How we learned to be men

How we learned to be men
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EGL

Registrant
One of the interesting things I read in Mike Lew's "Victims No Longer" book was that as we reached adolescence, we began to focus more and more on the adult men in our lives to understand and learn what being a man is all about. It made me think of some of the primitive tribesmen we see on Discovery channel shows, where the young boys are taught how to be productive men of the tribe in order to benefit the entire tribe; the same held true for young girls, who were instructed by the women of the clan.

I guess the reason this seemed interesting to me, is that I don't feel like I ever "learned" how to be a man. I know that sounds dumb, but it's true. Sure, I know how to mow the yard, make babies, hold a job, etc. But I really had no positive male role models in my life to learn "the big stuff" from. What it means to be a man.

I don't really feel like a man, whatever that is. I just feel kind of robotic, in a sense. I find it very difficult to talk to men either one on one or in a group setting. It's like I really don't know what to say, even when we have things in common.

Any of this making any sense? I feel like there was some tribal stuff I was supposed to learn that I never did.
 
I have no great insights to offer. But I can say this: I agree with you 100%. I had no positive male role models in my daily life. Even today, at 51, I find it very nervewracking and uncomfortable to interact with even one man, let alone several.

Tom
 
Eddie,

Same holds true for me. Any males in my formative years were in no way whatsoever role models.

Men make me nervous more so in groups than one on one. Because when I'm in a group, I'm too busy studying everybody to see where I stand that it makes the whole thing a fiasco.

There is one guy at work I really get along with. He's married with kids whereas I am single. But he accepts me just the way I am. We take breaks together and shoot the s*** and I realize he likes me. Very strange feeling. But I am getting more comfortable with him. Kind of a nice feeling. With most guys, I kinda think I have weirdo tatooed on my forehead.

Marc
 
Robert Bly talks about that very thing in his "Iron John" book. Something to the effect that, since the industrial revolution, boys have been taught how to be men by their mothers, because the men were off at the factories and such.

For me, I was so enmeshed with my mother that I felt quite feminine, and tried to compensate for this in high school by acting tough. Anger seems to be the only accepted emotion for men, so I chose that one, and was quite a hostile teenager. (I was angry about a number of things.)

So anyways, yes, I find referring to myself as a "man" makes me uncomfortable. I've just never been able to think of myself as one in my years as an adult. And being still so tied-in with my parents increases a sense that I never grew up.

Howard

PS: Just wanted to add that I visited my father at his house today. But I actually find it excruciating to be alone with him. Immensely uncomfortable. And, as far as hanging out with other guys, I always feel like I don't show very much of myself. I'm much more comfortable around women. I feel I can talk to some of them about the abuse - I would never tell any male friend about that stuff.
 
You have hit the nail on the head. Being around other men is such hard work for me. I feel like I am always on watch.

That is one of the things I love about the retreats. The men there are so easy to be around. They all know from the beginning that I have been abused and a thick layer of hiding does not need to be maintained.

I have had a few friends like that. Hopefully as my healing continues, the tribal knowledge will grow.

Ken
 
It seems that a lot of us here have missed out on that role model while growing up... - myself included

My dad hardly even knew that I existed untill I was ready to drive - I don't totaly blame him though - he worked 60-80 hours every week to keep things together in the family - and mom sure did'nt make that easy, so he was often drunk when he was home so he did'nt have to put up with her - and it did'nt help any that she taught me at a very young age a very physical lesson of what would happen if Dad ever complained about me bothering him - so i knew to leave him alone...

I find myself now looking deep into friends relationships w/ their kids trying to understand all of the things that I missed out on while I was growing up (which is very hard to do without people thinking your some kind of weirdo)

To look at myself as a man - that's something I can't do yet - I often feel like a 5 year old stuck in a 32 y/o body - it is a very true fact that there are a lot of lessons that need to be passed along from father to son - it is very hard to try to go back and learn these lessons on your own

I do feel very much out of place in bigger groups of men - am slowly getting more comfortable in one on one settings though...

Mike Lew's "Victims No Longer" was the first survivor recovery book I ever read - perhaps it's time for me to go back and re-read...
 
I have always had a strong male role model, yet I still have no idea what it means to be a man. SOme of my Dad's teaching, passed from his Dad, are total bullshit. For instance, "Being a man means never having to say you're sorry." To my way of thinking, it takes more of a man to admit his fallability and apologize when he should. Also, my Grandfather, who died when I was 1, told his children that men rulew the roost. The father was the ultimate authority, even over the mother. THank God Dad didn't believe in all that garbage. I am pretty sure my Grandfather and I would not see eye to eye on many points.
Casey
 
The older I've gotten, the easier it is for me to be around men -- in fact socialize in general. I still have moments of high anxiety, but more and more I've started to realize that I'm no stranger than any other guys. For years I thought I was the most bizarre person in the world. Now I know I'm just regular bizarre, and some men and some women will accept and like me. And some men and women won't. :)
 
Wow. This is a big one.

Much of what has been said already resonates within me.

I don't know where I learned how to be a man, but I definitely got a variety of messages and examples from different people.

From my father I learned that men don't talk about things, that they read and work a lot and can be very distant.

From my mother I learned that men do not cry, that they should be gentlemen,and that they are interested in sex.

From my big brother I learned that men are big and mean. Laugh in the face of pain...yours or someone else's.

From school I learned that boys don't behave as well as girls do, and that they are not as smart as girls. Boys are better at physical things and at humor.

So I'm screwed. I'm not, as a boy, as smart or as kind as women. (Let me add that this assertion became doctrine by the time I reached graduate school. Really.)

As I man, I'm not as big and strong as a man should be, and I don't laugh at what guys find funny.

I'm grateful to my first therapist for bringing me to a place where I could trust myself, but I still left him. I think one reason was that he was a man.

I have been much more comfortable around women. The support group I went to was facilitated by a woman, and I was seeing a woman therapist at the same place. They were great.

I remember the first time I went to that support group, my greatest fear was that there would be all these guys more masculine than me. (In fact, there was only one other person, and he was more athletic. But the group varied, and my self image was developing at the same time as I started running.)

When I finished therapy, the last question my therapist asked me was whether I was comfortable around other men now. This question caught me off guard because it had not been a major, explicit issue. But I guess she had heard enough comments from me to wonder. (She's really sharp.)

So I told her that among men I was less among equals, but I could deal with it (whatever all that means.)

I can't look at myself as masculine.

To me, the most masculine people I know are also the biggest jerks. I've chosen not to be a jerk.

I just wish I could still be a man, feel like one.

Chances are, if I could see myselfr from someone else's viewpoint, I could see my own masculinity more easily. But my family very effectively convinced me that I was puny, weak, effiminite.

When I became a teenager, I became a little bit more masculine, and even started taking karate lessons. It was great. My Big brother couldn't pick on me anymore.

As I worked out and puberty did it's work, I finally began to feel and look masculine.

That's when my Mom fondled me. :(


(The pseudo masculinity in me is very tempted to delete this whole thing and forget it. That's a good sign I should keep it here.)


whatever
 
I had a strong father and role models around, but I guess it doesn't make that much difference, yes, I am the same, I always query men's motives subconsciously "suss them out".

It is a pity, because we even lose friendship that way too, although I have male friends, most are ones I've known for many years.

You never can "feel like a real man" even if that is the image you project.

When SA happens in childhood it takes away the mold made for you, and replaces it with a totally different mold, so it confuses you right through adult life.

ste
 
Crappy role models were everywhere in my teenage years.
Abusive older boys and teenagers, betraying headmaster and shitty teachers.
By the time I left school I was delinquent, and naturally gravitated to others like myself.
We drank too much, used drugs, stole cars and were generally hooligans.
My dad was good, but weak. My older brother was also a good person, but he was in Canada.
As an engineering apprentice we were expected to be 'hard' and the guys I learned from taught me everything I knew, and still I knew nothing!

It's only in the last few years that I've moved on and gained new friends, new role models in a lot of cases.

Dave
 
Hmm very interesting. Please forgive the following rambelings becaues I'm new to this understanding stuff but almost every thread I read could have been written about me.

I always thought my issues with interacting with men came from the fact that my father, although physically present, was emotionally not around. The only thing he ever really tought me was how I'd be punished when I was bad. My 4 older brothers weren't much help either. Three of them were 10+ years older and none ever had any time for me which easly fed my feelings of worthlessness.

Now that I'm beginning to realize what the SA did to my mind, I figure that must have played a roll. Both of my abusers were men. I always attracted men... the wrong type of men. For a long time I thought I was gay then, when I discovered women, I figured I was Bi because I would still act out with men. Further, in reading the other posts in this thread, even those of you with strong male influence have the same issues.

Is it a result of the SA or do all men have have a problem interacting with other men?

I actually have a close male friend (straight as far as I know) to whom I just told of my SA. He was very supportive. Perhaps I'll ask him if he ever feels uncomfortable interacting with men.

I just began reading Mothers, Sons & Lovers by Michael Gurian, which is a book about how a man's relationship with his mother affects the rest of his life. The introduction talks about becoming a man in the tribe and how that doesn't exist anymore. Has anyone read it? I'll let you know when I finish.

BTW, in a previous post I said I was a GREAT father. As I just screemed at my 4 yr old because he won't go to bed, I realized that I need to revise that statement. The jury is still out as to the Greatness of my fatherhood but I'm damn sure better than my father was.

Dave
 
This wound to our feeling of maleness seems a common one and the one that causes a heck of a lot of pain for us.

Michael Gurian write a lot of excellent books. I am sure this will be as good as all his others. He wrote A FINE SON. In a way, I think that helps us see what a son is like and what kind of man we can become. I recommend that one too.

I liked FIRE IN THE BELLY, but I forget the name of the guy who wrote it--it is similar to IRON JOHN.

For what it is worth, as an older man, who has been working at the issues of SA for quite a long time, I see great men here, men who are real and open and generous, and many of whom like music, art, acting etc. I think this is a big part of being fully male.

Bob
 
One of the things I forgot to mention, was that my older brother, father and my sister always protected me, possibly overprotected me, my younger brother who I always protected, protected me in later life.

Overprotection can sometimes really agravate you, even if it is well meant it can stifle, I now feel I am overprotective to others.

This brings it's own probs

ste
 
When it comes to deciding what makes a man a man I am not sure I can give much insight to this issue. I can tell you that if you are making your decision based on societies views you will come out short handed. There are so many things that corrupt people because of the way society believes. Saying that boys should be one way and girls should be another is ridiculous. We all should be able to be who we are and not pressured to be what others think we should be. I believe that being a man is simply to take responsibility to lead your life down what ever roads that will make you happy while spreading as much love and goodness as possible. Asking the question what is a man, or how do you be a man is like asking the question what is normal and how do you be normal. I think that it's all in how you look at it. If being a man to you is wearing dresses and playing with Barbies who is to say that is incorrect? Basically it is just another label created by society to make things as complicated as possible but having the intention to make things understandable. Me, I would not say that I am a man, I am just me. I am not a world genius and I am surly not what society says a man should be. I am Malidin a person striving to get from one point to another. There is a song by Billy Gilman called Shades of life, it is on his newest album called Music through heart songs. In the song it say's "I am black, I am white, I am all skins in between. I am young, I am old, I am each age that has been. I am scrawny, I am well fed, I am starving for attention. I am short, I am height, I am every frame of stature. The color of earth is greens and browns, the color of hope is rainbows and purple, and the color of peace is people together." The point I am trying to make is these labels do not matter we are all the same, we are people striving for life.
 
I have to admit, around a large group of men, I do tend to get nervous. Maybe it's an instictive reaction, maybe it's taught, but my first move is to "conquor" the group and make myself the one in charge. This usually involves violence, and I am damn scared of fighting. I push past the fear, which is ver, very hard, and do it anyway. I take control of the group, irregardless of the cost to myself. I must always be in control, no matter what type of people, or what group I am in. I guess violence is bred into me, although I hope not. Please offer comments, suggestions, etc of what is wrong with me. I tried to see a shrink a few times, but none were even close to helping me. Thank you
 
I am not sure completely how I learned to be a man then, because the adult men in my life during childhood and adolescents were the assholes who abused me. I guess it is like what we learn from our parents though. We learn how either we want to be or not want to be. Perhaps I patterned myself to be as much opposite of 'them' as possible. Or perhaps being more raised by my mother and grandmother had influence on who I turn out to be. I am not sure.

leosha
 
I'm 40 something. I was 27 when a woman in a bar referred to me as "a man" and I realized how wrong that sounded.

To this day I'll think of myself as "a guy" before the word "man" comes to mind. I can think of myself as "husband," "father," and lots of other things, but the word "man" doesn't seem to fit.

Thanks,

Joe
 
I don't think that I have ever given it much thought.

Most things we learn by example. I have seen a lot of bad examples and I have seen some good example. I had a fear of those that showed good example, because it just had to go bad.

Just as I was starting on my healing journey and just before I found this site, I read a book on sexual abuse that I had checked out of the library. I read it in one night. I don't remember what it was called but it was a book that was primarily written for women, but it did have one chapter on male victims and a chapter that really struck home to me on how not to be like your negative role model.

That chapter said to emulate someone whose trait you admire would handle the situation, rather than the ones that had so poorly handled it. In retrospect, I think I was doing a bit of that and mostly doing what I would have rather the ones that showed the evil had done instead.

Good people have some bad traits and bad people have some good traits. The trick is picking out the bits and pieces of good traits out of everybody and incorporating those good things into your life. I know that I will never be free of bad traits, but that won't stop me from trying to pick those off one at a time.

I suppose I'm saying all the good and bad influences in my life and my desire to be good have taught me to be the man that I am. This is a continual education and learning experience.

Take care,
Bill
 
I understand this totaly on many fronts.

I have great difficulity in forming relationships with men. I do have however always find my best male freinds are either gay or bi-sexual, and have a kind of efeminate qaulity.

I believe as mixed race child of Afro American/ White Australian blood growing up in a racialy intollerant society, I had the additional problem of having little to no black community to indentify with.

I really feel I had to teach myself not only a/ How to becomme a man but b/ How to accept being a colored man.
 
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