Giving, and, what's changed

Giving, and, what's changed
S

SAR

In a recent conversation with my boyfriend ( :D YEAH, I know!!! ) I mentioned something about how he had stayed with me during this one particularly bad (and extended) period, even though he hadn't wanted to be with me at the time.

He responded with, "I never stayed with you out of obligation. I wanted to stay with you." I was floored, I'd always assumed (since he was having an affair and spending all his time out of the house, and we were fighting constantly) that he stayed with me for all the stereotypical reasons that unhappy men stick around--kids, avoiding the public spectacle of splitting up, obligation, etc.

I said, "Why did you want to stay with me?" (not, Why did you treat me like trash then, which is what I would have said 3 months ago... I'm learning too) AND HE SAID, "because you've always been so good to me. You're like my Giving Tree."

PEOPLE. I know that this is supposed to be a compliment but I don't know how well it speaks to my character. In fact it makes me feel like an idiot. Do you all know this book The Giving Tree? It's terribly sad. It has a bittersweet but not very satisfying ending, and I don't know why we read it to kids. The Giving Tree is not a fun character to be. And the boy she loves is not either. I mean I love my boyfriend and if it came to all that, I would give him all that I had, and I guess maybe it has come to that, but it just hit me like a ton of bricks. How taken for granted have I been? How blind and willingly destructive, at the time, when I really did think that he didn't even want to stick around?

And why do I feel like still to this day I would give him all that I've given him and more? Gladly? Because I know that I would. Should I be angry at myself for that? Or grateful that I am not a tree and can grow back after he's cut me down? And how dangerous is it to be able to grow back, and grow back? Doesn't that just mean that you can get cut down and cut down?

After he said it I kind of made a face and we both giggled about it a little. I am happy that he is able to talk about and recognize the way things have been in the past. How they were bad for both of us. And I am happy because it's clarified some things for me, I guess... even before he had said that tree thing I had been thinking about the way things used to be for us, not even the giving/taking, but in general all the tension and distrust and alternating silence and screaming. Reading the posts on this forum too has clarified this for me. I can look back now and see how our life used to be and it is a life I am determined never to have again. I never knew until now that you could be married to someone and not live in that tense sad world.

I guess that's the conclusion I've come to. I will give him the rest of what I have, again, but I won't go back there with him. And if he can't get out of there then it's a good thing I'm not a tree and I have legs with which to go somewhere else.

I remain an optimist though.
 
So sorry - do not know this book: synopsis, please & then we'll talk....
 
It's a book by Shel Silverstein, who wrote "Where the Sidewalk Ends" etc.

It's the story of a boy and a tree who love each other very much, and the boy plays in the tree, eats the apples out of it, swings on the branches, etc.

Then the boy grows up and doesn't come around to the tree much anymore, but every time he does come back the tree gets all psyched and begs him to hang out and play with her (each time this happens he's much older than the last) and every time he wants something else from the tree and she's always happy to give it to him b/c she loves him.

First I think he wants to make money and he asks the tree if she can give him some money and she says, take my apples and sell them, so he takes all her apples and doesn't come back for a very long time. When he comes back he's grown and asks if he can cut off all her branches to build a house, and she's happy to and he doesn't come back for a long time but she's still happy to have helped him. As an older man he comes back and says he just wants to go very far away for a long time, and the tree lets him chop down her trunk to make a boat and go away. Every time this happens there's a page that says "and the tree was happy." and then there's one, I think the last one, that says, "the tree was happy, but not really."

Finally at the end the "boy" comes back as a very old man and the tree is so sad b/c she's just a stump and has nothing left to give him. And he says that he's very tired and all he wants is a place to sit, so she gets all happy again and says that stumps are good to sit on, and then they're together again and she's happy and that's the end.

It's a pretty short book. My plot summary is probably as long as the whole book.
 
OOOOOOHHHHH! NOW I *get* it!!! No WONDER you had that ambivalent reaction!! I think I would've wanted to slug him!

(You know, I did vow that I would NEVER visit the Male Survivor forum again, but before I made the promise, I read some fascinating posts about "acting out" that I wish some of our Guys would consider posting over here at F&F...)

Yeah - you two are doing SOOOOO much better than before, but sometimes a left-handed compliment can be pretty mean-spirited, too. I was once in a bookgroup with a woman psychiatrist whose special area of interest was "teasing." The jist of her research was that there is an element of gratuitous cruelty in every tease. Since learning that, I've tried to *think* before I open my big mouth, but sometimes it just isn't possible.

In your SO's situation, he seems to be taking a swipe at himself as well as at you! Yeah, I'd be pretty miffed at what seems to have an undercurrent of "I'm a jerk, so you're an even bigger one for caring so much about me..."

UGH! UGH! UGH!

Given where the two of you have been, though, it's perfectly understandable that there would be some left-over unresolved guilt feelings - hence the L.H. Compliment.

You know what? I think it's great you can vent here & then act more reasoned in your response once you've calmed down. He really does seem to be trying - he just doesn't seem to know how far he can trust HIMSELF.

Even in relationships with "healthy" people I'll bet this kind of dynamic comes up more than we would suspect.
 
Hey SAR...

Some of us read little goony books, and get "other" things out of them. If he said you are his giving tree, and it was meant as a compliment, then I would be leaning toward the idea that he wasn't "taking", as much as he was realizing and appreciating that you were willing to keep believing in him and helping him, even though he knew he was being a dork. Sometimes it's not the "ending" of the book that makes the biggest impression.

I'm sure it has warmed his heart that you haven't given up on him.

I don't think it makes you an idiot. I think you see something you are willing to wait for, because it will be well worth it when it gets there. If you give up, there is no chance.

It sounds like things are looking up!

That is so cool!

Lynn
 
Boy that would be a hard comment to blow off. He must have really been smiling when he said it is all I can figure. I think my wife would have jumped me over that one if she took it the way you have. To give your husband the benefit of the doubt, he may not get the same message from the book as you do. He may see the tree as the only stable and loving thing in his world, and what he said might have been meant in a good way. Although any answer to your question short of because I love you would hurt.

I think Kolisha has a good point. If you havent you should jump over and check out the acting out thread. There is a separation between things I have done out of love, and things I have done because of my abuse. When I cheated on my wife, it wasnt for love, it was for the high, to express things my abuse put in me. I loved my wife, but I hurt her as I acted out. Men have this uncanny ability to separate sex and love. I know I can have sex without love very easily, and that makes it possible to rationalize your way into things you shouldnt. That in no way excuses what I have done, dont get me wrong, but the point I want to make is that I loved my wife dearly. I didnt cheat because I didnt love her. I cheated because I needed to fill voids in my life that had nothing to do with her. I hate that I did this to her, and Im not sure understanding why helps all that much.
 
Men have this uncanny ability to separate sex and love. I know I can have sex without love very easily, and that makes it possible to rationalize your way into things you shouldn't.
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I dont think sex-without-love is solely the realm of men. After all, men who have one night stands, have sex with women they just met, or men who have sex with prostitutes are having sex with women who can obviously separate sex from love!

Before I met my partner I too have had sex without love.. in the back of my mind I justified it because it was exclusive (one partner at a time) and I think I was fooling myself into believing that at first I had some semblance of some kind of a relationship that just *might* work out, but after awhile I really didnt even like these guys but I kept with them for the sex!Now who is haivng sex without love? Took a lot of effort to lie to myself for so long. Still getting over it.

P
 
As for my "good point..." My "better" point is that I no longer go over to the Male Survivor threads... ;)

However, would just LOVE to get an update on the "acting out" & the "sabatage" stuff.

Is there any way some of those posts can be sent over here to F&F????
 
There are always exceptions, but women tend to fill their emotional needs while having sex. Like you pointed out PAS, you had to create some sort of feeling in your mind to enjoy it, like there was potential there. Thats what Im talking about. Men can go just for the physical side. There doesnt have to be anything beyond getting off, no potential for a future, no mental connection, nothing. I know there has to be women who do this too, but I havent talked to any as I have worked on recovery. Most women sex addicts I have gotten to know are more love addicts. They are in it for more than sex. They tend to be looking for affection, intimacy and attention, where male sex addicts are there to get off, and typically dont want any other connection. Women use sex to get what they really need more than for the sex itself. Its not a very important point, but it does mean that when I cheated on my wife, it wasnt because I needed love or anything. It means I could still love my wife completely, and be unfaithful. I wanted to point that out so that SAR can see her husband might have loved her with all his heart, and still acted out. see my recovery started with work for sexual addiction, and then flowed over into the root cause, my abuse. I have talked to many women just like I talk with you guys here, as well as more one on one. I have also talked with mates of sex addicts, trying to help them understand how a man could be in love with them, and still cheat. I hope my clumsy words in some way convey how it is possible to love a person and still run around.

Kolisha, that thread kind of went dormant. I understand that that forum is supposed to be for men only, so I understand why you dont go there. I commend you for doing that. I guess it would be up to someone above me to send it over, but I could see where it could help spouses and partners.
 
Originally posted by phoster:
Men can go just for the physical side. There doesn't have to be anything beyond getting off, no potential for a future, no mental connection, nothing. I know there has to be women who do this too, but I haven't talked to any as I have worked on recovery. Most women sex addicts I have gotten to know are more love addicts. They are in it for more than sex.
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Hmm.. well I do personally know some women who do just go for the physical side.. (also what about prostitutes? I certainly dont think that they are selling themselves for "love") but again I also know that every single one of them that I know have MAJOR issues with intimacy and self esteem due to abuse, etc. I dont think that men who engage in sex for the sake of sex only are so different. I cant say that I know too many men either who are engaged in sex for sex only that are not dealing with issues of intimacy, abuse, etc.

HHm.. I am findign that reading/writing this thread makes me feel so scared... Reading all of this just makes me want to cry.. and I am getting all anxious..

I guess part of me doenst want to think that maybe my partner coudl do some of the things that other surviors coudl do/have done. I mean, he had major issues, and was somewhat promiscuous in his single days, particularly right after the abuse, but even then, he still had some long term relationships and he never cheated with ANYONE.. but I do think that he maybe does not qualify as a sex addict? A masturbation addict definitely... I dont know.. i think there is a big difference between sex addiction and acting out.. maybe sex addiction could be classified as acting out but not all acting out is sex addiction...

damn..

I guess this stupid post that I am writing here begs the question why the hell am I sitting here, splitting hairs on this whole definition of acting out... I have had a major major major major issue with sexual "competition" my whole life..

Maybe I'm just writing this to try and somehow psychologicall protect myself. I mean, I konw my partner has never cheated, and even when he was seeking a lot of sex with people he barely knew, I know that he was also seeking love.. although I know he did get into some relationships just for sex only... only to realize after the fact that he felt awful, ashamed, guilty... is it possible that he has confused sex with love?? I have known my partner for so long.. that I do know he is a major love addict... so then could he *really* get into a sexual relationship for sex only??

Part of me just doesnt want to think of him that way.. as someone who could DO that, and that I try to think of him as no different than me, someone who was seeking to be loved, but also someone still dealing with SA, someone who confused sex and love, someone who was vulnerable and traumatized...

Why the hell does this bother me so much? Why does this make me feel so insecure? To know that somewhere deep down that my partner could just have sex for the sake of having sex.. and I know that is just NOT who he is.. it never has been (I have known him since 1973 - well BEFORE the abuse) and this just scares the hell out of me.. makes me really not want to be with him, makes me feel really un-special and not very emotionally safe.

Damn here I am sitting at my desk, crying..

And knowing that I've also got some major repressed memories of my own... and I certainly know I've not really processed some somewhat traumatic sexual experiences of my own... up to know I have just called them "things that just happen to naiive teenage girls".. not really willing to go any further on this at this moment...

Phuuuuuuuckkkkkk........

My mind is spinning...

P
 
Even doctors argue over these points. Can sex be an addiction? I guess I dont think it matters what you call it. I like to address the bottom line issues. Call it what you will, if a person masturbates to deal with stress, to escape and to fill non-sexual needs, there is a good chance they are using it in an unhealthy way. Masturbation can be addictive. I was very monogamous as a whole. When I speak of cheating on my wife, it was a cyber affair, not a physical one.

Whether we call it acting out, addiction or any other word you want to use, the effect is an unhealthy and excessive use of sexual release. If a person is so driven to that high that they put it before other things in their life, it likely isnt healthy. Fantasies and masturbation were the main ways I expressed that.

When you leave your mate alone on the couch or in bed so you can have a few minutes alone, and when you neglect them so you can masturbate, you are doing something unhealthy. Sex should build intimacy, and anything detracting from it is unhealthy.

This is where I have made the most progress. I have come to realize how unhealthy use of sex can undermine a marriage. Porn and fantasies tend to dilute a persons feelings of attraction and excitement for their partner. Your partner and his or her normal sex life becomes boring, even if you dont intend it that way. I found I was wanting my wife to engage in the things I looked at and fantasized about. No one can be all things at all times. It is my opinion that filling your mind with all of this to motivate yourself for masturbating weakens the bond you have for you mate.

Since I have stopped using porn, and have limited my fantasies to only include my wife and I, Im finding that our time together is much more meaningful and fulfilling. The longer I hold on and purge the unhealthy things, the stronger our bond grows, and the weaker the hold of the old stuff. A once overwhelming urge to use internet porn is gone. The feeling that the grass is greener somewhere else is fading. I am more settled with what I have, so I am willing to commit more to it.

Masturbation requires motivation. When your partner is doing this, what do you think they are likely doing? They are firing up their wildest fantasies and using those to get off. More than likely, those are things not involving you, or if they do involve you are not going to be things you would do. Suddenly, you seem boring, and they wonder if there isnt someone better suited for them out there. I began looking for a means of expression, and with me it ended up being writing. Throw in a woman who was my equal, and you have an on-line affair that was close to becoming a real one. I would warn anyone to beware of sexual compulsion and addiction issues. You have to remember, victims are very practiced at hiding and keeping things secrete. What lies beneath thier compulsive masturbation? it could be fairly beniegn, or it could be very bad. certainly, it is a concern that must be adressed if a relationship is to be fulfilling and satisfying for both partners. IMHO
 
Originally posted by phoster:
You have to remember, victims are very practiced at hiding and keeping things secrete. What lies beneath thier compulsive masturbation? it could be fairly beniegn, or it could be very bad.
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We have discussed this.. and I well know that there was an element of addiction this. Trust me I'm well versed in addiction issues. Dad's an alcoholic. Grandfather's an alcoholic. Partner's a recovering/sober alcoholic/drug addict/masturbation addict. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

I always had an inkling of the addictive part of his masturbation but I never pressed too much on it. There's worse things to be addicted to - healthwise anyhow, and I figured he would work through it when the time was right. And he is doing so now in his group.

P
 
I dont mean to come across as critical, guys who live in glass houses thing :) if i came across that way, i'm sorry. just as you point out, it is a matter of the lesser evil type thing. i still struggle with too much mb, but compared to affection, intimacy, porn and cybering problems, it seems small. i imagine i'll get around to adressing it in time, just as your hubby is doing.
 
hey everyone

He knows it was a questionable "compliment"... I don't know about mean-spirited, I think if anything it was a way of apologizing. Part of my recent frustration with the way things have been going lately is the fact that he avoids apologizing at all costs. So it's possible that what angers me about the "giving tree" is that it's a way for him to admit to what he's done, but make it about me instead so that I won't "miss" the apology. I mean how much sense would it make for him to say, "I'm sorry that you've given me so much?"

And I know that it's not always the ending that matters but I think that what matters to me right now is the question, Where does it end? When do we get to start being a different book? Hopefully before I'm a stump and he's a sad old man...

The "taking" that I'm talking about has not much really to do with his cheating on me as it does with all of the other things that happened during that bad time. It's one of the more identifiable features of the bad time, but the fighting, the emotional distance between us, the general inequality of the whole structure of our relationship...that's what I'm talking about.

about sex and love... I know that what my boyfriend was looking for, although it certainly wasn't love, and it had all the trappings of "sex," wasn't either one of these things. It was about pretending. He wanted to be someone different with a different life and he wanted someone he could act out that fantasy with. Not that he made up a new life and then told her about it... he didn't do all that... it's just that when he was with her, he got to be Not Himself. And that in itself was the attraction. I think that being Not Yourself can be sexual but it's mostly about emotions and memories, and the sex gets thrown in there because it's there at the root of the problem. And I think that this pretending is at the root of a lot of different addictions. As someone with a history of addiction in my family, the best advice I ever got about addiction was "If you do anything, and you find that it makes you feel prettier, STOP." The "prettier" thing I don't know about, I think maybe that's a "cult of femininity" thing (?) but there are other adjectives you can throw in there. In general it's advice that's served me well.

Like this advice...

Although any answer to your question short of because I love you would hurt.
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:D :D Phoster give back the answer key!

Sar
 
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