helping teens to talk

[Kirk Wayne]

I stand by the old AA maxim:

To keep your recovery you have to give some of it away, regardless of age.

Kirk

"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"

 

[FLRich]

I AM VERY SUSPICIOUS OF ADULT MEN WHO FOCUS THEIR ATTENTIONS ON TEENAGE BOYS ,that is just sick man .turnning something good and healing into something dirty and sneaky ,is not what i thought this site was about.

Shadow, I couldn't have said it better myself. While I certainly respect Danny's take on the safety of the teens here, I find his statement EXTREMELY insulting. It's a stigma we have fought for years...if you've been sexually abused, you will become an abuser.

 

[roadrunner]

Danny,

I understand that you are speaking from the heart and I believe you. That said, I find your post incredibly offensive and inappropriate to this site.

You open by commenting as follows:

I am very suspicious of adult men who focus their attention on teenage boys. I realize that this is my problem.

But you say this as mere rhetoric to excuse what is to follow. I know from previous posts of yours that your issue is that as a boy you were cruelly manipulated and groomed by an adult who led you to think he cared about you, but in fact only intended to abuse you. As a result, the image of adult men caring about teenagers triggers you.

But are you unique in this respect? Of course not. My guess is that there are at least 2000 members here who were caught up in abuse in exactly the same way. But the vast majority of those, including me, I should say, are nevertheless able to see that teenagers coming here will have their own special issues and questions, and that some of these have to do with their age and the close proximity of their past abuse. They see that it might be useful to think about these issues, in the same way that it is a good idea to think about the special issues of, for example, incest victims.

You already know that your take on this theme will be harmful and inflammatory, and as you yourself say, your suspicions are your problem. So why this post?

The answer seems to be that for you the only opinion that matters is yours, regardless of how hurtful it is. Your right to vent your personal issue is not affected in the least by some basic facts:

• 1. Teen members are here on the site.
• 2. Teen members are welcomed here.
• 3. We are ALL here to talk to and support each other as a community.
• 4. Teen members can contribute a LOT to the site from their own unique perspective, just as all the rest of us can (victims of Scout leaders my case, clergy abuse, incest, and so on).

This is why you get caught up so often with accusations of arrogance. I dont claim that since I dont know you hardly at all. But the simple fact of the matter is that YOUR suspicion however understandable is YOUR problem. You should take it up with your T, and I suppose you have. Whatever the case may be, it just isnt on for you to validate your narrow personal agenda at the expense of devalidating so many of the rest of us.

You might consider, for example, the possibility that some member here was abused by a black adult, or a gay adult, or a teacher. Would that member have any right at all to tell the rest of us I am very suspicious of black men who focus their attention on teenage boys, or I am very suspicious of gay men who focus their attention on teenage boys, or I am very suspicious of teachers who focus their attention on teenage boys. Of course not. He would have the right to his opinion, of course, but not to beat the rest of us up with it.

In any case, I think if you look carefully at what you say you will see that you are being not only suspicious, but paranoid. You comment as follows:

For those who wish to focus their attention on teenaged survivors, develop special relationships with them or engage in private or outside contact with them, you are treading on very shaky ground.

Who is focusing on teenage boys? Who is pursuing a special relationship? Who is seeking private contact? I started this thread, and neither my first post nor any reply has the slightest thing to do with a focus on teenagers. I know you are not trying to single me out in any way, and thank you for that. But never mind lets do single me out just as a case in point. I have posted over 2500 times in less than a year, and I think it is clear that I talk to everyone: teenagers, sure but also adults in every forum and on all issues. I bet that less than 5% of my posts are addressed to teenagers or have anything to do with them specifically.

Are you telling me that I should not raise the question of how we can encourage teenagers here all of them valid members - just because you are suspicious? I can see thats YOUR problem, as you say. But what I would like to know is this: how does it get to be MY problem? Frankly, your post obliges me to reply that I am not intimidated in the slightest and I absolutely will not be moved by appeals to suspicions and narrow-minded thinking. Are you suspicious of ALL male teachers, clergymen, social workers, doctors, and so on? Thats a pretty heavy stone to be carrying bro!

I know what you will say: Scotty Todd is the Mod Buddy. And thats true. But I am not talking about secret or confidential contacts or whatever. I started this thread in an open public forum -- as a way of raising a particular issue that is absolutely relevant to this site. You simply do NOT have the right to trash it because you are very suspicious of adult men who focus their attention on teenage boys. Are you saying that the subject of the problems that teens have should not be even MENTIONED on Male Survivor? Because that triggers YOU? Im sorry if this sounds harsh, but frankly, I guess my answer would have to be this: Go deal with your problem.

I know this is a big emotional problem for you, Danny, but you should not try to gain some broader legitimacy for it by claiming that age doesnt matter. Im sorry, but this just isnt worth arguing about and I dont think any therapist in the world would agree with you. A logical corollary would be that abuse by my priest doesnt matter we are all survivors. It doesnt matter that I was raped by my own parent we are all survivors. When a scared and confused 15-year-old high school student walks through the Ts door I sure hope he is treated differently from me, a 56-year-old university professor married 25 years with two grown kids! You speak about wishing all of us healing and so on and so forth, and I dont doubt that at some level you mean well. But here on this thread all thats just rhetoric that you are using to drape a very narrow and spiteful personal agenda fueled, as you say, by suspicion going back to your childhood.

Its not that I dont care I do care, and I can imagine that this suspicion weighs heavily on you in all kinds of ways. I wish you all the best in dealing with it. But I think that when a member has views that he KNOWS will be harmful and disruptive, and which he KNOWS from the get-go are his personal agenda, the responsible course of action is to withhold these views. If someone sees an adult here conducting himself towards a boy in a way that seems inappropriate, he should of course report it immediately, and I think the mods would take that up as a matter of urgency. But that isnt what you are getting at. You want to see the teenagers here ignored because you have problems.

The bottom line is that MS is a community, Danny, and that means that sometimes individuals have to forego their own prerogatives for the benefit of the whole group. Isnt that why we have rules, guidelines, and may I say, principles of brotherhood and common courtesy? Why is it that these dont apply to you?

Larry

 

[dwf]

Dear fellow survivors,

My experience is this:

Sexual abuse screws us up in so many ways, that we best spend our time and energy focusing on our own recovery.

Sexual abuse screws us up in ways that make us especially UNQUALIFIED to 'help' teenagers in their recovery other than how we help any other survivor.

Sexual abuse screwed me up in

confusion over sexuality;

confusing friendship with sexual favors;

confusing security and safety with sexual relations;

confusing relations between me as a teenager and older men.....

the list could go on for a long time.

I have written about my experience being sexually abused in other posts. If you care to know more about my story, please ask.

We may support others, listen to others, encourage others and extend love and courtesy to others, teenagers included, of course.

However to suggest that because I was abused as a teenager that makes me qualified to befriend a teen survivor is patently illogical on the face of it.

It is because I, and others, were stunted emotionally and psychologically during our formative years by the sexual abuse, that we are UNIQUELY UNqualified to offer special, one-on-one help to a teen survivor.

The quantity of Private Messages, exchanges of outside email information, plans to meet in person, special secrets that are only shared by one member and a teen survivor, relationships developing along father/son lines - these are the things that I am referring to as being extremely troubling to me.

That is the very slippery slope that I see below this step of "helping teens to talk".

You cannot give away something you don't have.

I appreciate the concern you show for my well-being and sincerely appreciate the opportunity to voice my views here.

Your replies to my post have been carefully read. I will take them to heart and keep them in mind.

As for how my views are interpreted, I will repeat some words about reading once given in advice to me.

"Read the black part, Danny. Just the black part."

Thanks all for your encouragement.

Regards,

Danny

***DISCLAIMER***The views expressed by me here are mine alone and do not represent any 'official' BoD or Mod position. But you already knew that, didn't you?

 

[Kirk Wayne]

DWF

"You cannot give away something you don't have".

I take issue with you at this. I have my recovery and I maintain that day in day out and if I can give a small part of that recovery away to help another survivor regardless of whether they are a teenager or not so be it. Somebody once gave me their time to listen to me they were an older survivor, their collected wisdom of their recovery enabled me to take my first faltering steps on to my recovery. As I have said "To keep it you have to give (some of it) away" to hold on to it and not share it would be taking a backwards step (for me), selfishness.

Kirk

"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit".

 

[roadrunner]

Danny,

Im very sorry, but again you are importing your own personal agenda into the discussion. Its of course true that no one discusses anything except from the context of his own experiences, but one must always try to look beyond this and remain objective. You arent doing that.

In the post above, for example, you repeatedly say that having been abused makes us unqualified to offer any insight to teen survivors. Thats nonsense, Im afraid. The same line of reasoning would oblige us to say that having been abused makes us unqualified to offer any insight to ANYONE, in which case what are we all doing here? It would mean that no father has anything meaningful to say to his son, in fact. All you are doing is trying to dress up your own suspicions and bitterness as a reasoned argument.

Your argument that as survivors we should focus on our own recovery is more of the same. Of course we should focus on our own recovery. Who says we shouldnt? But the fact of the matter is that we talk to each other about so many things here, and you never object. Its only when someone says hey, what about the teenagers here, how can we help, that you cite the focus on your own recovery argument. You simply dont want to HEAR about teen members. Its disingenuous for you to clothe this in the argument of seeing to ones own recovery.

You also try to lend force to your case by citing arguments that are just not on the table. Its the old tactic of setting up a straw man so it can be knocked down. You say, for example:

However to suggest that because I was abused as a teenager that makes me qualified to befriend a teen survivor is patently illogical on the face of it.

No one is talking about befriending teen survivors, Danny. My post and the subsequent discussion was about helping them to see the need to talk to real flesh and blood people about what happened to them. But now that you mention it, absolutely, I hope that teenagers here DO feel befriended in the sense of being wanted, appreciated, understood, important, and so on. Is it not the case that we all extend that kind of support to each other here? Are you saying that if a survivor here is under 18 he doesnt deserve the same consideration as anyone else?

I know where you will go with this, Danny, and an example of it is already in your post above, where you disapprove of special, one-on-one help and speak in more detail as follows:

The quantity of Private Messages, exchanges of outside email information, plans to meet in person, special secrets that are only shared by one member and a teen survivor, relationships developing along father/son lines - these are the things that I am referring to as being extremely troubling to me.

All this is another straw man. Where in this thread, except in your posts to it, has anyone spoken about any of this? What special, one-on-one help? What special secrets? What plans to meet? Who? Where? What father/son relationships? What does this have to do with the subject of the thread? Nothing. We come right back to your suspicions, which are now and will (apparently) always be triggered when and if anyone dares to talk about issues involving teenagers. In all honesty, why dont you just say how you feel? You suspect anyone who takes an interest in teen members as being a pedophile.

Finally, I think you need to look at how you react to criticism. I dont have anything at all against you personally. But your views on this subject are in my opinion not just erroneous by miles and miles, but also based on false reasoning used to dress up personal angst and bitterness as genuine issues. I have stated clearly why I feel that way. I dont blame you at all for having issues like this, and I am a firm believer that in order to heal we must acknowledge and own our feelings so we can work on them.

But Danny that isnt what you do when someone differs with you. You feel personally rejected and persecuted and make sarcastic comments on how you have been received, such as the way you end your last post above:

Thanks all for your encouragement.

But no one is trying to discourage or disrespect you. The problem is that you dont want to hear any other point of view. You enter into a discussion knowing others will disagree with you, but then you are wounded by their disagreement as if its a big surprise and wont listen to or learn from anything they say. You dismiss them as angry, as deluded, as pissed off, or lets face it as lurking predators. The possibility that Danny is wrong on this point just isnt in the cards.

For what its worth, Im not angry with you. I wish I knew you better, that way perhaps we could come to understand and appreciate each other more fully. I also dont take personal offense at your notion that anyone who cares about teenagers is automatically suspect of being a pedophile, although I can understand how many guys would and DO take offense. I just realize now and I didnt yet get this the last time you and I exchanged words on this theme that you remain in a very dark place where your feelings about your own experiences as an abused boy are concerned.

I regret that this is the case, I really do, and I wish you success in dealing with this problem. If we ever had a chance to meet I would welcome that. But at the same time I insist that no one should feel shamed by your remarks, or consider that their attitude towards young survivors or survivors of any age should be defined by someone elses personal problems.

Much love,
Larry

 

[melliferal]

The part of Danny's post which stuck out most to me is this:

...we were all equally unable to deal with the effects of sexual abuse on our own and treat each and everyone here with equal kindness and consideration, without regard for their age.

This is the part of his post most relevant to the thread's topic, and I think this is a wise way to move forward, as I said. The question was how teen (as opposed, I presume, to adult) survivors should be dealt with, spoken to, or what have you. I believe the best thing to do is talk to them the same way I would talk to anyone else. If this were a more professional setting, or a more personal one, perhaps there would be cause for treating others differently. But I think the best way to making a younger person feel welcome or safe in this particular place is to treat him like one of the group, as it were.

As for the rest of the post, I took it for venting. I can certainly allow someone such suspicions as an artifact of abuse. I don't harbor the same suspicions necessarily, and I didn't see his opinion as particularly forceful, but rather simply explained in detail. And it is only his opinion, true, but all of our posts are only our opinions.

 

[roadrunner]

melliferal,

I agree with you: talk to them as we talk to each other. Otherwise I think they would feel they are being patronized.

Could I come back a moment to the question I originally asked?

How can we help a frightened teenager feel safe enough to begin his task of healing and start talking about it to people in his flesh-and-blood world?

Or to rephrase: Teens come here and talk to us, which is fine so far as it goes. But authorities who really know about these matters seem to feel that what is really important is for a victim of abuse to tell someone in, well, call it the "flesh and blood world". In the case of a teenager that would mean parents or guardians, or if there are reasons why that would not be appropriate, then some other trusted adult. Is there any way we can encourage them - not pressure or harangue them - to see the wisdom of doing this, bearing in mind how (understandably) frightened, confused and ashamed they feel? While they are on the site how can we help them talk about this and gradually feel more safe about it - without making them feel cornered?

I would stress that I meant how can we do this here on Male Survivor, and not, for example, via personal meetings or telephone calls. I think that goes without saying.

It seemed obvious to me that this is very important, since adults here know what the alternative can be - years and decades of difficulty.

I didn't have in mind rescue, which clearly we cannot provide, but rather ways of making this important point to teens who come here terribly afraid of the consequences of telling someone face-to-face what happened.

I do think this is an important and even vital topic to think about, in the first instance because teens are welcome here and do come here. A further issue is that while there are some very useful books for adult survivors and and likewise for younger boys, there is not really anything "out there" for the group that shows up here - the 13-17 year olds. Some of us will remember that this issue came up last year and several teens said they felt "left out" or ignored and considered that the available literature did not really speak to them or relate to their problems.

Anyway, that is what I had in mind.

Much love,
Larry

 

[Hauser]

Hi guys. Danny? What's the big deal? Everything is monitored here by very dedicated and competent people who manage this site.

By suggesting that it's too risky to let a teen confide with and trust an adult (to the exclusion of some others) here because of the risk of being somehow victimized is anolagous to insisting that all of us drive only 5mph in our cars becuase some of us might get hurt. It's not realistic.

The benefits of being here for teens far outwieghs the potential harm that might be caused, which is negligible. If teens were at risk of being victimized here, this site wouldn't last long.

I have befriended a teen here that happens to feel more comfortable confiding with me than some of the others, and that's a cool thing if you ask me. He nary uttered a peep when he first came on board, and now he's talking and sharing his life and problems, and helping others as well. He's growing and healing. This would not have been possible if I and the others were more concerned about others suspicions of ulterior motives than of being here for him and developing a relationship with him.

Isn't developing relationships part of, if not central to, being in a support group?

Statistically, this place is as safe as a police station. So lighten up.

 

[FormerTexan]

Danny,

It is because I, and others, were stunted emotionally and psychologically during our formative years by the sexual abuse, that we are UNIQUELY UNqualified to offer special, one-on-one help to a teen survivor.

I'm not sure what you mean by "special, one-on-one help," but it seems to me that someone who is looking for any guidance on dealing with abuse is gonna want to talk to people who have walked in their shoes, not the "nice" person who means well but hasn't been there. I know that I want people to talk to who can relate to my experiences at some level or another, not people who are gonna look at me, shrug, and say 'sorry life sucks.'

Also, there have been times when a minor has come into the chat in the past seeking help right away. If I were to apply what you stated, what comes to my mind is a reaction of cold indifference to the minor needing adult attention from someone who can relate to the matter at hand. "Sorry kid, I know it's a tough time, but I'm not supposed to chat with you for fear this could be perceived as special one-on-one help. Be well." Now, I'm not saying I'm going to relate to everything that comes across the chat screen, but I am hard-pressed to think that shunning the minor is the answer. Perhaps you can offer some definition to this?

I am very suspicious of adult men who focus their attention on teenage boys.

Again, the only answer to this statement is to offer cold indifference to the minor seeking guidance or comfort, which in reality is quite hurtful. I too take exception to this statement.
As a teen, I absolutely WAS focused on by an older man and later abused by him. But I am nothing like him. My personal experience with him does not lead me to think that all men who want to help are out to prey on minors.

 

[Josh1]

I would like to share a little about my personal work to discuss a point on this topic.

I am currently volunteering for an organization in Peru that creates aldeas (commnities of homes run by mamas who take care of the kids as if her own) for kids who come from extreme poverty, were abandoned, orphaned, worked in the streets, etc.

I work with kids from the ages of 8-16. About three weeks ago, the director of the Aldea recommended I give the kids the opportunity to tell me about their pasts. They talked about how their parents died of Cancer and AIDS, how their parents were paralyzed, couldn't find work, how kids were shuffled through the state orphanage system, etc. Although I know from the director of the aldea that a large percentage of the kids were sexually abused, not one of them mentioned their abuse, despite talking about some of the worst tragedies that can befall a person.

Both of my parents are alive, three of my grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, etc., the loss I have suffered did not come from death, it came at the hands of a ruthless man out to steal my innocence. These kids told me about their tragedy, and so I shared mine. I disclosed.

The kids' reaction was to laugh. I asked them why they were laughing, but they couldn't say. I didn't take it personally because I knew that it was hitting home for them.

Several days ago I brought this up to the director, and he told me that several of the mamas had expressed fear and anxiety over my disclosure. The director responded to the mamas, "But your kids experienced this also." He was proud of me for sharing.

What is my point? I was a victim of sexual abuse. And I work with kids. I am 100% unequivocally positive that I would never in ten million years under any circumstance do anything to harm one of these kids. I care about these kids as if they are my own. I want them to lead great lives, and I am working hard to help them get something better for themselves.

Danny, I think your concerns are very similar to the concerns of the mamas. He was a victim of childhood sexual abuse, so does that mean he is dangerous?

I know in the deepest regions of my heart that my intentions are pure. Furthermore, I am working on creating a sexual abuse awareness program at the aldea. I am in the midddle of doing research on Latin American and other international programs (if anyone has any resources I would be greatly appreciative.)

I am not angry or offended by anyone who makes a connection between victims of sexual abuse and danger. But I think for so many reasons it is just not correct (as backed up by the myths about sexual abuse document on the MS home page).

To answer the original question of this post, the way to help others is to tell people our stories. It is our duty to teach the world that sexual abuse is common, men are victims in large numbers, and that healing is real and happens. By telling our stories and finding our voices, we give others the strength to do the same. How wonderful a world would it be if all people could feel confident to be open and honest about the suffering in their life?

Joshua

 

[melliferal]

Larry -

OK, I think I understand a bit better. I'm not so sure that I could contribute as well, since I have yet to disclose "in real life" myself (though, granted, my reasons may be dissimilar from the reasons a young person may not disclose).

All I suppose I can offer is what I remember wishing for when I was young, but never got - an adult who had been abused. What a horrible thing to wish for, right? For someone to have been abused. But I wanted someone trustworthy, someone I could recognize as older and wiser, who had been down the same road, that I could talk to. I wanted to be able to hear this person admit that he had been abused, by himself. Someone standing on his own two feet and saying "yes, this happened to me, and I want everyone to know about it, and I don't want it to happen to anyone else". I think I almost dreamed of something like this happening - of seeing someone say such a thing. I believe I could've fed off such a person's strength - that it would've given me the courage or inspiration to also stand up. "It happened to me, too". I didn't want to be alone.

Does this place offer that? Maybe, maybe not. Even then, I was at least dimly aware that what happened to me had most likely happened to lots of other people. This place may give young people that awareness, and that's important, but maybe it isn't enough, because despite that awareness, I still felt alone. I would think, "sure, it happens to a lot of people, but I'm the only one around here that it happened to". I think most of us think that way deep inside at first - it's why so many of us, even later in life, are so surprised when we find out that it also happened to the kid two doors down, for instance. I think (I could be wrong) I remember RICK57 expressing this surprise when he found out that his case was being put together with several other cases - some of whom he knew as a kid.

So if you were to ask me what I think younger survivors need, I think that they not only need to be told that they aren't alone, they need to be shown.

 

[roadrunner]

Joshua and Melliferal,

You both hit on an important point I think. The teens who come here usually think that they are totally alone, echoing your sentiment Joshua. I remember that and recall feeling crushed under that stone. They not only feel alone; they can't imagine that anything like what happened to them could have happened to anyone else. I suppose that's what makes a kid feel so confused and guilty.

I was especially struck by this comment of yours Joshua:

It is our duty to teach the world that sexual abuse is common, men are victims in large numbers, and that healing is real and happens. By telling our stories and finding our voices, we give others the strength to do the same.

Relating to others who especially need our support also helps us in our own effor to heal. I think we need to note the point raised by Howard - our first task is to heal OURSELVES. There will always be time later to reach out. But if we are in a sufficiently safe place ourselves then there is all the benefit in the world to helping someone else, of whatever age, to find his voice.

That brings me to your post Melliferal. You end with an important point:

I think that they not only need to be told that they aren't alone, they need to be shown.

I think that's crucial. Assuming I understand you correctly, the idea would be that teens gain some unique advantage from talking to adults who has survived what they are now enduring, or what they have just recently endured. It's such a simple idea it just has to be true! I remember how it felt coming here the first time and thinking, Oh my God, I'm not alone. I can talk to these guys and they will believe m, understand me, and not judge me - because they have gone through the same thing.

It must be an even more powerful experience for a teenager. He can see that this isn't the end. His life isn't ruined and he won't feel like this forever. It's DIFFERENT if another survivor - an adult lots older than him who went through the same thing - tells his it wasn't your fault.

Back to my original question:

How can we help a frightened teenager feel safe enough to begin his task of healing and start talking about it to people in his flesh-and-blood world?

I want to stress again that I don't mean how can we encourage teen survivors to talk to us - they are already doing that!!! Rather, how can we encourage them to take that big risk and tell safe adults who can actually give them real and effective HELP where they live?

I think both of your suggestions contribute a lot. By telling our own stories, rejecting the blame and shame, and talking about our issues, we SHOW them that they aren't alone and that things don't HAVE to stay in such a terrible mess. Hopefully that will help them to regain the confidence and self-esteem it takes to step up in front of an adult, take that deep breath, and just say it.

The difficult part, of course, is that this message is very scary to a teenager. They have to know that this is something they should aim for, but at the same time they have to be assured that they won't be pressured or cornered - the time line is theirs, and only they will know when that time has come.

Much love,
Larry

 

[Don-NY]

How can we help a frightened teenager feel safe enough to begin his task of healing and start talking about it to people in his flesh-and-blood world?

The only way is to talk to them first, in the flesh. And that means a couple of things.

First it means stop talking about it and do it. Like Lloydy made the decision to become a counselor for Survivors and did it.

And Kirk made the decision to go head to head with that lot and did it.

Of course, as Danny and Howard both say, Physician, heal thyself.

So you've got to be pretty well recovered and strong and a "safe" person youself, before you can talk to anyone in the flesh-and-blood world.

If you're talking about younger people especially, you have to look them in the eye and tell them you know, and the only way out is to talk about it and get help. You tell them to their face not to waste their lives and wait decades to move on.

Right? It's simple isn't it?

Larry, you must teach scores or hundreds of teenagers every year. What sort of impact would it have if you devoted a few minutes at the first class of every semester talking about this issue, giving some referral information, and offering to help anyone who has any "questions"?

Do you have a web page that student's use? You could put a link to MaleSurvivor on your home page. Wouldn't that be something?

I guess that's something I would do, if I were a college professor or teacher, and I were where I am now in Recovery. I'd probably also make sure that my school had information available to Survivors. Maybe even see if the information could be put into the student hadbooks, or require a freshmen orientation on this and related topics.

That's what I think we can do in the flesh-and-blood world. Either talk to them eye to eye, or make sure they GET and SEE the information they need.

The rest is up to them, isn't it?

 

[dwf]

LONG ***May Trigger***

Dear friends and fellow survivors,

During this discussion, I have spoken of my feelings based on my experience and shared what seems important to me regarding the way all survivors, including teenagers are treated here at MS.

Some, provoked to anger by what they heard me saying, reacted to my post with great vehemence and at great length.

Exchanging points of view and offering ones perspective to a conversation is a lot of what this forum is about. No one is expected to go lock-step with the popular way of seeing things.

This is a very valuable asset we have as survivors and I especially want to make sure it is available to us all.

So I have no problems with the opinions expressed which are in strong disagreement with what I said and how I said it.

Especially I do not wish to argue with anyone about this subject or any other for that matter.

Still, I do feel that as the discussion has progressed, the things that I actually wrote in my post have been changed by others and by their emotions engendered by the exchange.

I would like to take this opportunity to show the difference between what I said and what others heard me say.

For example, the second sentence in my original post was written specifically, with capital letters, stating my true and honest feelings.

I wrote:

"I have absolutely NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER about the good intentions of those who participate in this discussion.."

Here is what one reader, Roadrunner, heard and repeated back as if they were my words:

" In all honesty, why dont you just say how you feel? You suspect anyone who takes an interest in teen members as being a pedophile."

Another reader, FLRich wrote in reply:

"I find his statement EXTREMELY insulting."

OK, now, I said that "I have absolutely NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER about the good intentions of those who participate in this discussion,"

In other words, I said that I feel that without a doubt those participating in this discsussion have only good intentions.

How is that an insult? Sounds like a vote of confidence to me.

Have any of you stopped to consider that you may not be the only people who come across this thread titled 'how to talk to teens'?

That perhspa my strong language and warnings might be addressed to others who may not be as trustworthy as you all?

Can you maybe imagine how a predator trolling this web site might react upon seeing a thread in the public forum titled 'how to talk to teens'? Like , "Wow, cool, this is a place I can come and find some teens to 'talk' to.".

Here's an example of that: I have a very good friend named Tina who lives in Oregon. While setting up her email address, she very innocently chose '[email protected]'.

Within the first day, she received dozens of lewd and lascivious emails from complete strangers drawn my the use of the word 'teen' in her address. Teen is the nickname her husband uses as shorthand for Tina....maybe you get the idea. But the predators were drawn to it like flies to a carcass.

I have asked the Administration to forbid the use of the words 'kid', 'teen', 'young' and others in the screen names that members may choose for the same reason. They have resisted my suggestion and I respect that.

Another example of disparity between written and heard:

When I write:

"For those who wish to focus their attention on teenaged survivors, develop special relationships with them or engage in private or outside contact with them, you are treading on very shaky ground."

OK guys, if you're not doing or planning to do any of those things, then this does not apply to you.

Besides I have already said that I do not doubt your good intentions.

But it does apply to anyone who comes along and thinks that they can do that here on this site and get away with it.

With the subject of 'how to talk to teens', it seemed pertinent to also address the topic of 'how NOT to talk to teens', as that has been a serious problem in the past on the MS website.

Roadrunner wrote in his original post:

"Forget the stock answers out of the books. How can we help a frightened teenager feel safe enough to begin his task of healing and start talking about it to people in his flesh-and-blood world?"

These two sentences are part of why I felt it necessary to address the difficulties faced when dealing with teenagers in the cyber environment this Discussion Board operates in.

The idea of 'forget(ting) the stock answers...' does not sound at all supportive of the official Discussion Board policy.

It sounds to me like "Hey let's think up new ways (besides the ones the Admin has selected) to deal with these teens.

"How can we help a frightened teenager feel safe enough to begin his task of healing and start talking about it to people in his flesh-and-blood world?"

The notion of talking about it to people in his flesh-and-blood world is a good one, but this is not the flesh-and-blood world here, this is the cyber world. And our relationships with teenagers must stay in this cyber world. It is strictly forbidden to meet in person with teenagers from this site.

This sentence triggered me as a suggestion that meeting face to face "flesh and blood" (god, I hate that phrase!) might somehow be a good idea - which it definitely is not, at least for members of this site.

I said specifically that it was not about you all in my opening, yet you insist on feeling insulted! What can I do about that?

That is exactly the opposite of what I honestly feel and exactly the opposite of what I said. What can be done when one's very specific words are ignored and others imputed in their stead?

Josh, you did share your experience, and I appreciate your contribution. You wrote:

"I would like to share a little about my personal work to discuss a point on this topic.

I am currently volunteering for an organization in Peru that creates aldeas..."

I notice that you are doing your work within the context of an organization and that you talk about discussing this with your supervisor.

Well MaleSurvivor is also an organization and we all agree to work within it's context also. And our 'supervisors' here have decided that contact between teenagers and adults should be more carefully scrutinized and limited than other types of relationships.

Just as you respect the guidelines of your organization and the guidance of your supervisor, we are all asked to do the same here at MaleSurvivor.

You don't say for sure, but I would guess that you work in person with the young people entrusted to you.

That is obviously not the case here. We are not face to face.

There has been much written and said about the great difficulties that come from interacting within cyber communities.

The anonymity, while a blessing in some ways, can also result in a complete lack of accountability. People can very easily pretend to be who they are not.

Communication is more difficult without facial expressions, hand gestures and body language.

For this reason and others, MaleSurvivor encourages teenagers (in fact, requires them) to share their concerns, problems, worries etc. with a person trained specifically in dealing with juvenile survivors. His name is ScottyTodd.

Here is what ScottyTodd had to say in reply to what I wrote:

"Danny - I appreciate your words, caution and warnings!"

Do you seen the difference between how ScottyTodd responded and the other reactions expressed here?

ScottyTodd, the head of the ModBuddy program designed to help and safeguard teenagers on this site, goes on to say:

"This is a site dedicated to recovery from childhood sexual abuse which should be THE MAIN FOCUS...just as I totally agree that for me, my recovery comes first! Before I can help others stuck in "the quicksand", I need to be on more solid ground so we both don't flounder or sink!! We need to be strongly aware of where we are and what we are doing in a very personal, totally honest way!"

So, that is what our 'supervisor' has to say about what I wrote and how I expressed it.

Another member read what I wrote and reacted with the following statements:

"If I were to apply what you stated, what comes to my mind is a reaction of cold indifference to the minor needing adult attention from someone who can relate to the
matter at hand."

Cold indifference? That comes to mind after reading my statements such as:

"We may support others, listen to others, encourage others and extend love and courtesy to others, teenagers included, of course."

"support.." "listen" "encourage" "love and courtesy" to "others, teenagers included" these are my words, yet "cold indifference" is what is heard?

And again the same member writes:

"Again, the only answer to this statement is to offer cold indifference to the minor seeking guidance or comfort, which in reality is quite hurtful."

This comes after my statements:

" I welcome all survivors teenaged or other aged to MaleSurvivor and hope for them the priceless gift of recovery."

"The only answer..." it seems that is not the answer I suggest at all when I write:

"treat each and everyone here with equal kindness and consideration, without regard for their age."

There's the answer I suggested, not the 'only answer of cold indifference' heard by the member in question.

Later in the dialogue, roadrunner finally modifies his statements:

"I would stress that I meant how can we do this here on Male Survivor, and not, for example, via personal meetings or telephone calls. I think that goes without saying."

I am glad to hear that emphasis added. That is exactly the message I was trying to get across - not particularly to those participating in the discussion, but once again to anyone and everyone who might come across this thread in the future.

I want to make sure and not just as an afterthought that all who come here know that we value all our members and that certain members, such as our teenagers, are especially cared for and guarded with great attention.

That's the message I want to get out there. Don't mess with MaleSurvivor teens! We are ready for you if you do.

Roadrunner frames 'the problem' in these terms:

" Some of us will remember that this issue came up last year and several teens said they felt "left out" or ignored and considered that the available literature did not really speak to them or relate to their problems."

"This issue..." did come up last year. It was discussed in detail by the Mod/Admin staff and also by the Board of Directors. Many steps were taken to remedy the lack of literature etc.

More importantly the Board created the Mod Buddy program which is now nearing it's first six months of existence.

It does not matter to me much what others may do in the private lives, there certainly is very little I can do to influence their choices.

But when it comes to matters concerning the MaleSurvivor organization, the Discussion Board and the Chat Room, it does matter to me what others do.

What I choose to do is encourage us all to follow the guidance given after due consideration by the Board of Directors and the Admin.

That guidance regarding teenagers is that their welfare is best protected by a trained individual in the person of the Mod buddy.

Does that mean we can't talk to minors? Of course not! Did I ever say we shouldn't talk to minors?
No, of course not!

What I said was:

"We can welcome teenage survivors as we welcome all who seek to recover from the effects of sexual abuse."

I would add, "We can and should...".

Finally, I wrote:

"The problems that have developed on the MS Discussion Board have not come as a result of too little attention being given to teenage survivors.

Instead it has come from members inappropriately usurping the role of the designated moderators and Mod buddies in dealing with teenagers."

I stand by this statement one hundred per cent.

I have never heard one single complaint about teenagers not receiving enough attention on the MS discussion board.

I have heard and seen a lot of confusion, hurt feelings, conflict and pain caused by adult members acting with too much attention to younger survivors.

The older survivors began to argue and fight amongst themselves about who was best qualified to 'help' the teens; the teens themselves sometimes were drawn into these 'popularity' contests; on some occasion teenagers reported untoward advances made to them.

It was in this context that the Board and Admin decided to try out the Mod Buddy Program.

It was my choice to decide to try and support this program to the fullest. That means that if a teen survivor comes to me with a problem such as ongoing abuse, secrets to be kept, gossip about others etc. then I am going to ask the Mod Buddy to talk about that with the teen survivor.

I am not going to take on the role of advisor, counselor, mentor, father-figure to the teenagers.

Once again, I reiterate, this is meant to apply to MaleSurvivor only. What you wish to try to do outside of here is your business and none of mine.

My experience here has been that there is an incredibly complex set of dynamics, full of very strong triggers involving both the adults and the teenaged survivors.

These dynamics are too much for us as survivors to handle. Sure we can be friendly, sure we can offer encouragement and support just as we would to others. But just as we would for others, we should recommend that the teens seek APPROPRIATE help, which on this site is the Mod Buddy, ScottyTodd, aka Howard.

One final note: I wrote:

""You cannot give away something you don't have".

meaning that unless I have the abilities and skills needed to successfully navigate life, I cannot give them to another person, teenaged or other aged.

Another member wrote that he disagreed with me.

OK, dude! If you don't have something, how the hell are you going to give it away to someone else? You don't have it to give! Is that not logical? Of course if you do have it, well then, no problem.

Some have suggested that I have an agenda of my own in this discussion of teenagers and survivors.
And yes, I do have an agenda.

My agenda is make sure that everyone who comes here with the idea of exploiting, using, abusing, toying with, hurting, seducing, dominating or playing guru to any teenage survivor or anyone else....that person knows that there are people like me here that will do whatever they can to prevent it.

That's my message. And as I said in the very beginning:

"While I have absolutely NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER about the good intentions of those who participate in this discussion, I am compelled speak my truth from my heart."

If you have no bad intentions, my message is not meant for you. If you decide to read it as if it was meant for you, even though I explicitly said it wasn't, then read it again. And as I said before"

"Read the black part." Not between the lines, not the white part (there's nothing there but your own imaginings and fears).

And before we begin to divide ourselves up into groups of leaders and followers, adults and teenagers, good guys and bad guys, let's remember:

"Let's remember that we were all equally unable to deal with the effects of sexual abuse on our own..."

Together we can recover.

There is so much more I could offer to refute the things that are represented as my view, but I am tired and I am sure you are too.

Thanks for reading this far. I'm bowing out of the discussion now.

Thank you all for your feedback. It is much appreciated.

Regards,

Danny

***DISCLAIMER***The views expressed by me here are mine alone and do not represent any 'official' BoD or Mod position. But you already knew that, didn't you?

 

[Kirk Wayne]

Danny

By your comment you were implying that there was not anything to give away because (we) didnt have it to give away.

Through past experiences within other group settings I had to disagree with you. I feel I have something to give away, that, that I have gained from MS and other aspects of my recovery I think the old saying goes:

"to keep it you have to give it away".

"I am not going to take on the role of advisor, counselor, mentor, father-figure to the teenagers".

Neither am I. All I do is share my experiencies, strength and hope. If someone decides to take that on board all well and good, if they prefer not to thats fine as well.

And please do not refer to me as "Dude" my name is Kirk.

Regards

Kirk

"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"

 

[shadowkid]

flesh and blood world means the people around the kid like parents or authorities,it seems you have also taken an innocent statement and twisted it to suit your needs

 

[FLRich]

I am very suspicious of adult men who focus their attention on teenage boys.

Danny,

This is the statement that I find insulting. To begin with, this thread was not going anywhere near where it has ended up, until you interjected your opinions. Your opinions are very valuable here. I trust you as a moderator completely. But the thread was about how to help teens talk about their sexual abuse. We all know how we trusted no one when we were teens. Most of us clammed up and just tried to do the best we could, some with the help of alcohol or drugs. It would have been better if there were someone to talk to, who had actually experienced SA, to talk to us than having Jack Daniels or the Christian Brothers to talk to.

I found the statement insulting, and still do, regardless of what you wrote beforehand. It's like telling someone that you have all the confidence in the world in them and then turning around and kicking them in the nads.

I will not use names, but when I first came to MS, it was a teen who first talked to me. Over the past two years, he has confided in me many times and we have genuinely helped each other through some pretty tough times. He is no longer a teen, but I had respect for him and he for me. He knew then that he could call me anytime he needed an adult to talk to. We have sent emails back and forth for years now. You can go through my PC hard drive and see that never was anything written that was off base.

Do I focus my attention on teenage boys? I raised two teenage boys! I certainly focused my attention, at times, on this teen's problems. Many times we dont have to "give advice". They just need someone to talk to, and someone to listen to them.

I TOTALLY understand your concerns, Danny. There ARE predators out there. Hell, we know that better than anyone. The teen I am referring to, had his trust shattered by a guy that was trying to manipulate him and many others here, including my old self. But that could happen anywhere, and with any aged person. It did happen. Still, I consider this to be one of the safest sites on the web, and the guys here the safest and most helpful group of guys on the web.

I know that I am not "healed". But I would much rather talk to a person who had been through this abuse than someone who was taught about it in a college course and was simply regurgitating it all back as therapy.

I am sorry if you were misunderstood. I am also sorry that you chose to twist this thread into something that it was not meant to be about. It was about how to get teens to talk to someone about their abuse. Not about grown men preying on teenage boys. God knows there is plenty to written about that on a new thread.

I totally agree with you that teens here need to be safe. I understand cyber perverts, but don't be suspicious of all adult men trying to help a teen.

 

[Don-NY]

Originally posted by shadowkid:
flesh and blood world means the people around the kid like parents or authorities,it seems you have also taken an innocent statement and twisted it to suit your needs

Shadow,

I am guessing that this is addressed to me since I used the words "flesh-and-blood" repeatedly in my reply.

I think you misunderstood me. This is probably my own fault, but even though my comments are public, I was really talking to Larry, and I thought he would understand exactly what I mean.

In case he doesn't, and for your benefit, I will add what I left out of my first reply in just a moment.

But first, I assure you, I didn't twist anything, and I'm not here and writing for my own needs or some hidden purpose.

I know what flesh-and-blood refers to, and my main point is directed to Larry's original question: "What more or what else can we do HERE, to help teens take action in the Real World?

My point is that there is nothing more and nothing different we can do in this place to help them. We have very good, working procedures and guidlines for dealing with younger members.

If we really want to influence young survivors to act in their flesh-and-blood world, then we have to act in that same flesh-and-blood world.

That's all I meant. I think I was honest and direct in my comments, but perhaps I should have started with a clearer introduction of my position and ideas.

So let me add something which maybe should be at the beginning of my other reply.

*******************************************

Larry,

I certainly understand your concern for young survivors. In your work, you must meet dozens or hundreds of 17, 18, & 19 year olds every year. It must be very sad and depressing to think that 1 in 6 of them has had experiences similar to ours.

But I don't think there is anything else we can or should be doing here on this site beyond what we are doing: treat everyone with respect and refer the young members to the Mod-Buddy, who is not only a Survivor, but a professional therapist who specializes in treating the young.

Actually, there are two things I can think of that we can do. The first would be to stop referring to younger members of a certain age as "teens". This sets them apart, as if they are some "others", and I don't think that's helpful.

Aside from that, this label, "teens" is pretty useless when you stop to consider the differences between a 13 year old and one who is 16 or 19.

The other thing we can do is to make sure that we never minimize the ideas or feelings of younger members. I refer specifically to telling a young person, "Oh, you think or feel that way now, but you will understand and think differently when you are older."

That type of statement is condescending and plain bullshit. They MAY think differently when they are older, but they MAY become even more committed and convinced of their feelings and thoughts.

I'm not accusing you or anyone else of saying this, but it has happened here and it has made the younger member feel angry and alienated.

Those are my only two suggestions for what we can do here. I think that anything else we might do can only be done in that flesh-and-blood-world.

*******************************************

That's all Shadow. No hidden needs, purposes, or agendas. And I really don't think I twisted anything. I changed the focus a little bit, and I expressed my belief that if we really want to do more to help young people, we have to do in Real Life, not here. Then I gave Larry some suggestions of how he could make a difference when he feels ready.

Donald

 

[shadowkid]

don ,actully,i wasnt responding to your post ,but hey guys this thread has somehow gotten to the heart of how we all feel ,to me it is no different than any other conversation ,people with different opinions voicing them ,each one has as much validty as any other ,its not a personal attack on anyone ,please i hope this subject wont cuase any hurt feelings because we are only doing what we need to, discuss all the options ,look at things from different angles,its a good thing i think . if i have upset anyone with my responses then i do apologize because the question as asked is the important thing here ,.so to all who responded i respect your opinion and hope we can continue to talk about hard subjects like this. adam