
I know that I will be quite unpopular for saying this. But I do feel that we are responsible for our behavior, always, after the abuse is over. Now, yes, there will be times when we will act or react because the abuse. But we need to hold responsibility for how what we do affects others. Always.

Leosha
 
No, I don't think Leosha's statement is wrong either.

I've defended and explained my acting out many many times here, and I'll continue to so because I know that my dysfunctioonal thinking, and all the other attributes towards my state of mind did genuinly create the environment where I acted out.

Then I decided to do something positive to break that toxic environment.
"What to do?" was determined by a fair amount of luck I suppose, but somehow I fell into a good regime of help and support.
And with that came responsibilities.

They didn't come easily to me, or with any speed. They came slowly and with hard work and many mistakes along the way.
It's so slow that although I last acted out with another man in May 1998 I did look at porn for half an hour last night. Which could / would be considered by many as acting out.

Exactly the same mechanism was at work last night as there was back in 1998, I felt the same feelings and emotions, the same type of helplessness against clicking the mouse and carrying on as I did walking into a toilet cubicle with another man.
But it was only the same 'type of helplessness' - the intensity is far less, and getting less with every episode.

That's because I now feel responsible for how I behave instead of guilty, and that's a big difference.
The guilty feeling was the both the driver and the ultimate goal of acting out for me, I wanted to feel like shit ( guilty ) because I believed I was shit.
Well, I'm NOT shit, and f**k feeling guilty! I've had enough of that for at least two lifetimes!

Feeling responsible ( as opposed to 'being' responsible ) means that if I go to a porn site it denies the guilt a chance of getting established.
I think to myself "OK Dave, let it run for a while and then fight it."
That way I feed a little bit of 'satisfaction' to the triggers and drivers, get them out of the way and then say "I'm outta here!"
It's much the same as any addict weaning themselves away from their addiction I guess?

And I genuinly dont feel guilty about looking at the porn last night, although I would have done even a couple of years ago.
It happened, it's gone, and I dealt with it - I took responsibility over my feelings rather than the action. Responsibility for the actions will come later.

dave
 
Dave and Leosha,

I believe there is a difference between holding ourselves accountable in our day-to-day lives, and really taking responsibility for/reconciling our prior acts.

You need a firm grasp on the first one before you can even work on the second. Of course, once you are holding yourself accountable, you might feel a need to settle those past debts. But I think for a survivor who never had any model for this kind of accountability, or never had anyone claim responsibility for the hurt inflicted upon him, this requires a really radical shift in thought.

My boyfriend told me once that he always thought of apologies in terms of "giving regrets," not "taking responsibility"... as in, when you apologize to a person for YOUR behavior, you're really putting your own toxic regret and bad act on to that person, who's already been hurt. Instead of taking the hurt you've caused that person away from them, you're leaving them with their original hurt, plus the burden of the wrongdoer's regret and guilt. That's not right. But it was the way that he saw other people "take responsibility" for their actions. No wonder he didn't think much of saying sorry :mad: And of course it's impossible in that case to apologize to yourself.

When someone "takes" responsibility for how they've affected someone else, then they can TAKE the whole poisonous event OUT OF the relationship, and fill in the gap with something loving and productive.
 
Leosha,
I hope that's not an unpopular position to take. I hadn't thought of this discussion as being about responsibility, but I agree with you. We all have to take responsibility for our actions. There are reasons why people do the hurtful things they do. Even perps have reasons why they abuse. But whatever the reason, that doesn't excuse anyone, survivor or not.
Dan
 
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