Having experienced "pleasure" during abuse/effects

[EdfromNYC]

I posted in the general male forum about having had my body react with "pleasure" during the abuse. I haven't yet gotten any hits which is okay - doesn't feel great but I want instant results and that's not how it works.

I read an article that describes the conflicts created by experiencing "pleasure" while experiencing abuse. Here it is: https://www.net-burst.net/hope/abuse_pleasure.htm

I was doing a search because I didn't want to admit that "pleasure" was a huge part for me but I'm committed to changing and I have to face uncomfortable truths. But starting to put this out there and finding an article that describes me to a "T" shows me that I am not the only one and it is okay to admit truths that don't seem admissible.

I lived in shame and guilt and this idea that my abuser knew inside me better than I did so therefore I was to blame for being a part of it and furthermore for experiencing "pleasure". In truth, he was a predator who saw that I was lost and lonely and seeking connection and he sexualized it and that's what he saw, not my sexuality. I've spent my life trying to hide what I thought he could see. I've spent my life trying to hide in plain sight so that I was inscrutable and impenetrable so no one could see what was "true" about me and what I had participated in. I held myself to the standard of an equal participant which is what abusers leave victims feeling.

I've doubted my sexuality. I've avoided a lot of male friendships and mentorships. I've been afraid of a full fledged sexual relationship. I've avoided jobs that increased my visibility. I've lived a very very small underperforming and underearning life. I've avoided responsibility. I've avoided actually achieving things because I was still afraid that people knew who I was deep inside and what I had done and that at any minute anyone could expose me and everyone would laugh or be disgusted by me and my behavior (especially after the abuse when I started behaving in compulsive ways that didn't match the guy that I was trying to present myself as). I can't live this shame and guilt based life that is empty of sex, great male friendships, great family relations and fulfilling jobs, entertainment, relaxation, trips, etc. It's been so empty for me and I no longer want it to be so I have to go into the heart of this stuff, admit it, accept it, grieve it, move on.

 

[Chris4TheMill]

Hi Ed,

Want to respond to one of your posts but am rushing around this morning and have my T session in 1 minute. Will swing back around when I can.

Regards,

Chris

 

[EdfromNYC]

Thanks for that little note. Appreciate it. I'm going about my day too and am comfortable putting this stuff on this site. I'm getting somewhere...

 

[Esterio]

Hi Ed
Pleasure is a natural reaction to sex at least that is what I try to tell myself. I was gang raped at 17 and got aroused I do not remember an orgasm and that made everything worse as now the rapists thought I was enjoying it. This still bothers me today and is a big reason why I do not have sex any more for a long time. My thoughts go to that event and I have not been able to get it out of my head.

Thanks for the link it defiantly hit the mark for me.

Esterio

 

[EdfromNYC]

I'm glad the link helped and replies that identify help me a lot. I'm sorry that happened to you and that it has affected your sex life. Same here. I'm grieving that loss and working at moving on and allowing sex back into my life in a way that is not tied to the abuse or body memory of it.

 

[i-m-Bri]

***TRIGGERS***

Hi Ed,

I’ve been doing an intense moment by moment outline of being raped. There is so much I haven’t thought of since that night. I “forgot” he choked me. I also forgot how I felt right before he penetrated me. I was innocent and didn’t know why he wanted me face down on the ground. But when he laid on top of me it felt so good. It was shattered when he raped me. But for that breif moment it was beautiful.
Crazy, but I think if he would have been nice and talked me through it, I very well may have enjoyed it.
I have a hard time letting people touch me, let alone crawl on my back.
I wonder , can I return to that innocence? Can I allow that to unfold differently now?
I ask because I don’t allow intamacy and I am so hungry

 

[Chris4TheMill]

Hi Ed,

In your similar post in the other forum, you were concerned about the non-linear nature of this battle, and your desire for intimacy in relationships. I certainly agree that the internal battles follow a very non-linear pattern, and sometimes feel like 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. I assure you, this is normal. Also, the fact that you recognize your blockages around intimacy is a good thing, and shows that you are more self-aware than most. I have no doubt that you will get there, you have the tenacity. Try to be patient not only with yourself, but with the process. I know it feels to some of us that we didn't live up to our hopes, and that may be true in some ways. But we are doing the best we can, and none of our experiences will be wasted if we accept what is and work with it rather than fight against it.

As far as the arousal issue - The facts about arousal and orgasm during sexual assault or abuse have been written about in more than a few articles and studies. I found a really good article recently but have to hunt for it. This is a good one too:

The Science of Arousal During Rape

Thing is, if we know the facts about sexual response of the body. it can go a long way to helping us let go of any shame. Fact is, the body is designed to experience sexual pleasure when it is touched or stimulated in certain ways. That's just a scientific and biological fact. No amount of wishing it away is going to change it. During any kind of sexual contact, the brain is also flooded with neurotransmitters so that the brain is now awash in a stew of chemicals that make us feel everything from heightened arousal to stress and fear, depending on the circumstance. These can trigger sexual pleasure and/or orgasm, even if the encounter is violent. (If it is violent, the orgasm / ejaculation can be triggered because on some level we are seeking a pleasurably release as comfort, from the pain and distress and fear).

The sooner we can accept that our bodies will sometimes respond in ways that we don't necessarily want or choose, the better off we will be.

I had my own abuse / orgasm situation and am working through it but I've already gotten past the worst of it. Guilt and shame are no longer a part of it, I dropped those a long time ago. Now it is mostly body memories and learning to relax the brain so that the fearful and amped up portions do not take over.

As you said in your last sentence, the only way through and past this is to face it, accept it, grieve it, and move on. As I said before, I believe you will get there because you are a fighter. You should certainly continue to talk about all this though, if that helps.

I wish there were a magic pill that restores our sexuality to it's innocent state before any abuse, but there isn't. However, it is still possible to have a very fulfilling sexual life, as well as intimate relationships. In fact, the more we look deeper inside ourselves and work on our core issues, the better we can become at being a friend or a marriage partner, because we will be more sensitive to our own needs as well as to the needs of others. So that can be a positive to look forward to, if that is indeed a goal for you at this time.

Best,

Chris

 

[C. E.]

IN THE FIRST Gulf War, an oft-repeated slogan by the soldiers who fought it was simple: The way home is through Baghdad. It spoke to the larger truth that any significant battle is either an all-in effort, or a series of never-ending advances and retreats.

That is what comes to mind reading the very last sentence of your post - your declaration that this is something to be faced fully. My journey was nothing but avoidance and rationalizations and feel-good lies that I told myself for so many years. I look back and don't know who victimized me more - my abuser, the social pressures of "normal" that threatened to judge and ostracize me, or myself for not accepting me and standing by me as my own greatest friend. The fact is that - of those three - I really only ever had control and responsibility for me.

I'm not sure if that helps. But your share is quite affecting.

 

[KMCINVA]

EdNYC

I have found this issue to be the most troubling in my healing. It has taken a very long time to accept the body's reaction to the abuse is a physiological reaction and not an emotional reaction. I kept believing I must have enjoyed if my body reacted. Then I would ask, why did I go back, and my answer would be, I must have enjoyed it or I wanted it or I deserved it because my body said so. In time and after research and reading I slowly began to accept my body reacted and not my emotions. It was a very difficult concept and my beliefs held me back from ridding myself of the shame and guilt of the abuse. Today I accept it as a physiological response.

Erik I now have come home, for I have traveled through Baghdad. Being home has allowed me to find happiness and not to carry the distorted perceptions of my abuse that I carried for a lifetime. I can laugh and walk away from those who choose to judge me or anyone else for what they have lived and how I and others responded to survive. I have learned and accept what a survivor does to survive or cope is not to hurt others but rather to survive and hurt themselves. I will never forget this phrase you introduced me to. I have to say, traveling through Baghdad is a tough journey and I wish no one would ever have to travel due to abuse, war, conflict or any trauma. I would not have been able to make the journey if it had not been for the many wonderful people who supported me, loved me, stood by me and allowed me to realize the abuser and others who stifled the healing were controlling my life to hide from their life and to accept my life was worth living.

Kevin

 

[EdfromNYC]

Hey BDD

Your sharing of the pain and abuse that preceded "feeling good" when he laid on top of you, I get it. I DESPERATELY needed connection to another person but especially a man and so I became susceptible to predators who took advantage of my need for touch and sexualized it and abused me under that cover and I then took the blame because I thought "well since I wanted touch and part of it felt good, I must have wanted the entire thing and it is completely my doing". But I never wanted the confusion and my innocence being taken away at the cost of a touch. I don't know if any of that rings true with you but predators take advantage of childrens' natural, good needs. I'm sorry for the confusion that the abuse created and the injuries to your current ability to be intimate. I am trusting myself as a man (with the help of others) to get back some intimacy that I've missed out on for many years.

Also, after my first abusive episode, it led to more abuse with different men who took further advantage of me and I too was penetrated against my will and I too didn't know why this predator wanted me face down (I was a very naive 14 year old). I actually thought while it was going on to not fight or create any disturbance and to do what I needed to do to "survive" and get out of there. My life wasn't directly threatened by I was in the hands of an adult male and I also blamed myself for being there so thought since I was there, I must want this and I have to bear it. Predators used my own guilt and shame for their own purposes. I was a willing victim. I'm very sad writing those words. I thought so little of myself then.

 

[EdfromNYC]

Hey Chris

Thanks for comprehensive reply about your experience especially for me as it relates to where I am and where I'm headed. That you have traveled the same path and are further healed gives me more faith and hope.

Some things that popped for me.

I had my own abuse / orgasm situation and am working through it but I've already gotten past the worst of it. Guilt and shame are no longer a part of it,

I can see that. I didn't know until NOW that I've been consumed by the shame and guilt of a 13 year old's reaction for decades. Being caught up in self blame and self destructive behaviors kept that hidden from view. With the ending of self blame and self destruction and the choice to move forward, I am able to see what's really driving the show - it's been shame and guilt due to my body's reaction. Just naming it, calling it out and opening up about it is already leading to changes in perspective and behavior. When one is ready to heal, it seems to just start happening.

As I said before, I believe you will get there because you are a fighter.

Absolutely! I am most definitely a fighter and I LOVE it being recognized and supported. I've turned my energy inward in destructive ways and now I get to turn it outward and build and push back against the negative people/takers in my life and strengthen the positive.

it is still possible to have a very fulfilling sexual life, as well as intimate relationships.

Amen! I believe it but I also know it won't look like some fantasy world that I've lived in, alone in my head for so long. It will be both much better while being much more challenging at times but doable.

Thanks for support and identification.

 

[EdfromNYC]

Eric - I so agree with you about me having victimized myself more than anyone else. And to add to that, some people love having a willing victim around them to dump their own stuff on because the person with the victim mentality will take it on and think it is their stuff.

Regarding the social pressure to appear "normal", spot on. I didn't realize how much of my energy has been spent on trying to appear a certain way in order to try to cover up what I believed others might see but I could NEVER let them see - that I was "took part" in something that no one could ever understand ESPECIALLY since I experienced "pleasure". I've tried to cover what I felt was a scarlet letter that most could see if I don't cover it up perfectly. What an exhausting way to live.

 

[C. E.]

And to add to that, some people love having a willing victim around them to dump their own stuff on because the person with the victim mentality will take it on and think it is their stuff.

MORE TRUE than I ever imagined. It brings to mind something I heard in an NPR interview with Charles Blow - a survivor who wrote a book about the experience (Fire Shut Up in My Bones). In the Fresh Air interview (with Terry Gross), which you can listen to here, Blow talks of how abusers are often "diabolically gifted" to detect vulnerable prey. Like a shark sensing the erratic rhythms of a debilitated seal or a lion focusing on the slower calf in the herd, these abusers can sense the child in a group who is easier to ply. Having studied population biology, I know that predators of any species are quite good at culling out the sick, injured, slower, more vulnerable prey in any population. That's the way the natural world works - and at our essence, the same laws apply to us.

I was raised to be good, sweet, overly polite, and was taught to accommodate others to a fault. I was a slender, sensitive, young-looking (for my age) boy and was not into sports or that whole "testosterone" thing. I was one of the last ones to get picked for basketball or dodge ball. The first impression I made with my peers was "vulnerable," because I was not as big or as strong, and I was highly approachable. I was probably fun to tease, fun to beat up - and I'm sure I was fun for the guy who couldn't stop molesting me every chance he got. If I was a Cape Buffalo calf on the African Savannah, I would have been culled pretty quickly.

As an adult, I really tried not to think of my past. But something happened that took me right back to it. My boss in the business where I was a professional associate was a classic abuser - not sexually, but in every other way. He took advantage of me by hedging on money he owed to me, by toeing over the line with our contract and taking as much advantage as I allowed him to push, and by generally bullying me personally. So here I am - a new guy, trying to make a good impression. I do that along the lines of the good parenting I had - be the first to arrive on a work day and the last to leave, be cheerful, and always give more than you receive. My "clients" were always pleased and my cases often turned out well. That was my yardstick for job performance - if I work hard and honestly and take care of the customer, they in turn will take care of the business which in turn will make the boss happy which in turn makes me valuable to him and worth taking care of. What doesn't fit into that equation are sociopathic abusers. My boss saw my accommodation to others as an invitation to abuse and he took advantage of that. I kept giving because that was what I thought I needed to do. What was I doing wrong? That was my mantra. Until...

One day I logged onto the office computer after hours to write a report, and I saw a drafted Word document letter. It was not meant for my eyes, but my boss was sloppy about where he left it (and probably didn't expect me on the PC at that time). There it was - right on the desktop and I just flat saw it. It had my name on the title of the doc. So I read it. My boss was describing - almost bragging - to another manager how he was manipulating me to meet certain ends he had in mind - and I was suddenly twelve again. I saw at that moment what a minute earlier I would have refused to believe or even ponder. I was shocked. Then I was angry. I went home but couldn't sleep. I was up all night churning this over and over in my mind. By the time the sky turned from black to the pastel purples and pinks of the coming dawn, I had been through a difficult and candid self-evaluation. I decided I was simply not going to fall back in my usual pattern and blame myself. I'd be damned if I was going to be treated like that by anyone. This wasn't about me not being good enough for him - it was about him not being good enough for me. And that was what made that morning different from every morning of my entire life before it. I calmly gave him my notice that day without telling him why or even indicating any emotion. I got the hell away from him as quickly as my contract would allow.

That was a huge and empowering step towards healing for me. I'm only sharing a piece of it, but suffice it to say it opened a huge door on my past. It sent me on a crazy journey (something I will share here eventually) - and ultimately allowed me to redefine everything I went through as a child. I saw that I did not deserve to be abused - and changing aspects of my character to protect myself did not make me any less kind and sweet. It taught me to stand up for myself without feeling "selfish." But even more, it taught me to recognize in others that same predator trait. They're the ones who push you a little, see that you yield - and then feel like they can push you some more. Watch out for people like that - and distance yourself as quickly and as far from them as you can. The earlier me would have said - Gee, they need more. I'm not giving enough - I'm not doing something right. The later me knows better and asks - Hmmm - is this person abusing me?

I was initially reluctant to share at this level. I don't want to hijack this thread - it's not about me. And I don't think I did. Shared experience of others is what has helped me the most at MaleSurvivor, so I share in that same spirit of giving back. Maybe my journey holds something for you, Ed. The bottom line is this: sometimes it's really not us that's the problem. As a child, I gave and my abuser took. I gave and gave with everything I had. I gave to him what was not even mine to give - my consent to sexual activity. I even gave to him (or he took from me) my full sexual response - and there is nothing deeper that one can give to another than that. But it never met the bar I expected - that if I finally did it "right," he'd stop. He never stopped.

It took recognizing the same patterns as an adult in a professional venue to finally see the lines that connected me to my childhood. I think this goes to the heart of your initial post - that it's "okay to admit truths." My truth is that there are givers and takers in this world. We were givers, my friend - not takers. And if it's okay to admit truths, it's also okay to admit lies. Here's the one I discovered: the abusers do not define the victims. They only define themselves. We responded with intrinsic love because that's what good people are made of - love. When a sweet orange is squeezed, sweet orange juice comes out - it is simply in its nature. It doesn't mean it was weak. Or that it should have been bitter. Or that it should have been as hard and dry as a prune. Because it wasn't. It was an orange.

And were just boys. It was not our fault.

 

[chairdesklamp]

Eric--

"e. When a sweet orange is squeezed, sweet orange juice comes out - it is simply in its nature. It doesn't mean it was weak. Or that it should have been bitter. Or that it should have been as hard and dry as a prune. Because it wasn't. It was an orange"

Sorry I can't use the quote function--on mobile.

This was directed at someone else, but I read this and I literally feel as if I became lighter--not light-headed, but something just drained out of my muscles in my whole body .

 

[chairdesklamp]

Also, Chris. It's the same reason you lie under warm blankets and even if your dream is your best friend from junior high turning into a flying cheese sandwich, you can still wake up hard--your body in that case is responding to the warmth of the blanket. Physical stimuli is separate from mental.

Also, any feelings, yes, might be kinda similar to my maladaptive daydreaming,which is probably the only thing that kept me from suicide for 25 years. Even now, my reality is not that good. The mind has a myriad of defense mechanism to keep trauma from destroying us.

What was done to you was wrong, you aren't.

 

[i-m-Bri]

Ed,

So much does ring true. Your words touched me days ago when I read them.

So many times I clenched my teeth and took it. The way out was going deep inside and just making it through.

I was that desperate open wound. Easy prey. And like you I was responsible.

The rape happen in NYC. I was there because a man took me to sell me. Period. How the fuck for all these years did I say "...and then I went to NYC". I was up against a full grown man with an agenda I couldn't see or even understand. He promised that huge city would cure my loneliness.

I went through a time when I seriously considered the possibility that I was a masochist. I attracted all this weird shit, was it just my true nature pulling them in? I should just have the balls to dive in. But it was even more repugnant to me then "regular" sex.

In a way I just gave up. My hunger to be touched never did me any good. I've learned to live with the emptiness. I made progress last year, but I haven't been trying since June or July 2017. Yikes.

 

[C. E.]

[size:17pt]([/size]((Bri))[size:17pt])[/size]

 

[i-m-Bri]

Thank you Erick,

It's been decades and I am so far from danger but I am raw. Finally saying what it was is chilling. Fully seeing what he was doing is sobering. The truth chills me; he took me to sell me. WTF. Back then I thought it just evolved that way. But he intentionally targeted me, preyed on me took me. He could have sold one of the antiques in his apartment for way more then he could get for a stinking kid. It was power and cruel, and he didn't even need to do it. A fucking game to play outside his family.

 

[chairdesklamp]

Bri--

"In a way I just gave up. My hunger to be touched never did me any good. I've learned to live with the emptiness."

This is my problem,too. All of my abusers would use toch as a way to hold me down, both figuratively and literally. I've been touched in a friendly way that didn't have an agenda twice since I escaped. Oncewhen a friend from NorCal visited, once when I ended up talking to a Japanese American customer at work about the way we're treated, and it turned out we were both relieved to find someone else just as angry. Both times, I might've cried if that was physically possible for me. Because I need a friendly touch. Most everyone does. It's part of how we're wired as a species. There's nothing wrong with having the need. But most people aren't isolated from it.

It sucks.

There is a name for it, though. Touch Starvation.

He exploited you and your needs--abusers do that.

But the need you had and have is perfectly normal.

 

[Long Way Home]

Wow Eric, I had a similar experience. I had a boss who was REALLY mentally abusive. He was a pig to women, and he eventually picked up on the fact I was completely broken. This is before the prozac line of drugs came out.

He eventually started trying to groom me to see if I would become a sexual play thing for him. He would tell me how he would go to the bathroom and masturbate. He was straight mostly I think, but got sex wherever he could. Of course I certainly wasn't going to give in to him. The staff around me was very afraid I would go postal on him, they could not believe how he treated me, but it was a very high paying job. Once I got on prozac, I quit, but the damage this guy did to me took years to get over.