Hurt and confused

[lindts]

I need answers. Brief recap: a few months back things were slowing going very well with my bf after a miserable summer of him confronting his SA. We were moving forward slowly and really enjoying each other again. I posted a msg on sabotage because he applied for an out-of-state job without discussing it with me. When it looked like he might get the job, he immediately apologized sincerely, numerous times. He said he was going through a bad time when he applied. I know that's true because I remembered how he was during that time. I immediately accepted his apology with no questions asked.

A few days later, just before the holidays, he tells me not to worry because he has a plan regarding the job. He comes over that night and proposes to me and wants me to move halfway across the country with him. For the first 15 sec., I jump on him with excitement and tell him how much I want to be with him, but when I realize he wants me to move, I start to cry uncontrollably for the next two hours.

The next day, I apologize for hurting his feelings with my tears, but explain that I love where I live (I have a special personal attachment to the area), I like my job, his family is nearby, my family loves to visit the area and on the few occasions he would talk about our future, it was always assumed we'd end up here. Besides, if he ever took the time to really listen to me, he would have realized how much it means to me to live here. Now the transfer is only two years and the possibility of returning is pretty good, but nothing is for certain.

Consequently, he is furious and refuses to talk to me and won't even mention if he still wants to get married. I feel very hurt. I stuck with him this whole summer while he went through his horrible times. I have tried so incredibly hard to be the best gf that I could be. He never even considered my feelings in moving. Besides, just about a month and a half ago he said that the things with SA were coming along well but that he still needed a little more time before we could talked about our future. Then suddenly the job thing happens and within three weeks he proposes.

Also, he wasn't going to visit my family (in another state) during the holidays to announce the engagement because he "had" to work...he's a work-a-holic, but when he refused to go to Times Square for the New Years (because of work again), I went without him and that made him even angrier. It was a lifetime dream of mine and I'd been mentioning it for over a year and trying to go for the past three years. Instead, I spent them with him. This year I wanted to look after my own welfare and fulfill a dream. He said I should have spent the holiday with him this year since he asked me to marry him, but what about him sending me home alone to tell my family we're getting married?

He refuses to talk to me or see me now, saying that he needs time (just like this past summer). I can't believe he is so angry, I should be the one who is angry and saying the hurtful things, not him. Had he never tried to sabotage our relationship with this job and then try to "fix" the situation by proposing, then we wouldn't be in this mess. He's trying to put the blame on me and I know it's not my fault. A few weeks ago, I was his best friend and, according to him, the nicest person he knew, now he won't have anything to do with me.

He makes it seem like it's all about my crying about the move and my trip to Times Square, but when I think about everything, I almost feel like the SA stuff is coming back. It seemed like he was progressing along slowly but steadily and then suddenly, around the time of the job stuff, he started acting like it was all resolved instantly and things started moving super fast.

I don't know what's going on?

 

[Caetel]

Just one word is coming to my mind !

WOBBLE !

I can just tell you that male survivors don't like being reminded about where bounderies stand ! You just did that which is very brave.
I don't think proposing is a nice thing to do when the motivation lies trully elsewhere !
Maybe your man is pushing you away to sort out heavy stuff and does not want to give you the right reason because he is proud and he wants to prove he is a REAL man, which means sorting out his problems on his own !
Good luck and give him time ! (I know I know this is not fair ! People keep telling me that about V. as well and I DON'T want to be patient !)
Be strong, love is such a wonderful thing !
Caroline

 

[SAR]

I know I have been riding this pretty hard lately, but I really think it's about survivors "testing" their loved ones.

If he expects to be let down, or feels that he deserves it, then he's going to be constantly trying to reinforce that belief by manipulating the actions of the people around them--testing them, and setting them up to fail the tests. There is no way for you to react to his proposal that is in line with yourself and what he knows of you, that will make him happy. He knows this. He must know of your attachments to your family, home, etc. If you did what he "wanted you" to do, then you wouldn't be you, and not being the person you've been to him is another way of failing the test. Same thing with the situation over the holidays.

I don't know if I have any answers for this. I think this testing behavior is rooted very deeply and so are the beliefs of worthlessness and fear that cause them. I know that in my case, when I "went along" with the test and did what my boyfriend asked of me (ignore the problems, trust him despite evidence to the contrary, give in to/ forgive his recklessness), I "failed" anyway because I made him feel like I didn't care anymore, I was just saying whatever he wanted to hear like everyone else always had. I "passed" the test eventually by sticking up for myself and showing him that I both loved him and wanted to help him, and that I was not about to ruin myself trying. But I had been trying to show him that for some time and he only saw it when he was ready to. There is no way to win this until he figures out what he's doing to you.

Peace and good luck
SAR

 

[Lloydy]

If he expects to be let down, or feels that he deserves it, then he's going to be constantly trying to reinforce that belief by manipulating the actions of the people around them--testing them, and setting them up to fail the tests.

"Ouch - that hurts !"
Because I know how much I used to do just that.

Whether I 'knew' I was doing it is another question though.
I would hate to think it was a completly concious behavior, but equally I hate to make excuses for something I could have controlled.
I think it was one of those deals where the motivation was a mystery to me, but obviously I did have to do some mental gymnastics to arrange the 'failures' that happened all around me.

Looking back - life was pretty s*****y at times

Dave

 

[PAS]

He refuses to talk to me or see me now, saying that he needs time (just like this past summer).

Yes definitely the SUPER WOBBLE.. also this sounds like a power struggle or at least a control issue.

However, what is glaring to me is the swing between the proposal and cutting you out. This isn't love. This is control and manipulation.
This isn't the stuff on which a solid marrige is made. Marriages between NON SA partners is hard enough.

Do you want to be in a relationship with someone who negotiates that way?

Dont buy the shit he's dealing that it is YOUR fault.. my fiance is the KING of projection and there is nothing more emotion-provoking than projection.. stay calm.. stay focussed.. dont cave into the crap... walk away if you have to.. if you mean as much to him as he says he'll go to the ends of the earth to be with you. If not, better to know now before you walk down the aisle!

P

 

[SAR]

Sorry Dave! Wasn't trying to sting you!

"Ouch - that hurts !"
Because I know how much I used to do just that.

Whether I 'knew' I was doing it is another question though.
I would hate to think it was a completly concious behavior, but equally I hate to make excuses for something I could have controlled.

I don't think anyone can "control" this anymore than they can control any other emotional response. It's a more complicated version of telling yourself to stop crying. (or, to start crying?...)

I can't find any kind of solution to this problem while it's going on. All of my insights in this thread came after the fact. And most of them are my boyfriend's insights. I don't think I could have possibly understood how much of his life was about trying to push people into letting him down unless he had figured it out for himself and told me about it. And who wants to proctor THAT exam all day?

This is really hard, man.

SAR

 

[PAS]

This is really hard, man.

Quote of the century!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.............. Just when I think I'm at the breaking point.. dealing with my fiance's SA, knowing he'll be prosecuting his perp, work such a battle, my own anxieties and issues, along comes something else.... My house is currently under major renovations and the repair guys trashed most of my stuff.. i've not had a place to live since Jan 5!!!

I'm cracking up!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P

 

[lindts]

[[/QUOTE]I don't think anyone can "control" this anymore than they can control any other emotional response. It's a more complicated version of telling yourself to stop crying. (or, to start crying?...)[/QUOTE]

I wish I would have read the thread on wobble before this incident, then I wouldn't have come back to the site so bruised and confused.

Where do I start/end my compassion and end/start my anger at him? If he can't control it, then how can I not have compassion for him, yet as understanding and supportive that I've tried to be, how can he be so mean with his words? I worry that every confrontation will lead to his "flight" response.

How can I expect him to make me feel secure in the relationship, if I am suppose to give him space and time, and not prod him into opening up about his thoughts?

Do survivors, during these times, feel bad about being mean to their loved ones? And do they spend half the time thinking/worrying about these bad situations like the partners do. Even as I try to stay in the "working zone", I'm angry that my mind and heart are constantly worried about him all day.

I want to be there for him because I can remember the way he was before the SA stuff came flooding back. He's not to blame for the SA so how can I not be there for him? Is that what "for better or worse" is about? (Enlighten me PLEASE, I've never been married)

Thank you for all the words of encouragement, everyone... I really, really, REALLY need to hear them.

 

[Lloydy]

Do survivors, during these times, feel bad about being mean to their loved ones? And do they spend half the time thinking/worrying about these bad situations like the partners do. Even as I try to stay in the "working zone", I'm angry that my mind and heart are constantly worried about him all day.

Oh yes, I'd feel bad, but I'd get over it with a fantasy, thinking about which tires to use on the 4x4 at the weekend, all the 'important stuff'

It's a great defence and coping stratergy, we piss people off so they don't come too close, blame them for it, and retire gracefully into our little world. Only popping out for food, drink and laundry.

Dave

 

[SAR]

Who says you can't be compassionate and angry at the same time?

You must feel angry because you feel hurt and insecure in your relationship, and your hurt and insecurity are not being addressed. I'd bet that if he could make you see that he does recognize and understand your feelings a little (or, to put it another way, if he "felt bad"), a lot of your anger would vanish.

But if you're not compassionate with him, he'll never tell you that he recognizes your hurt, even if he does. And if you are compassionate with him to the point of sacrificing your own needs and feelings, you'll feel taken for granted and just get angrier.

It's not fair.

I know this "flight" reaction. My boyfriend and I will be talking and if I bring up anything related to the period of time when he was cheating (including things that have nothing to do with him cheating), his eyes glaze over and he can't listen anymore. I know that he actually does this BECAUSE he feels bad. He doesn't want to face feeling bad for what he's done. He doesn't want to think about/ remember how he's hurt me. This isn't fair either. If I have to spend the rest of our life avoiding our (his) bad memories then it's not healing at all, at least not to me. But on the other hand, I can't say I blame him. If I were the one who'd done something terrible, I wouldn't want to talk about it either. He's afraid that talking about it will "remind me" (like I could forget). I know that I'm just going to have to reassure him, a lot more, that I'm not just going to up and leave him one day over something I haven't left him over yet.

There is a way, I think, for you to get the validation you need without having him apologize for everything he's ever done wrong to you. But maybe sometimes that's what they're afraid of? That one apology will result in a demand for his whole list of sins? That if he starts admitting how he's hurt you, then you'll figure out that he's really not worth it?

This is tough for him and for you. But "for better or for worse" is also for him and for you. He's going to have to confront his fears, and start recognizing your anger, if he's serious about making a relationship work. If you're having all of the better and all of the worse, and he's just being "okay-but-not-really" in his own little world, that's not what long term relationships are made of.

He may not to blame for his actions, but he does have to start being responsible for them.

Sar

 

[Lloydy]

I have to add though that the comments in my last post were about how I was some years back.
And I genuinly did feel bad about my behaviours and attitudes. But I had no ability or frame of reference to deal with the problem of apologising, so I'd retreat.

Recovery and therapy teaches us a lot, we have to forgive ourselves for what we've put ourselves through with out distorted thinking, guilt and shame. And from that I learned to feel genuinly sorry towards others, and express it.

It's scary for the reasons SAR said-

He doesn't want to face feeling bad for what he's done. He doesn't want to think about/ remember how he's hurt me.

Now I can talk quite openly with my wife about my acting out, because we trust each other and I know how to do it now.
A few years ago if I'd been caught acting out and had some explaining to do I'd have made it her fault. There was no way I accepted ( outwardly ) that anything I did was wrong.

Dave

 

[gryffindor]

The biggest stressors in life -- the ones that potentially shorten life -- are:

1. birth

2. death

3. job loss

4. divorce, and

5. moving.

Moving has just about ruined my life. My suggestion is dump the guy. He asked you to marry him not because he wants a lifelong companion but because he doesn't want to come home to an empty apartment at the end of the day. He wants you there to keep him from feeling lonely. Do you really want to start a brand new life in a brand new place where you know no one, where you have none of the support and connection that long-time friends and family provide, and where your only human comfort comes from someone who blows hot or cold depending on how secure he feels? He probably won't be feeling real secure in a brand new job in a brand new place where he knows no one and has none of the support and connection of friends and family that he's accustomed to, except you. It sounds like a receipe for divorce to me.

Mary

 

[PAS]

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Do survivors, during these times, feel bad about being mean to their loved ones? And do they spend half the time thinking/worrying about these bad situations like the partners do. Even as I try to stay in the "working zone", I'm angry that my mind and heart are constantly worried about him all day.
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Oh yes, I'd feel bad, but I'd get over it with a fantasy, thinking about which tires to use on the 4x4 at the weekend, all the 'important stuff'

It's a great defence and coping stratergy, we piss people off so they don't come too close, blame them for it, and retire gracefully into our little world. Only popping out for food, drink and laundry.

Dave

la ti da aint this my life these days.... sorry if i sound a tad bitter... but i'm fed up as per my other posts...

how do i get my partner to recognize this will not stop until he stops brushing this under the rug and minimizing this without dumping his ass??

He is the KING of yelling at me "look at your own behaviour - dont blame others for what you dont want to do for/within yourself" while he is in the process of denying his own behaviour!!! it just galls me.. his hypocrisy...and then when I ask him to specifically indicate what exactly it is that I am doing that is a problem for him he cannot describe it. He just gets all general and vague and theoretical.. and I can go to him "i do not want to put up with your verbal abuse" and he just goes on and on all theoretical and stuff... it is so appalling... this has been "our issue" for ages.. he just acts and reacts but has no clue that it is NOT me that is causing his emotions.

He went on this retreat a few months ago claiming he was a "changed man" but oh how things have reverted back to the usual so quickly when I had a big problem and he could not cope with it.

P

 

[PAS]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do survivors, during these times, feel bad about being mean to their loved ones? And do they spend half the time thinking/worrying about these bad situations like the partners do. Even as I try to stay in the "working zone", I'm angry that my mind and heart are constantly worried about him all day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh yes, I'd feel bad, but I'd get over it with a fantasy, thinking about which tires to use on the 4x4 at the weekend, all the 'important stuff'

It's a great defence and coping stratergy, we piss people off so they don't come too close, blame them for it, and retire gracefully into our little world. Only popping out for food, drink and laundry.

Dave

la ti da aint this my life these days.... sorry if i sound a tad bitter... but i'm fed up as per my other posts...

how do i get my partner to recognize this will not stop until he stops brushing this under the rug and minimizing this without dumping his ass??

He is the KING of yelling at me "look at your own behaviour - dont blame others for what you dont want to do for/within yourself" while he is in the process of denying his own behaviour!!! it just galls me.. his hypocrisy...and then when I ask him to specifically indicate what exactly it is that I am doing that is a problem for him he cannot describe it. He just gets all general and vague and theoretical.. and I can go to him "i do not want to put up with your verbal abuse" and he just goes on and on all theoretical and stuff... it is so appalling... this has been "our issue" for ages.. he just acts and reacts but has no clue that it is NOT me that is causing his emotions.

He went on this retreat a few months ago claiming he was a "changed man" but oh how things have reverted back to the usual so quickly when I had a big problem and he could not cope with it.

P

 

[lindts]

PAS, just remember that when he gets all generalized and vague about what "your" problem is.. it's just proof that it's really all about him and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you, otherwise he could be specific. Chances are, the things that he thinks are wrong with you, are probably his own flaws. Heck, just keep realizing how lucky "he" is to have someone so supportive to put up with his ups and downs.
I am just amazed, or should I use livid, at how spiteful and mean my bf can be when he lapses back. It's like he turns into the incredible hulk and some of the hurtful stuff is downright laughable (i.e. he says he has a problem with every one of my friends at work.) I am currently telling myself to wait it out like last time even though the patience is killing me. But like you, I am totally angry at the idea that he is the one acting selfish and childish, yet I'm the one who is trying to make everything better.
I am starting to realize though, that when the irrationalism starts to set in (even though sometimes I don't realize it at first), I pretty much try to leave him alone (luckily we live an hour apart) because there is no way of winning the argument in his state of mind. Even if I said the sky is blue, he will get totally angry and insist that it was green during his bad periods.
Hang in there and smile.. I always gain strength from your insightful posts.

 

[PAS]

>>>>PAS, just remember that when he gets all generalized and vague about what "your" problem is.. it's just proof that it's really all about him and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you, otherwise he could be specific.

I forget this.. i tend to get sucked in and my own issues/insecurities flare..

Next time.. next time.. I will try to remind myself to stay grounded... it is hard when it goes from generalities into verbal abuse. I will try so hard just to not GO THERE and walk away when he starts acting like a dickhead.

It had just been such a long time (over 6 months) since this happened I was just thrown for such a loop.

>>>Heck, just keep realizing how lucky "he" is to have someone so supportive to put up with his ups
and downs.

I'll try to remind myself of that next time. I guess I just have so much of my own insescurity due to my verbal abuse history it is hard.

>>>>I am just amazed, or should I use livid, at how spiteful and mean my bf can be when he lapses back. It's like he turns into the incredible hulk and some of the hurtful stuff is downright laughable (i.e. he says he has a problem with every one of my friends at work.)

I HEAR YOUU!!!!!!!! THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS TO ME TOO!!!!!

Lets see.. what did he say this time:

I was no better than my abusive dad - that I was just like him, walked, talked, sounded like, etc..

I had an anger and anxiety problem (duuh! thats a real big secret.. NOT! and did he think yelling at me and blaming me for it is going to help resolve it?)

I was in total denial of my own issues

I was just like his mother did not want to listen to him or hear his point of view

I dont put any effort into my recovery because I haven't seen my shrink since before Xmas (I have seen her once and she has been hard to schedule due to other commitments)

He had "further proof" that I did not want to work on myself because I cancelled an appointment 2 weeks ago (I rescheduled it as I had to go to the east coast for a work trip)

I dont get it.


>>>>But like you, I am totally angry at the idea that he is the one acting selfish and childish, yet I'm the one who is trying to make everything better.


>>>>I am starting to realize though, that when the irrationalism starts to set in (even though sometimes I don't realize it at first), I pretty much try to leave him alone (luckily we live an hour apart) because there is no way of winning the argument in his state of mind. Even if I said the sky is blue, he will get totally angry and insist that it was green during his bad periods.

YES THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>>>Hang in there and smile.. I always gain strength from your insightful posts.

Thanks. Now its my turn to get strength from you.

The big question is how the (P*&(*& do I calm myself down now? I have been in an ugly, uncomfortable anxiety attack for over a week now.. Ugh it is so awful. I feel terrible. So tired. I cannot believe I have not had a heart attack or some horrible cold as I barely sleep more than 3 hours per night. I fall asleep sitting in a car or in front of the TV but when I get to bed I cannot calm the (*&( down and I spin and spin..

Part of me really really believes all the shit he says.. because thats the shit that I have been fed my whole life. My dad is a survivor too and I have been verbally harangued like that for my whole life. I just cannot NOT take it personally. Part of me really believes I am flawed, ugly, difficult, temperamental, bitchy, and overall just a horrid horrid unloveable person.

I feel so trapped in my anxiety.

P

 

[stpbb]

anxiety!!!!!

boy oh boy, did you hit on my current area of work on myself!

I moved & have been at quite a distance from my ex bf & have found that the anxiety that I have experienced in the relationship has continued in reaction to other issues in my life. So I went in for therapy to deal specifically with the anxiety.

Some ideas -- my therapist has helped make me a relaxation tape. It is really helpful -- basic deep breathing, guided meditation types of techniques. I have an anti-anxiety med that I take if needed, but try to avoid. Avoid excessive caffeine, plus all the basic self-care stuff (food, sleep, etc) and exercise. She also recommended a workbook, I can get you the title if you are interested.

From a distance, I am seeing how my anxious response has made things matter that really don't and made me more sensitive to things that I would be in my more rational frame of mind. When I feel stable and secure myself I dont get so caught up in his dramas & dysfunction. I checked in and read the posts here & was thinking about how I feel about my ex. I am much more optimistic & much less judgmental of his choices and setbacks when I am not experiencing the fallout up close. I also really think that it is not only him, but the dysfunction of his surroundings & relationships that added to the overall sense of instability leading to insecurity leading to anxiety when I was still living so close. So Im more sympathetic because I see him suffering with those relationships as well & also having less emotional stability because of them.

Anyway, the therapist I'm working with now has encouraged me to work hard to lower my overall anxiety level and says that helps with both the frequency & intensity of attacks.

As for you right now PAS, I cant help but think medication! Five days, bad sleep, yikes! Is there an MD you can talk to about a short-term solution so you can get a break from the stress? Or maybe even a sleeping pill & a day off work? Your household has been disrupted, you are preparing for your marriage, there are loads of stressors on you & really I can see why youd be extremely stressed & anxious. I think youll feel better about the whole situation with your partner if you can get your brain off overload & have a real rest!

And if that fails, I have found that the work of the German philosopher, Gadamer, always puts me to sleep!!

-BB.

 

[Lloydy]

Luckily my behaviour was different, I didn't get into rages or bawl my wife out. I'd just retreat and get spiteful. Not nice either.

But oh boy do I recognise everything else you guys say ! ALL the 'drivers' seem the same, the excuses are the same, the tunnel vision is the same and so is the worst kind of selfishness.

I'd throw the most hatefull shit back at my wife, knowing full well that it would hurt deeply. Then, and only then, did I feel like the scumbag I truly believed I was.

Victim thinking, I was going for the "poor me" vote every time.

Dave