How to open a can of worms

How to open a can of worms

2SaveHim

Registrant
My fiance and I have been together for 4 years and are due to marry in April. Over the years, he has had issues which I now recognize could be his "acting out" which I never put together as related to each other until this morning.

Three years ago, he dated another woman behind my back for almost 3 months. He realized how wrong the relationship was and decided he wanted to be with me and no one else, so he put an end to it over a month before I found out about it. (Remarkably, he never even had sex with the woman, so it was more of an emotional affair.) We love each other very much and worked hard to repair the damage done but I always felt uneasy as though he was hiding things and couldn't be trusted. Eventually I found out that he was into pornography, and I don't mean your typical Playboy type stuff. He has absolutely denied this every time I have found it and comes up with all kinds of crazy explanations for its existence. I found that he had bookmarked erotica sites and I don't object to that, but still he denies he reads that stuff, too.

He had to move for his job and in the course of moving, I found old love letters from girlfriends long past that it almost seemed he wanted me to see. He kept in contact with an old female friend behind my back until I put an end to it and three weeks after he proposed while out of town on business, he had a one night stand with another woman followed by 2 months of back and forth e-mails between them. When I discovered this, he ended the relationship, gave me all his internet passwords, voicemail passwords, etc. and said he would go to counseling if I wanted and do whatever it took to spend the rest of his life with me. He kept beating himself up and saying he didn't deserve me, that he's a failure, etc. and has promised that he loves only me and only wants to be with me.

I started reading all kinds of books on how to affair-proof your marriage, etc. in an attempt to figure out what went wrong with us and what we can do so that we can trust one another again and really fix whatever is wrong. It was strange but (besides his obvious lies and promiscuity) we don't have any of the problems that experts point to as leading to affairs. We fulfill each other's needs and love each other very much. I was perplexed, but we started discussing finding a church to attend together regularly and finding a trusted counselor so we could spend the next year or two working on us and strengthening our bond.

This morning I was on the phone with my future father-in-law. When my fiance's parents divorced, my FFIL got custody of both my fiance and his sister and finished raising them alone. He harbors no bitterness nor any animosity toward my fiance's mother and just recognizes that her alcoholism and mental/emotional issues spelled the end of their marriage. Anyway...it came out during our conversation that the pornography I saw my fiance had was something his father found him with in his teens. His father thought he outgrew it. ALSO, there was strong suspicion that my fiance was sexually abused by his mother as a child. There was never any physical evidence and when they asked my fiance about it, he just never gave them an answer.

Now, any time my fiance calls his mother to say hi for Christmas or Mother's Day (he hasn't been in the same room with her for almost 5 years), he gets all anxious and nervous and it takes him an hour to get up the nerve to call her. Then he calls and runs upstairs with the phone and talks quietly so I don't hear the conversation. Then after he hangs up, it takes him a long time to decompress.

For the first time ever, I'm seeing that this all seems to add up. He has never directed any anger or anything toward me but has only become self-destructive in terms of our relationship be being dishonest, having affairs, etc. I was wondering if anyone has any advice on how to let him know that I'll always be here for him, that this is what I'm seeing, and try to encourage him to be open about it and get help. I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
 
then it probably is a duck.

But it could be something else.
My impression is that your idea could be right, there are a number of behaviours that we as Survivors seem to have.

I 'think' you're doing the right things as well.
Survivors don't react well to being pushed into something, and I hope that you're not actually crossing the fine line between teasing out the truth and pushing him into therapy or something else he's not ready for.
For many reasons we seem to react against being pushed, the abuse was pushed on us for a start.
Also the abuse and the effects we suffer as adults took our sense of self control away from us, and being pushed into something just reinforces that feeling.

If we come to our own decisions and seek help then we seem to stand a far greater chance of success.
By doing it at our pace and in our own time we slowly learn to trust our decisions, and regain our self esteem.

What we do love though is support and encouragement, we can't get enough of that.

It's not a good deal for any partner I'm afraid, but many partners stick with us through some truly awful times. I guess love supplies us with extra strengths.

If he does eventually disclose to you that he was abused then something I've suggested to other partners in similar situations is maybe get Mike Lew's excelent book "Victims No Longer" ( available from Amazon through the 'Bookstore' link at the top of this page, we get a small % as well )
Anyway, get a book like Mike's and leave it lying around where he'll see it, and my bet is he would pick it up and start reading. That way he'll suddenly realise that he isn't alone.

Don't give up, and don't stop supporting him. You'll soon discover where support ends and pushing begins.

Take care
Dave
 
Dave,

So do you think it's better at this point to just start counseling for our relationship (honesty, trust, infidelity issues) and leave the sleeping dog lie until when/if he is ready to deal with it? Just let him know I love him and support him and let it be? I don't want to push him into anything but I am hopeful he will address this before the "acting out" continues to destroy the essentially wonderful relationship we have.

I know it sounds nuts but it has always seemed to me that the other women and the porn were vents of some underlying issue. I would just hate for that activity to continue and create problems. Thank you so much for your input and ideas. I don't want to pressure him but I want to create an environment where he can feel comfortable to open up and address this issue (if in fact it is his issue).
 
2SaveHim...

ALSO, there was strong suspicion that my fiance was sexually abused by his mother as a child. There was never any physical evidence and when they asked my fiance about it, he just never gave them an answer.
It's just a feeling on my part, but wouldn't a child who hadn't been abused by his mother want to defend her from such a serious accusation?

Whether or not your fiance has SA in his past, you see his behavior isn't about a few isolated incidents, but about a self-destructive pattern in your relationship... and from what you write here I'd probably say the same.

The self-destruction of acting out is generally not confined to just one area of life... are his attitudes and patterns like this at work also? With other friends and family members? I don't ask because I think you should start scrutinizing his life... I'm just pointing out that this mindset affects EVERYTHING, and if that's where he is now, that's where your shared life will be too. He's got to be willing to change it because HE is sick and tired of living in self-destruct, otherwise nothing is going to change it.

I'm with Lloydy, I wouldn't advocate actually confronting him or pushing him into therapy to deal with his past... but especially if you guys have found that church, I think you'd both benefit from talking seriously about your shared past and how to keep it from impacting trust and communication in your future. If he is ready, it might be the open door he needs, and if he's not ready, you'll probably know that too.

In my opinion the MOST beneficial thing a partner can do to keep a relationship safe and affirming for the survivor, is not to allow dangerous, unhealthy behavior into the relationship from anyone. Set boundaries for yourself in the relationship that are far away from his acting out--and stick to them. You can't recover from abuse in a relationship that is being abused.
 
SAR,

Thank you for the thoughts. I hadn't really thought of that. If his mother had NOT abused him, I would expect a child to strongly deny something like that going on. That's a really valid point I had not considered.

He really is ready to try counseling or whatever he needs to straighten us out relationship-wise. His career currently has him away from home for weeks at a time but he will be transferring into doing different work and will be coming home every night starting in April so our ability to go to see a counselor on a regular basis will be much better. He has been facing significant difficulties at work but whether that's a function of his work or partially a function of him, I don't really know. He works so much and he's gone so much, he has little opportunity to socialize with his old friends. He talks to them on the phone when he can but he rarely gets together with them to play cards, drink beer, etc. any more. He's very much a man's man in a man's man kind of job so I know there's that tough exterior he tries to maintain. It's on the inside that I fear he's unraveling and I'm trying to find the cause.

This is an e-mail he wrote shortly after his I busted him on his fling last fall:

To the one I love,

I am sorry beyond description for the pain I have caused you. I love you and am willing to do anything to prove that. I will not be in touch with any woman without your knowldge and consent. I very much want my life to be with yours, and I have always wanted that. I need you to be a better me.

I think that I have some very bad habits of separating out things that I don't like in my life just because I have always had to do that to survive. In this case, that skill just served to make my life much much worse. I need to fix myself, but I want to start rebuilding the relationship that you deserve at the same time.

I am sad that I ever had to leave you and that I have let myself get so messed up. I don't feel worthy of you. But I don't want to spend my life with anyone else but you. I know that I can be the person that you deserve and need, but I know that it has been so long since I have felt good about most things in my life except you that it is difficult to see how to get past my mistakes to be with you.

I am sorry that I did not do my job of honoring you and taking care of you. Believe me that if I had ever had the presence of mind to ask that question I would never have done anything wrong. I have felt so far from myself for so long that I think that the only time that I have
felt like the real me was when I was with you or when I talk to you. I feel like I have lost myself in trying to survive all of the crap I have committed to. You are the last shred of decency in my life. Thank you for not forsaking me.

I am sorry. I love you. I am crying but it does not make me feel any better afterward. I sleep but I do not feel rested. What happened to me. They have won. I was not strong enough. I have to try to make the pieces into something worth giving to you. I will try. I wish you knew how much I do love you. I wish I had never had to leave your side. I do not want or need anyone besides you. Please forgive
me and help me take care of you and me.

I must go for now, this is all of the energy that I have for now. I love you and will not betray that or your trust. I will state that to myself every day for the rest of my life. No
matter how screwed up my life is, I will not screw yours up by failing in this.

The man who loves you more than anything in himself.
XXXX

He needs help. He wants me to help him. And now I feel like there's a gorilla on the table that he may or may not be ready to acknowledge. I think the advice you both gave is sage and valuable. I need to let him open this up when he's ready but meanwhile, set clear boundaries regarding porn and other women. I think we can work through that part of it with a counselor. If he's going to vent, he can't drag me down in the muck.
 
I think we can work through that part of it with a counselor.
I might be reading this wrong, but if he wants individual counselling then let him.
I think that releasing the abuse from our pasts is so personal, so tied up with our complete lives, that it sometimes seems impossible to disclose - even to a trusted counsellor.

I went to 1to1 therapy for about 3 or 4 years, and in the early days I said little about to my wife. But what I did say was always respected and believed.
Eventually I said more to her, as my levels of truse increased. Both my trust of her and more importantly myself.
Now we discuss anything, even my scting out sexually with other men and use of porn. It's not easy, but it is effective. I no longer act out and use porn very occassionaly, and out 30 year marriage is now built around total trust.
That's something I lacked for about 25 of those years.

I think he's already started the process, as SAR said, he didn't deny abuse. He recognises that his acting out and porn are something that has no part of YOUR lives, and he's searching around for ways to get out of the cycle.
So don't be afraid of encouraging and supporting him, make time to listen, help him to rationalize his thoughts.

It's asking a hell of a lot, and you will feel anger and rage. You will have doubts and fears.
But the important question you have to ask yourself is -"is our marriage worth it, can I accept things I'd rather not know about?"

If the answer's "yes" - then brace yourself for a rough ride, and look forward to getting back the man you fell in love with.

Dave
 
Lloydy: The counseling he wants us to attend is couples counseling together. He wants us to work on our relationship. He has made no mention of wanting individual counseling, although I agree that it's probably what he needs. If there's stuff that he needs to discuss with a counselor without me, that's fine. I'm not afraid to learn the worst of it when he wants/needs me to. Whatever helps him is what needs to be done. I hope you could see from his words that he's sincere about wanting to do right by me. It's not as if he just ran off and got drunk and ended up in another woman's bed and wants me to put up with it. I often think he's harder on himself than I am on him.

We're both highly educated, successful professionals who have not been able to brain out why he would cheat on me or why the need for the porn. I haven't let on, nor will I, that I suspect that he was abused. Should I let the marital counselor put it together and talk to him about one-on-one counseling? I'm not sure that, if he was in fact abused, that he relates what happened to him as a child to his "acting out" as an adult, so I don't know that he'll seek help for it. He seems convinced that counseling as a couple is the way to go.

Even with all the bad stuff, and I know there will be worse, I can't imagine life without this man. Our life together is really so good. If this is the problem we have to face every day for the rest of our lives, so be it. He was in one of the buildings hit on 9/11. I thought I lost him once. He stood by me through some dark times, too. I'm not going to lose him to a problem he did not create.

The thought I've been tossing around now is that maybe having children is out of the question for us. It's not that I fear that he would become an abuser but more that I wonder and worry whether having children of his own would be a stressor that would trigger negative responses. On the other hand, children of his own for whom he can provide a safe, loving household might be therapeutic in a way. In any event, if I have to give up children, so be it. Whatever it takes. I don't say that lightly. I say it with the full conviction that I know he would do the same for me.

We're still relatively young. We have never had sexual problems together. Maybe he doesn't remember the worst of it or has suppressed memories. I don't know but I think there's hope for us to face this challenge earlier rather than after 25 years of marriage, as you had to do. I'm just trying to find a way to get us headed in the right direction. Thank you again.
 
We're both highly educated, successful professionals who have not been able to brain out why he would cheat on me or why the need for the porn.
I fell into this trap as well, I though I was smart enough to 'brain' my out by myself.
The trouble is I would think of the same answers to the same questions time after time. And if they didn't work the first time, why were they likely to work the next time?
Of course they didn't.

What I needed was a fresh input, new ideas, challenging questions, and encouragement to think outside my limited scope. Therapy did that for me.

We've been married for 30 years, I'm 51 and my wife is a few years older than me. Our big regret is that we have no children.
She's very maternal, so good with kids. But I haven't got a clue what to do with them.
I don't dislike them, I just have a fear of them, or rather a fear that I will fail them.
Becoming an abuser myself was never a fear, however distorted my sexual thoughts became.
I just had so much trouble looking after myself that kid's were not an option.

That's a terrible legacy of abuse, but having kids should not be seen as a possible cure. ( I don't think you're implying that though )

Dave
 
We're both highly educated, successful professionals who have not been able to brain out why he would cheat on me or why the need for the porn.
I'm in 12 Step recovery and we have a terrific saying that applies to the above quote : "My best thinking is what got me here." ("here" as in - sitting in an 12 Step meeting with a problem I cannot solve by myself ...)

For me, as a survivor, recovering from SA is about feelings - fear, self-loathing, mis-trust, shame, pain, pain avoidance, guilt, rage, despair, emptiness - the list goes on and on. Yes, eventually I do have to use my brain to learn my own truth and learn how to function better, but thinking my way through this shit NEVER worked because the very foundations of my thought processes are messed up from the abuse.

What finally began to change my life (and not coincidentally, my thinking) was going deep into my feelings with a 1-on-1 therapist who helped me put some sort of order into my emotional chaos.

By the way, for whatever this is worth : my recovery finally began when the person I depended on to hold my life together LEFT ME, through death. I'm not suggesting you leave him, but what I am very sure about is that as long as I could turn to somebody else to put a band-aid or two on all my massive emotional hemorrhages, I did not get better not did I have to.

A specific suggestion : Go see a good therapist yourself, alone. I'm not proposing that the SA issue itself lies with you, but you need a place to sort all this out without the pressure of couples counseling, since that has an intrinsic bias that "we" are going to work on this "together".

And now, for my pure gut response, again, take this for whatever it's worth : My mother (who was *not* my perpetrator) developed full-blown paranoid schizophrenia within a few weeks of my abuse. I don't think they were connected, she had been displaying signs of deteriorating mental health for months prior, but her total loss of control when I needed stability, needed to talk to someone, anyone about what had happened to me, certainly compounded the damage from my SA. I still struggle with the false belief that somehow my abuse caused her to crack up. Maybe something similar is going on with your fiance - he could very well have been abused by his mother, or abused by someone else then turned to his mother who just made things worse - active alcoholics are notoriously self-centered, EVERYTHING is about them, their needs, pain, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. All of which are the very LAST things a newly abused boy needs.
 
I am so glad I posted. Everything in response has been so valuable. Thank you so much.

Dave - I totally agree...braining it out ourselves isn't solving anything. OK Maybe not totally true. I have at least been able to identify that he may have been abused and that he very likely needs individual counseling. I can see the kind of help we need, so that's a good step for me.

I'm sorry you and your wife didn't have the opportunity to have children. My fiance and I have discussed children and he has expressed that he would very much like to have one or two children. In fact, he seems more enthusiastic about having children than I am when we discuss it. But when we're at other couples' houses and they have little ones, he refers to them at "little critters" or "rugrats" and he's not the get-down-on-the-floor-and-play-with-them type. I wouldn't say he's afraid of them but more that he doesn't seem to understand them. I'm pretty much the same way though I worked in an educational field for several years. I've always been more comfortable with older children than tiny tikes, so I think he might be the same way. Now I wonder if he fears them or if he can handle parenthood. Every man is different, though, and those are questions that I rightly need to put to him. I've been on the fence about having children but he's been more in favor of it but I've never understood why since he has never seemed crazy about them in general. I'm glad you understand what I was saying. Not that we would have kids as a therapy tool but that if he wants them and can provide them the safety he didn't have, perhaps there would be a bit of coming full circle that might help in his own path to healing someday. I have no intention of pushing kids on him if it's more than he can handle, though.

ShyBear - I certainly hope not to be putting band-aids on my fiance to hold him back from the fire he's going to have to walk through to work on getting better. I don't want to push him into individual counseling, much as I think it would help him, because he has to want that himself. At the same time, I'm hoping he doesn't wait until the world crashes down around him to make that happen. I think your idea that I see a counselor is a good one in that it will help me to set boundaries so that his acting out doesn't deteriorate our relationship and to help me maintain my will to love him but not be a crutch that he uses to avoid addressing his real issues in therapy.

As Dave said, what a terrible legacy. I think it's horrible that such selfish acts perpetrated against victims in their youths continues to victimize them so many years later by keeping them from those who really do love them. It seems like the victims are doomed to be alone or feel alone or try to heal alone.

It makes me think of a woman in labor. Her husband can be there for her holding her hand as she goes through the pain but only she can suffer and do all the pushing. He can want to share in it and relieve her of the burden, but it's hers to bear and all he can do is offer encouragement and love and hope she has the strength to get through. There's no turning back. It's a path she has been set on and to get to happiness and resolution of pain, she has to stay the course.

All I can do is sit him down and say that pornography...other women...not going to be tolerated. Even if it means a separation for a period of time as punishment until he can get his crap together. If he wants counseling, I'm going to suggest that the problem seems to me to lie more with him as an individual and that I prefer we start seeing counselors separately first. Here's a question I may have alluded to earlier: is it possible that he doesn't remember the abuse? Could it be that he knows something is wrong but really doesn't know why he acts out? I'm curious because, if that's the case, wouldn't it be better for me to suggest to him that based on all these factors I have deduced that perhaps he was abused in his youth or is that just pushing him towards therapy (which I should NOT do)? I just can't imagine casually buying Mike's book and having it lying around hoping it sparks conversation. Just having that book AROUND, he'll know that I know. That's definitely not the kind of book we'd normally have lying out on the coffee table.

I should be able to talk to him this weekend but I won't get to see him again physically until next week. Much as it would be nice to sweep everything under the rug and pretend nothing's wrong, I can't do that with him. He reads me like a book. I'm going to have a hard time pretending that I don't know what his problem is. Quite frankly, I can't see what else it could be but this. Maybe I should go through my boundaries with him and leave it at that. I'm not sure if I should ignore the abuse issue as though I haven't thought of it and continue to play stupid ("Gee, hon, not sure what could be causing you to do this stuff!") or just put Mike's book out and if he asks about it, admit to reading it and tossing out there that maybe he should read it. Is that fair? Is that pushy? If I gently said that he seems to exhibit some of the characteristics of adults who were abused as children is that too far? Because even if he denies it, as I suspect he will, I could just say that I'm going to start seeing a counselor and he can do what he wants but no more violations of the boundaries of our relationship.

Sorry my posts are so lengthy. Some of this is me tossing my thoughts out for feedback. In our relationship, he likes to joke that I'm always right and have good ideas so his ears are always open to my thoughts on things. He respects my advice and often takes it, as I do his, so there's part of me that feels like if I don't give him my honest opinion, I'm doing him a disservice by pulling a punch. I really do think that with a lot of reading and study, I might have suspected abuse on my own without his father's input. Honestly, I was thinking that maybe one of his parents cheated on the other so he grew up thinking that was OK. (FFIL says that there was no cheating in the marriage, though.) So I was suspecting that this stuff was rooted in his formative years but had started barking up a wrong tree in terms of specifically what the problem was. I want to do what's best for him but I'd also like to be honest with him and then leave it to him without pushing from me to start taking steps in the right direction. Is that right? I'm not scared to talk to him about anything but I just want to get it as right as I can.

Thanks again for everyone sharing. All your thoughts and suggestions have meant a great deal to me. Nobody pays you for this and you don't even know me and yet you've all helped me so much. You've got so much crap to deal with yourselves and here you all are online giving virtual hugs filled with wisdom to a fool like me who has little concept of how over her head she is. It means a lot to me. I'm really grateful.
 
All I can do is sit him down and say that pornography...other women...not going to be tolerated. Even if it means a separation for a period of time as punishment until he can get his crap together.
(Emphasis mine ....)

You are absolutely within your rights to set your own bondaries, but doing so as punishment muddies the water and entangles you in his stuff. In addition, if he *is* an SA survivor, you cannot possibly punish him more than he punishes himself. When I feel the desire to punish, it usually means I am very angry, and under that, very hurt. But the anger & hurt belong to me - punishing is just a distraction.

is it possible that he doesn't remember the abuse?
Based on what I have read, yes it is quite possible, but that is not my own experience. I never forgot my abuse, I just had no context in which to understand it.

Young men - late teens, early twenties, both straight & gay, often play a one-upmanship game about who lost his virginity first. I *always* won, because I "had sex" (read : was sexually abused) at age eleven.

Think about that for a second - I used my abuse to win a stupid testosterone-fueled ego game ?!?!?! That's because I did not grasp what the abuse even WAS, let alone what harm it had done to me - it was not forgetfullness, rather TOTAL CLUELESSNESS.

However, my not understanding what happened to me did NOT protect me from the damage SA did. It took me years to understand that I was manipulated, then abused, then discarded like a used condom, then shamed and then finally - silenced. As I grew older, shame became so pervasive that it simply turned into the canvas upon which my life was painted. And silence became my quickest defense mechanism - "If I just don't talk about it, maybe it'll go away ..."

So, to answer your question as to whether he may not remember - it is quite possible, if you can accept that "remembering" also requires a context in which to frame the memory.
 
Poor choice of words on my part. Separation would be the consequence of his violation of my relationship boundaries. This would, of course, be giving him some space to get his crap together, but I do think that any negative consequence as a result of that he will perceive as a punishment, even if I don't use that word. I could scream at him, withdraw sexually, stop talking to him, move out...I think he'd view it as my punishing him. I would prefer separating for some time because I think that if he has not sought help through therapy that maybe my removing myself from the situation would allow him on his own to realize how messed up his life has become and take steps to do something about it. I'd be leaving him alone to decide if he wants to try to be healthier and what to do to make that happen which would leave him with ultimate control over the situation. I'm hopeful that when we talk about counseling next week that he'll choose to go into individual counseling as I will.
 
2SH

There was a thread about this a little while back
wouldn't it be better for me to suggest to him that based on all these factors I have deduced that perhaps he was abused in his youth
https://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000865

I think some survivors might have fantasies of being "caught" or "discovered"-- that this would be a way for them to let go of the secret without the risk of starting the conversation. It probably fuels some acting-out behavior, I think it certainly does for kids. But part of real healing is about looking to solve our problems in the real world, trusting our real friends and family for help, not creating imaginary scenarios that give us control over everyone else's reaction. I'm pretty sure that no one who's actually been "discovered" had it turn out the way they'd planned.

I thought this too
his ears are always open to my thoughts on things. He respects my advice and often takes it, as I do his, so there's part of me that feels like if I don't give him my honest opinion, I'm doing him a disservice by pulling a punch.
and for me, a lot of this thinking was really about my own fears and need for control, when I unwrapped it a bit. One night I read something on this forum from a survivor who said that partly because of his wife's intellegence and strength, he'd fallen into a pattern of shutting down and withdrawing his own ideas from the conversation once she started giving advice. It really kicked me in the ass and made me look for ways I might be interrupting or invalidating my boyfriend's opinions that were different from my own. It's easy to micro-manage this sort of stressful emotional situation to try and get a handle on it, but we have to let the survivor take the wheel even if we don't particularly like the view from the passenger seat.


ShyBear,
Young men - late teens, early twenties, both straight & gay, often play a one-upmanship game about who lost his virginity first. I *always* won, because I "had sex" (read : was sexually abused) at age eleven.

Think about that for a second - I used my abuse to win a stupid testosterone-fueled ego game ?!?!?!
You're not the only one who did this. My boyfriend talked about his abuse as "having sex" --this kind of thinking also put him in more than one situation as a teen where he couldn't draw boundaries or say no to unwanted contact in "consensual" situations. It is something he struggles with a lot now :(
 
SAR,

Thanks so much! Reading that other thread was really helpful. So to spite my womanly instincts to reach out to him, to talk, to heal, to stop the pain somehow, I need to keep mum. Just love him and be there but let him deal with it as he needs to.

He wants the couples counseling. I can't steer him into individual counseling because obviously that would be controlling. I'll go to couples counseling with him but I'll also spend time individually in counsel with my priest (who is very young, modern, and worldly...a wonderful counselor) to give me the support to keep quiet, let my fiance fight his own battles, and maintain the boundaries that I am going to set up. I'll leave him alone to deal with the aftermath as he needs to, but he has to keep it from affecting our relationship and my need for fidelity. That's not to say that he'll never act out again but that the boundaries will be set up and should he violate them, we'll burn that bridge when we come to it. Couples counseling should be able to help us talk about those parameters. Much as I'd like him to go to counseling alone, I can't push, so I'll deal with the parts that I CAN deal with for now. Maybe when he sees me going to counseling alone it will inspire him to do the same. Wishful thinking on my part, I know.

I have to say that I'm so GLAD that my FFIL told me about the abuse. You see, before I saw my fiance's acting out as being all about me. I wasn't pretty enough, smart enough, young enough...obviously I wasn't meeting his needs somehow and I thought that if only I were a better partner, this wouldn't be happening. It's both a blessing and a curse that it has nothing to do with me at all. He's not trying to drive me away or find something elsewhere that he's not getting at home. It's about what happened to him long ago. On one hand, that's a relief. On the other, it's terrible because I feel like that means there's nothing I can do about it. And truthfully, this is his battle and there IS nothing I can do. Just be patient, love him, and be there for him. He may go to his grave never telling me and I just have to reconcile myself with the fact that his pain may be something he doesn't want to share. It's hard to watch someone you love hurting and not want to do something about it. I guess I need to rewire myself to remember that I am doing something by being quiet, patient, loving, and strong.

So when I see him next, the discussion will be about the boundaries and our working to keep him from violating the trust in our relationship with the porn and other women. That is the one area where I'm directly affected and we need to do what we can to stop it. There are times when this feels so consuming and I feel down thinking of the acting out and the problems it has created. It sounds crazy but all this negative stuff is only a small part of who were are as a couple. Waking up next to him is a blessing. I help keep him organized (he's a packrat and a nutty professor who loses the glasses sitting on his head) and he treats me like a queen. We laugh, play, deal with day-to-day drudgery, and life is good. There's nobody I'd rather do it all with. If this is his problem to deal with, that's fine. He just has to stop letting it violate the boundaries of our relationship.
 
Good words, and true for me too:
We laugh, play, deal with day-to-day drudgery, and life is good. There's nobody I'd rather do it all with. If this is his problem to deal with, that's fine. He just has to stop letting it violate the boundaries of our relationship.
Keep us posted. :)
 
Unfortunately, as empathetic, compassionate and intelligent people, we tend to rationalize the cause of the sin, instead of instituting the appropriate punishment for the sin itself. The lienency allotted to those who continue to CRUSH the trust we so tenatively lend is frequently taken for granted.
For this man, it has become a challange to keep you. Smart people get bored. He thinks he can keep pushing the boundaries with you and you will understand. He is playing you. What's next... the twin brunettes next door?
Manipulation can take many forms. He no longer reflects on you as an individual with inherent, intrinsic value and rights. To infidel as he has, to him,you are a non-person. You are worthy of effort only when backed into a corner. Of how many women do you not know?
Regardless of the driving force behind the "affairs", his actions were BAD. He acted without hesitation or consideration, repeatedly. The resulting consequence caused only you pain.
My gut reminds me words are words but action is the ultimate loud speaker.
We deserve to be treated as equals in every manner. Relationships are supposed to be equally balanced. Women need to evaluate potential mates as they would a business venture. What can you/have you done to/for me?
Don't settle.
Never give in, never give in...In anything great or small, never give in.
 
stacy,
as a male survivor who has acted out (though never had affairs), i can tell you that most men here deeply struggle with things they cannot understand untill many years of working through the confusion and the terror directly. it is true that some manipulate others intentionally...these are typically the abusers who violated innocents, not the men who are struggling with the aftermath of the terror and shame they cannot identify. what motivates our acting out? it is different for all of us and contingent on our specific details. however, for survivors, it is working through the terrors of the nights we experienced, not playing our partners. yes, i acted out and greiviously harmed the one i loved. boundaries and trust were violated...but they were never manipulated.
 
Just wanted to post an update. In a certain sense, it seems crazy because I think real progress will take a very long time but here's where we are so far:

Next time I saw my fiance, I had a serious discussion with him. I set out my boundaries and he agreed wholeheartedly that what I want is fair and he will respect my wishes. He also put forth before I could even do so that the problem isn't with us but with him specifically and that he knows he needs to "fix what's broken" with himself. I didn't mention abuse or anything like that. I told him the truth...that I believe him to really be a good and decent man and that I believe there's some issue deep within him that he has to resolve to protect our relationship or we will forever be at risk of him acting out again. I told him I'll be there for him and try to be a help to him if he wants me to but that I really think he has to straighten himself out.

He said he knows this. This is a function of him, not me and he wants to and needs to face his demons head on and not let them hurt me. He has always fancied himself as the one who protects me from the dark forces of the world and he is deeply troubled that it's forces within himself that threaten me and us the most. He caused me pain. He put me at risk. Not some external force. He sees that and views it for what it is...a force he must reckon with if not for himself then for me. If someone else had hurt me this way, he would have beaten them to a pulp. He likened it to St. George fighting the dragon. I have always loved that image and he collects them for me. He said it was hard for him to see that his battle for me is internal. His biggest risk of losing what we have isn't other men or external forces...it's himself. Made me cry when he said that.

Just this last week, we decided that after we move (in the next few months we're moving across the country for his job) we're going to find a church. He said that more than worship, he always felt the church provided a strong sense of community belonging that he misses. He said he thinks part of the problem has been that he's been isolated from the support system of friends that he had. His job has taken him away from those people he used to be able to talk to and depend on for emotional support. I suggested that after we move maybe it would be helpful for him to establish talking with somebody on a regular basis so that he has a sounding board. Whether it be a priest, counselor, etc. I don't care but a man he respects who can help him sort things out would definitely be a good thing. If he has stuff on his mind he feels like he can't bring up with me, I'd hope he would have a trusted friend or somebody to talk to and hash stuff out rather than let it fester. He said I'd hit the nail on the head and he hopes to find something like that. He didn't say it to impress me. He said it like he needed it. Not that he was proud of it but that he feels like he needs to talk to somebody.

He has made suggestions (counseling for us both) and come up with ideas (joining a couples running group in our new locale, finding a church to attend regularly) and explained them in the context of them giving us a positive support system, positive influences, a sense of community, etc. I think his ideas are great. When I talked about boundaries, I didn't give ultimatums or talk consequences. I talked in terms of "I can't live with less than this," and he is abundantly clear on the issue. We have been talking about all the things we can do to spend more time together, share more interests, etc. From my history with him, I know that when he talks about self-improvement or things we can do together, he's not talking pie-in-the-sky. He takes action. He researches online and figures it out and we actually DO things when we say we will. So yes, we will be finding a church, getting involved in the community and couples-based groups, spending more time reading together, taking a few classes together (foreign language class and dance), etc.

I haven't committed to couples counseling just yet because I'm not sure what good my being in the room will do, but if it's a positive step that could lead to more, then I am much in favor. I just don't know where that could go. It seemed he recognized that he has a problem of some kind but he was afraid to go to counseling alone. But when he discussed it as having "someone to talk to" and left the scary "c" word out of it, then it was OK. Then a few nights ago, he told me he'd made a decision. He wants to do counseling but fears it will have negative repurcussions at work (which it really would). So he decided, all on his own, that this prestigious gig he accepted from them will be his last one working for the company. Even if he takes a big pay cut, and he knows I don't care about that, he's going to find work elsewhere...maybe in a dramatically different field, where seeking counseling won't be viewed as a sign of weakness or mental instability.

To say that this makes me happy is an understatement to say the least. I knew the move would help a little but his complete change of employer will be an incredible boost to his ability to get help when he's ready to and from the sounds of it, he's ready to get some kind of help for something. He hasn't mentioned abuse or anything so I don't either.

About his mother and the wedding...he's scared to have her there. He feels a strong social obligation to have his mother there but there is no other reason for it. I told him to just let me know what he wants to do and if he needs my help, I'm here. I support whatever he decides. He said the other day that he's leaning toward us having the wedding and then stopping in her town for a quick visit like lunch or something so she can meet me.

The topic of children came up. A second woman I know who used the same form of BC I do is PG. With twins. I suggested to him that perhaps I should switch to something more foolproof. The problem is, I love my current method because other methods create medical problems for me. His questions went like this, "You like what you're using now, right?" Me: "Yeah." Him: "And if we had a 'whoops' how would you feel?" Me: "Uh...freaked out but I guess I'd deal with it pretty well. I'd be happy about it once I wrapped my mind around it." Him: "Me too so if we have a 'whoops', it will be a wonderful 'whoops' and we'll be happy for it. I think you should stay with your current BC and if we have a 'whoops' it will just be a blessing. OK?" Me: "But wouldn't you prefer that I decrease the risk or maybe that I'd get rid of it?" Him: "I'd prefer that you be happy and what happens happens." He then proceeded to say that he sees us having daughters but thinks his sister will have sons. And they'll be taller than us and oh, what will we name them since we've always agreed on boys' names but not on girls' names, and how good it would be to have daughters since girls are smarter, anyway, and did I hear his best friend on the phone cooing at his little one and wasn't it wonderful. He sounded like his biological clock was ticking.

Anyway, that's where we are. In May we move and we work on us and he works on himself and maybe we'll have a "whoopsie" or maybe we'll toss the BC when we're bold (I'd really prefer he start more self-improvement with his issues first...not give him more stress) and...well, I don't know. I don't have the answers. We'll see. Life isn't perfect. We'll tackle it all and hope we're doing the right thing like everyone else.

Am I being used? Toyed with? Manipulated? Maybe. There are no guarantees in anything. I'm not sure if anyone else can understand it but I get a LOT out of being with him. I'm older...I've been around...I don't need him in the sense that I have some kind of urgency to settle down with someone. I need him because I need him. I love him because I love him and I believe he loves me back. I think that to spite the bad stuff, we're going to have a happier life than most people will ever know simply because we're in it for each other. He doesn't need to put out the time, effort, or expense to right things and keep me around but he has started and he will continue. I'm sure of that.

We're a great partnership. I've analyzed this to death because I have had to make decisions like, "Should I stick around?" and "Is this worth it?" And ultimately I've had to decide more recently what good I am to him if I can't actively help and maybe would be better off cutting him loose to "act out" without me. I'm walking into this with eyes wide open. I've thought of the risks and the negatives and if things go horribly wrong, I know that I made the decision to stay. For me, walking away isn't doing what's right. It's doing what's easy. I'm not trying to be noble. I'm trying to do what is in my best interest and in his best interest based on what I know of us. Us being together is the right thing. It can't be denied. That sounds like crazy romanticism but you'd have to know us and how we fit to have any understanding. There are no words to describe it. It's surreal. We're two halves of a whole. The term "soul mates" didn't make sense until we met. That is, of course, why the hurt is so deep when something goes awry but it's also why I won't leave.

I understand him better than he does and what I think I know makes so much sense. I feel bad not to talk to him about it but I understand why it's right not to at this point. That's what's hard. But I am so glad to have been able to set boundaries and get him to take responsibility for the line where his acting out hurts me. If he were thinking rationally he would have figured that out long ago. I know he's making moves in the right direction now. His announcement about quitting his line of work in a few years was huge evidence of that. It was huge evidence of him having his priorities straight and wanting to keep making things better. He is contractually locked in and that's the only reason he's staying as long as he will. (I don't want anyone to think he's just saying, "Yeah...someday I'll quit," to appease me or something. He is bound to stay in his new position for a period of time so we have to wait it out.)

Once again, I've been long-winded. Sorry, guys.
 
Hey 2SH,

I'm so glad you came back and let us know what was going on.

Don't worry about being long-winded or even about trying to convince us that your decisions are the right ones; this is a place of support for male survivors and their family and friends, and the people here don't speak from an expert position, but from their own experiences and opinions.

Because our experiences are all different, you might get advice or insights which are very different from each other, or which you disagree with-- we're all entitled to those opinions, but at the end of the day, the only one who needs to be convinced that you're doing the right thing is yourself.

A few women on this forum have had their lives and relationships deeply affected by an unplanned pregnancy-- I can't even begin to guess all the things that went through my boyfriend or any other survivor's mind after finding out he was going to be a dad, but I know a lot of it was troubling to him. I'd advise you NOT to take the "a mistake would be a blessing" approach to birth control. I'm not saying you need to wait until everything in life is perfect to have kids (if we all did that, the human race would die out), I'm just saying whether you two decide to try for a pregnancy or try to prevent one, take your decision seriously.

Hope your wedding is a beautiful beginning to a beautiful life together.

SAR
 
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