Guilt & shame ?

Guilt & shame ?
L

Lloydy

Registrant
I havent been around for a while because of problems with ageing parents, my mother broke her hip 2 months ago and obviously ended up in hospital. My father is disabled and alcoholic.
The medical world fixes things like broken hips superbly these days, and even at 83 yo she was soon soon her feet with the aid of a zimmer frame. But there's no such easy fix for dementia, which she also has.

So with much heartbreaking and difficult thinking from all the family she went into a wonderful care home yesterday.
I, and the rest of the family, and all the 'experts' involved, know 100% that there is no alternative, there is no possible way she can care for herself when she can no longer remember to wash herself.

But she knows where she is, there is a level of thinking left intact so she knows what 'we' have done, and today we she let us know EXACTLY how she feels about this decision and told me, my brother and my father to go and never come back.
We will go back, we will be there tommorow and every day we possibly can. Hopefully she will overcome her anger before she loses her mind completely.

Today we walked away so as not to cause her any more distress, it was hard but there was no alternative.
My brother and I then spent a long time with our dad, who was very distressed, talking to him and bringing him through that distress, and it was clear that our dads falsely assumed guilt over our mother predicament was the major cause of his distress.

My brother and I have had completely different reasons to feel guilt ( and shame for me ) in our lives, but we've moved on from that. Mine's my CSA and he has other reasons.
Today we walked away and knew it was the right thing to do, and we know that making the decision for mum to live in the care home was the right one.
Neither of us felt the slightest guilt or shame over that decision to place her in care, or of leaving her in her moment of anger. ( Although it might well seem that this post is an attempt to assuage any guilt I might feel )
And more importantly as far as survivors are concerned it PROVED to me that the guilt and shame we carry with us from our abuse is NOT ours to carry.

I started to give mine up a couple of years back, and as I said the other night in a post about using porn I REFUSE to feel guilty about decisions I make anymore, fuck it - I'm grown up and can think for myself. Right or wrong - if it's my choice and if I've thought about any decision I make then why should I feel guilty ? If I'm wrong then I can apologise and make ammends, it's actually easier than I thought.

I didn't ask to be abused - not guilty, I know that I didn't actually want to act out and give strangers blow jobs - not guilty, my mothers dementia is out of everyones control - not guilty.
I have made decisions on ALL of these things, that is a fact that I can't escape. But what were / are these decisions based on ?

As a boy the 'decision' to become a victim of abuse was one I had very little or, more realisticly, no control over. The acting out was a series of decisions that had their history firmly based on the abuse and my distorted thinking about my role in that abuse. I don't give bj's any more.
But the decisions regarding my mother are clear and rational decicions, she's in care and living a life none of her family can possibly give her any more- I hope!

The first two 'decisions' have many reasons for allowing the guilt and shame to surface after they have been taken, and the guilt and shame certainly did arise - big style.
I have said many times here and elsewhere that guilt and shame should be expelled from our lives.
Again, I will go back to the use of porn. Why the fuck should we feel guilt and shame over using ( any kind of ) porn when it has such a direct link to our abusive pasts?
I refuse to go there any more, if I use porn then so be it, am I any different to millions of guys around the world? I don't think so anymore.

'Guilt and shame' - fuck it, we don't need it, it wasn't our in the first place so why should we carry it with us into our adult lives?
Let's throw it out, give it back to the fuckers that gave it us in the first place!

I learned a very valuable lesson today, a very painful one when my mother told her family to go and never come back, but it was something that I have worked hard to learn as a survivor. A lesson my brother learned in a different but equally traumatic way.
What we learned was that guilt and shame drag you down, it's an unwanted and unneccessary ball and chain that hinders all normal life.

Don't go there guys, lose the guilt and shame. It's your life, never, ever forget that. Rejoice in that life, live it for yourself.

Dave
 
Dave,

I dont know how you could do that to your mother, and yet I do.

My mother is in the same predicament, but luckily she is on a course of memory tablets which she is lucky to get, because this medication costs so much, "what is new".

My MD wants her to go into care, but I refused this decision and vowed to keep her with me here, but I know the stress and strain it can cause on your own lives.

I care for her day and night but never regard myself as doing anything else than being a son to her, because I promised my father that I would care for her.

Looking after someone with dementia is tough, it is like looking after a baby as you see their minds going, and little things like switching the TV over are seemingly impossible for them, as is getting washed and cleaned.

God, do any of us need this, NO, but my family just do not see the burden it places on me, and try and control her affairs.

My mother lives for me, and for her dog who keeps her mind active, and I rue the day when she has to go into care as it would mean that I have finally given up helping.

It is in pretty much stark contrast to any help she gave me when she knew her little boy was hurting and just thought it was "a boy thing", to be sorted by my dad.

He died pretty young, I wonder why?

I am not knocking you for what you did, and the decision you made, but I am having arguments with my family on a daily basis on much the same thing.

They can either put up or shut up, the choice is theirs and theirs alone, but they live their own lives without this added worry,

ste
 
Dave,

I know how difficult it is for older people, as my parents are now 79 (my Mom's birthday was yesterday! :) ) and 80. My Dad has mellowed as he has aged, but my Mom has become testy, stubborn and difficult. I can just see her reacting as your mother has. But you have done the right thing and you know that. I can understand her anger, but in her condition she cannot appreciate the situation or see why you had to take this decision.

On acting out in adulthood my special art was, as you know, extremes of alcohol and drugs. I used to carry a lot of shame on account of that, not only for the drinking and drug use, but also for the other crazy and irresponsible things I did when I was off my head. But now I can see I was an emotionally crippled child who was taught by abuse that he was worthless and unlovable. Those boyhood feelings didn't go away just because I became an adult. I accept responsibility for what I did as an adult, but as you say, I refuse to feel guilty about it any longer. Most especially, I refuse to let those episodes translate into bad feelings about my own worth and character as a man.

You should know, by the way, that you and Mike Church have been decisive in the ways I have found to deal with these issues. Thanks so much.

Much love,
Larry
 
Ste
I know you're not knocking me for what we've had to do, everyones circumstances are different and that alters the decicions we are sometimes forced to make.

She was angry and upset about the decision, but today we visited and greeted us with a big smile and was perfectly ok with us. Like Larry says, she can't fully understand HER situation, let alone ours.

The thing that has struck me is my attitude and response to all this very emotional stuff that has been going on now for nearly 3 months. I have coped with it, and that fact alone is something both new and wonderful to me.
Despite all the stress and worry I haven't gone back to my old coping stratergies, the opposite in fact. I have discovered that I can think things through in a rational manner, and right or wrong the decicions I make are ones that I feel comfortable in carrying out.

And I firmly believe that is mainly due to not allowing guilt to taint those decisions, either as I work on them or after if things don't go according to plan. I know that I've done the best I possibly can, so there's actually no space for guilt or shame. I learn from the bad decisions, and rejoice at the good ones.

That's a whole world away from the way I dealt with lifes problems a few years ago.
In 1998 I was still acting out with strangers, I was suicidal and desperate. My marriage was failing and life was a bag of shit!
My answer to everything was to ignore it in the vain hope it went away, or someone else - my wife - would deal with it. And if that didn't work then I went off the rails big time.

But not any more, I have learned that Dave can do things that I once thought everyone else but I could do.
Therapy has taught me a huge amount about myself, and for that I cannot begin to thank my therapist enough. He's a great guy, and he NEVER let me get away with taking the easy option. If looking into the darker side of my soul caused pain - then so be it. What he did was guide me through that pain and greet me on the other side. It took a while for me to trust him enough to be there waiting, but he always was.

And it's the same here at MS, over the years I've poured my heart out here, and someone has always been there to say "Hey, it's ok, we're here for you" That's something that I am just so grateful for, and it's why I believe in what WE do here.
We're NEVER judged by other guys here, all we recieve is support, friendship and help.
Not being judged by others is far more important than we often realise.
'Judgement' brings 'guilt and shame' - and haven't we had our fill of that? Yes we have.

Of course we can't ever rid ourselves entirely from the guilt and shame of some of our past actions and deeds, but as Larry points out these acts are inextricably bound up with our abuse, and the emotional crippling that resulted.
I do feel guilt and shame for acting out, but I feel a PROPORTIONAL amount of it - not the full amount. The big share lies firmly with my abusers and the societal standards that enabled it to carry on, and later in my life failed to get me into a position of help. I didn't even recognise that I was 'abused' until I was 46 yo, and only then did I discover that help was actually available for people like me.

Of course by that time I was acting out and in a mess, but what alternative did I have for my early adult life? none.
So why the hell should I carry all the guilt and shame for things I had very little actual control over?
I just won't do it.

And that's why today I can make decisions and feel good about them.

Take a bow guys, you're the ones that showed me how destructive guilt and shame really are. :D

Dave
 
Dave,

I think you need to pat yourself on the back.

You have been through more than most guys which gives you so much more insight about life, and heck yes, we are so judged by those who could ever even know where to start their own lives.

ste
 
So, on christmas morning my brother and I went to visit, and got the frostiest reception you can imagine. She ordered us out so we went, it's less distress for her for a start.
Today, boxing day, it was the same, and we left once again.

But on the way out we talked with the wonderful lady ( and a friend of mine ) who runs the home, and she said that on christmas day our mum was fine within minutes of us leaving and enjoyed the rest of the day, had a big lunch and stayed up till 11-00pm chatting with other residents.

My brother and I are being manipulated by her, she might not fully realise what she's doing because of her dementia, but for whatever reason she is manipulating the situation to place the guilt trip on us.
My life was shaped by other peoples 'manipulations' from the day the grooming started, and it stopped, or at least began to stop, the day I decided to disclose, get therapy and change my life. It's not starting again.

I love my mum, and I will keep going to visit her. But I'm not going down the guilt and shame route again - ever. It's so destructive and poisonous, and the manipulative behaviour she's using has the potential to make everything ten times worse.

I'm just so pleased that she is being cared for properly, and I'm also pleased that I can use what I learned to survive my abuse to help me through the other crap life throws up.

My dad used to work for the City of Wolverhampton water authority, many years ago. And the Wolverhampton coat of arms contained the motto - "Out of darkness cometh light"
Which is true, I've learned things that I find invaluable now because I was forced to learn them due to my abuse. In a strange way I'm grateful for the 'light' I now experience.

Dave
 
Dave,

I look at this again and I see something that perhaps was gnawing at me but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. So here I am now, giving you the finger, as it were... ;)

You talk in this thread about being determined never to allow guilt to taint your decision-making again, and I thought yes, absolutely. But now I would like to add that there are times when guilt is a good thing. It's like other feelings we may have; it's a signal that there is something we need to have a look at. And there are, after all, times when we mess things up and need to feel guilty, in the sense of taking responsibility for mistakes we may have made.

But you are really talking about something else, and the distinction is important. You are talking about the guilt that a systematically manipulated person feels as a result of abuse that can be sexual but may also be emotional, social, etc. The abused person feels that EVERY messed-up situation or failure that occurs around him is his screw-up of the result of him not doing something better. Nothing is good enough; every success is just a fluke; every symbol of recognition is a fraud or a trap.

I would propose that therapy has taught you to see the difference. As survivors one of the most important things we have to learn is to reject blame that does not belong to us, while still remaining able to see areas where we ourselves can improve and do better. For me this is why the Family and Friends Forum has proved so important.

That ability to discern which guilt is just junk that is being foisted on us by abusers can also be used in other aspects of our lives, for example when we confront toxic people, or, as in your case, people who are in emotional distress themselves.

It just occurs to me that perhaps I took five paragraphs to say nothing more substantial than "Yes I agree". Sigh....it's Boxing Day.

Much love,
Larry
 
Larry
your five paragraphs say it all my friend.

I don't deny that guilt is a useful tool to keep us on the straight and narrow, without any guilt, or shame, we would be psychopathic.

We do need it, but as you point out it must be 'earned' for something we've done wrong, therefore the fear of that rightful guilt and shame helps prevent us from doing that 'wrong' thing.

It's one of the reasons I don't act out anymore. I've thrown the g & s of my past acting out away, it's done and gone, and I now realise that it wasn't mine in the first place. But if I did it again, with the knowledge I have now, then the g & s would be crushing. So, yes, g & s will actually play a part in future decisions, I can see that more clearly now.
Perhaps what I should have said is that I wont allow it be the overiding factor in decisions, I'll use a ( hopefully ) right amount along with all the other facts, tools and thinking rather than allowing the g & s to overwhelm my thinking before I start.

Guilt and shame WILL NOT be the starting point of decisions.

Thanks Larry.

Dave
 
Dave - a lot of what you write in this post is based upon reflection.

Let me tell you something - when I first came here I needed a lot of support. Many other people here also needed that same support and still do!

Do you know who was one of the biggest supporters for myself whenI first arrived here - it was you. Look in the mirror Dave & I think you will see one of the better men on this planet - you are a true brother to all that need a brother here!

Guilt & shame...throw them away. Take pride, and have great joy that you offer support to those that need it - the decision that you have jointly taken about your mother is a good one. She is in a place where she can receive the necessary care that she requires.

My Dad died as a result of dementia, and my Mother of lung cancer (a none smoker)...I empathise with your situation and know that it is not easy...there is also very little that you can do to change what is happening with your parents.

Be good to yourself - best wishes ...Rik
 
Hello Dave,

It has been months since I came here but I came tonight and here you are--great.

What you did for your mother is a loving thing. We have all levels of care here where I live. What is sad is that sometimes something rather serious has to happen before a person is transfered to the "Memory" Unit where they do great work.

It is better you could see reality now rather than have her walk outside in the middle of the night or some other equally dangerous thing.

It is good to hear from you. I hope I can come back a little more often.

Bob
 
I just want to thank all of you guys for this very thought provoking thread.

Lots of love,

John
 
Bob
it's so good to hear from you again - everything OK with you ?

Dave
 
Hi people,

My name is AJ and I am a 45 yo male with a wife and 2 gorgeous girls, living in Australia. I am a perfectionist and an overachiever and that has made me wealthy. I also feel that I am a complete fraud and lead a life of utter hypocrisy. Here is my story.

I was raised by quarrelling parents and a very physically abusive father. At age 11, our priest made a move on me but I had fast feet. At age 12 i was victimised by our doctor, who nearly stuck his penis inside me but again my fast feet saved the day. Ashamed and embarrassed about the fondling, the sucking and the exposure (all by the good doc) I shut myself into my world and became a good athlete and a brilliant student. At age 13 I became sexually active, masturbating, initially frantically, then at a more humane pace! During that year, I ended up in hospital twice from my father's beating hands. I left home when I was discharged and lived on the streets for 2 years. I disrupted by schooling and my adolescence. People felt pity on me so I did not starve and eventually when my mother found me, left my father and took me in. A year later, she became very sick, so my dad came back, but by then I was older, stronger and I was able to twart his blows.

I thought that I had provoked the advances of the priest and the doc. I felt ashamed. I felt the need to be accepted by a male in my life, since all the pivotal males had deserted me. I became confused sexually. I was teased mercilessly at school, when I went back. I developed mannerisms unlike those of young teenage boys.

I finished school top in my class. I was awared national awards for art and sport. I left home again at 18 and gave up a scholarship so as to be far from home and start fresh.

Thoughout all this, I was attracted to girls and had girlfriends, but I would also check the men in the showers, but never acting on it. I became a sex addict with personal and girl sex.

Six yers later I married this gorgeous girl and she has been wonderful. I started a business as a professional, and we are doing well. I have 2 magnificent kids who are treated like I would have liked to be treated.

I joined a fanatic homophobic religious group in an effort to stamp out my attraction to men. That worked well for 15 years. The one balmy evening, during a business trip, in a classy Boston precinct, I was raped by 3 masked men, left bleeding and requiring an operation to reconstruct my anal passage. I was wearing women's pads for about 9 months.

Since then, I wished to die and my life changed. Sex with my wife has become almost impossible, but she is kind and understands me. However, upon my return home, I have found the desire for male company much stronger. I spoke to a psychologist friend of mine who suggested this is because of my lack of a male friend in my life, particularly in my youth.

Since then I met this married guy, wife, 3 kids, who wanted casual sex, and we became lovers. We have been together for 4 years now. My addiction to sex has lessened, although I still sneak a bit of porn (Gay and straight - both excite me). I have sex with him monthly - I am too busy for more than that. He holds me, kisses me and makes me feel loved. This is not the attention that I would have wished to have, but it keeps me normal, and keeps me from crashing my car against a brick wall.

Of couse, now I live with the shame of being bisexual and my wife would leave me in a flash if she knew, but I can not ever tell her. She is still a religious fanatic nut. I have tried to break this tryst, but it is asphyxiating everytime I even think of doing so.

My parents are dead now, and so is the priest and the doc (the priest became bishop by the way). I have all the luxuries I want, but I have no peace, and I live a life of pretending because if I stop, without my kids life will not be worth it.

I am not sure if this is the right forum for all my bagage, thus sorry if it is not. I needed to tell my story, because it is such a burden to carry and it hurts me whenever I ponder over it.

As I am preparing to go visit my male lover, I hate myself and I tell myself to accept who I now am. I have to blame my circumstances about who I have become - not doing so is unbearable.

I discovered your site this morning while reading the magazine Men's Health, that was in my office chambers. I am glad I did.

Regards

AJ


what I would have expected to have from
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top