Gay men and sexual abuse

Gay men and sexual abuse
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dwf

Registrant
This is a subject that has been on my mind for many years. It is not a topic that is mentioned much in the gay community I guess because of its sensitive nature.

What I'm talking about is what I perceive to be a distinct lack of support in the gay world, at least in the US, for anti child sexual abuse efforts.

The rationalization I hear is that since gay men are generally thought of to be sexual perverts and interested in 'recruiting' new and younger members--a belief I find is patently false, since most abusers are hetero males--but that this stigman attached to gay men prevents them from addressing the subject.

On a personal level, I have had mixed results in discussing my sexual abuse with other gay men, particularly those not in active recovery from sexual abuse. Among several I got the reaction that as young teens they had craved sexual attention from older males, therefore did not see anything wrong with the adults who had sex with them while they were still juveniles.

One hopes that their attitude has not followed them into adulthood and that they do not see themselves as allowed to have sex with young guys because they 'wanted' it.

I was really discouraged by these reactions--or non-reactions. I am interested in the other experiences of male survivors in regards to the attitude of the gay male community towards sexual abuse.

As a group of people who might feel persecuted or liable for blame, I can see why some gays might not want to have anything to do with the topic of sexual abuse, regardless of their own experiences.

Personally I have made efforts to speak out in gay chat rooms and discussion boards about sexual abuse and how many gay teens are abused.

I hope that in some way gay men can be reached to help educate people about the facts of sexual abuse. That even if a young person or child appears to desire sexual contact, that it is still wrong to have such contact. That it is never OK to have sex with young guys for any reason.

I am really at a standstill on what to do and how to proceed. I know sexual abuse affects so many of us gay guys. And I wish that more people could be educated and be more vocal in their opposition to sex with young people.

I have noticed that in many European countries, especially in France, that many gay discussion boards, chat rooms and other gay organizations have explicit warnings against any sexual activity targetting young people and specific mention of the unacceptablility, illegality and criminal nature of such actions.

Wonder why we don't have that on gay sites in the States?

Why do 'boiz' advertise their youth on gay sites without any outcry from the rest of the gay community?

These are of course, rhetorical questions, but I would be very interested in hearing any feelings or thoughts any other survivors might have.

It's not easy to address a topic like this when many of us have lived our lives in fear of being accused of this very thing. Your comments and thoughts would be most welcome.

Thanks.

Regards,
 
Danny,
That's a tough issue to challenge. For a lot of teens, sex with older men are sometimes sought as a means of teaching them what to do. But still, you are right, that is still abuse. As for me, I know that my numerous rapes by older boys were unwanted even when at times I responded with a degree of pleasure around 16 and 17 before it all stopped. I consider myself as gay but then again I'm not sure? I was married, thinking that is what I was supposed to do. That failed. I met a man afterwards and fell in love and that love was wonderfully returned. That lasted 3 years. That failed because he wanted to be with other men as well. Not for me. Sex has always been confusing as a result of parental and multiple rapes from 9 to 17. I have had no partner since because I don't understand what feels sexually safe anymore. Neither of them worked. My only fulfilling relationship was with the man. So, my consenual sexual experience has been with 1 woman and 1 man. My other sexual experiences were definitely SA and nothing less. So, I guess gay men do struggle with the question, did I want it. Was that what I was looking for? Did that make me gay? Therefore, honestly I think it hasn't outraged the gay community because we don't know how to separate who we are with what might have happened willingly and unwillingly. That is a highly political and almost revolutionary subject that probably should be explored if society felt we "gay" people deserved eqaul attention as the "straight" world.
You sound like a very esoteric deep thinker. It is definitely something to think about.
 
Danny,

There is no doubt in my mind that younger gay boys can be coerced into sex. It is abuse. When it happened to me I thought that it was my fault, that it was something that I did to attract that attention, and yes, I did enjoy some of it. But it also scared me. I knew it was wrong. I didn't know how to deal with those feelings so I buried them along with my innocence, and I kept those feeling buried for 38 years. I was married to a wonderful woman for almost 34 years, have two wonderful daughters but now that I'm widowed I've finally acknowledged that I'm gay. I probably knew that when I was eleven but didn't know what to call it except the cruel names that others used so disparagingly.

Abuse is abuse. If it happens to a young boy, a youth, or someone in prison, it is still abuse. It cannot be tolerated and should not be tolerated in any caring society. No one is asking for it to happen and no adult should be able to manipulate someone else by using their authority over them. Adults are seen as all-knowing to children. Children don't know how to say no to an adult. It is the responsibility of the adult to protect the child not to blame the child for the adult's treachery and deceit.

Everyone in the gay community needs to come to grips with this issue and take a stand that this will not be tolerated. Boys need to be able to grow up and decide for themselves what their orientation is without being used and abused or being subjected to ridicule by their peers. That's the way I would like it to be in my perfect world anyway. I can still dream.

Steve
 
Thanks, guys, for your responses.

One of the big problems that I had with accepting myself as a gay man (and also liking other gay men) was that I found little regard for the age or maturity of potential sex partners coming from they gay men I was first exposed to.

I am speaking here of older men having sex with younger guys, some of them teenagers. The attitude was one of "Well, they'll learn someday. Might as well be me that gets to him first."

I never heard anyone speak out against such comments and found that attitude, if not the practice to be widespread.

For me as a survivor of sexual abuse which occurred when I was a young teenager, 15, it bothered me tremendously to perceive that was what it meant to desire other men. That there were no rules, no morality, no sense of decency.

I realize now that I was hanging around in gay bars with people who were not the best representatives of what it means to be gay.

I was also probably looking for any reason to hate being gay, since I hated myself and blamed myself for the abusive relationship I had been in as a teenager.

I am shocked to this day to hear gay men comment of pubescent guys or ogle young teens at a swimming pool, for example. Today I am most likely to speak my mind and say something sarcastic like, "What's wrong with you? Why don't you stick to guys your own age. That's just wrong what you're saying.".

The reception I get is like the proverbial turd in the punch bowl, as we say in West Texas.

I'm Ok with being treated like that and personally don't even want to be around guys that have that type of attitude.

It has helped me a lot to pursue my recovery and I suspect a lot of gay men are acting out because they too were sexually abused.

I like the way you express your ideas on the subject, Stephen. Thanks for sharing that. I have thought of approaching some national gay organizations and seeing what types of policies etc. they have on the topic male sexual abuse.

Could be that I'm wrong and that there really is not as big a problem as I think. But I have read from other sources that they perceive the same silence as I do.

Russ, I appreciate your comment also and would like to hear more about the idea you express and more about the topic of the way male sexual abuse is seen by gay American men.

I think I understand what you mean when you say that there is not gay community.

However, someone out there thinks there is such a thing. On a whim I typed in 'gay community' in MSN search.

The results? 94,258,826 results in .15 sec.

So, there's a lot being written about gay community, whether it exists or not.

Thanks for your input. Looking forward to more.

Regards,
 
Coercison (spelling) desire, rape happens to us young and vulneralbe boys needing someone to hold the lost of us. I am still lost but will someone hold me now that I am older and intolerate to abuse? No, that leaves us, the isolated more and more alone and in pain. Our abusers, and in my case there were many, champions of our lives. They stopped us from knowing the real deal, the real love, the real respect of a fellow human for another. What are we to do with our distorted image of humanity? My lonelines overwhelms me. How do you fix that? You are so good at metaphors for healing but you don't meet the scared and vulnerable boys, now men, who can not find there voice still.
 
Hi Danny! I see I came back just in time to see you taking on another bull by the horns! :)
Among several I got the reaction that as young teens they had craved sexual attention from older males, therefore did not see anything wrong with the adults who had sex with them while they were still juveniles.
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This is a lot like a problem the straight community has, they condone young male teens having sex with older women. One of my friends in the navy, boasted about three airline attends kidnapping him, and having sex with him for three days when he was young. He did not see this as wrong, he was a young man sowing his wild oats among three pretty but older Lady's.
Society somehow expects a young man to be more experienced than a young girl and to be able to teach her in the ways of sex, so they turn their heads when he gets that experience from a older lady.
You are right, both societies should not condone it, and should put the responsibility on the older person to say no to the offer of sex by the younger person.
 
Hi Danny,

This is something I have thought about and noticed myself. When I came out in Ireland over 20 years ago. The catholic church was at the height of its power, gay sex was illegal (though there were few prosecutions) and there was a lot of fear and hatred at the start of that Aids epidemic, murderers who killed gay men got off by saying that the victim had made a pass at them. We had a gay pride march with thirty people in Dublin. Things have changed so much there now but at the time we were treated much the same as paedophiles. We were sexual outlaws just as child abusers often see themselves. The catholic church still has more to say about gay people than paedophiles, the new pope said we are morally intrinsically evil and that abuse by priests is done by only one per cent of priests which he says is less than the general population. As far as many people are concerned we are as morally evil as child abusers, any one who was abused or even bothers to think about this would know this is rubbish.

All that is to say that we had been put in the same boat as abusers and treated in the same manner. I dont think this is an excuse for gay people being less willing to see child abuse as the crime it is but for those not familiar with what child abuse is the attitude to homosexuality may make it less obvious to non-survivors what is wrong with men abusing teenage boys. I guess we can see the clear distinction between adult consensual sex and sexual abuse, more than gay guys who were not abused. The other thing that strikes me is that in a case like Woody Allens marrying his wifes adopted daughter the controversy would be much bigger had it been a young man rather than a woman. I guess the attitude to and hostility to gay people muddy the waters around sexual morality and crimes against children for everyone. For me and any survivor the distinction is clear. The debate around age of consent is not so clear in hetro or gay relationships.
Not sure how clear that is but I think this has something to do with why gay people are not always as clear as we would want about the ethics.

Peter.
 
Danny

Great discussion among the members and your presentation is on the mark. I was abused not by a gay man but my father who hated gays. It was all right for him to molest his own son, but son stay away from gays. In fact both of my parents were intolerant of gays because they attack young boys. Hello? When I confronted my mother about my abuse, she told me we were not to discuss this. As a result I felt abondon and abused for many years up until I was 20.

Abuse of children and teens is not acceptable for me, but the prevailing attitude as you stated among some straights and gays that is okay to molest boys, because it will not hurt them. It will provide an experience they need for the future. For me it comes back to the reality that society needs to accept that boys can and are being abused not because they want it or need it. On the whole we (survivors) need to come out of our isolation, which is a safe place we think. The more we talk about how wrong this is and how much it has hurt, destroyed us; this attitude that it is okay or happens only to a few us will not go away.

My thoughts are not directed at anyone who posted but about the situation of the society we dwell in that doesn't acknowledge this reality.

Chuck
 
Very intersting topic. I've heard Gay men talk about young teen boys in the same way as heterosexual men talk about young teen girls - all this talk about "busting that cherry", etc. Nauseating really. If young people are going to experiment it should be with their peers not adults. The age difference between a teen boy and an adult creates an unquestionable power difference. I also find the notion that young Gay boys need teaching to be repugnant. We don't (usually) allow men to teach our young daughters how to have sex. Boys should learn about sex but.. not from older men. I don't question the notion that teens have sexual desires. We all know they do. I happen to feel that they should express these desires in healthy ways and I don't think that can happen when an adult is "teaching" a boy. I get the feeling that society is OK with young Gay boys being victimized. "There Gay so they are asking for it" is the logic I suppose. Gay boys deserve the same protections we reserve for our heterosexual teen girls and boys. If it were my son, I would prefer he learn with his mates rather than some older guy. I'd be pissed if I felt some guy my age was trying to nail my son. A child is still a child regardless of sexual preference/orientation and no adult should be "teaching" a child how to have sex. Well, that my opinion, anyway.
John
 
this may make no sense so be warned

first off the gay community thing is just another way of seperateing gays and str8 so i wont go there

as far as young guys dateing older guys ya its a thrill you want the older guy to teach ya and you want the bragging rights that go along with it not that i am saying its right but that how it is , just like a young guy going after an older woman or a young lady going after an older guy its wrong but then brings the point of what makes the age differances acceptable? if a 17 girl dates a 23 yr old guy it ok but if a 17 yr old boy dates a guy 23 its abuse personally i think its just another form of bashing its "ok for str8 not gay " now im not saying its ok say the boy was 15 and guy was 23 thats too young and thats a kid whos still learning in life (not that one ever stopps learning)now as an older guy i personally would never get close to a guy much younger then me not attacted to that . My main point is "why do older gays seek younger gays" or vice versa . Well maybe because the younger gays are scared to be out and want someone to love and except them and alot of times kids their own age will make it to difficult for them in their lives , as for an older guy is excepting has been in the situation and will give the younger the attention or whatever else may be felt that is needed for the younger kid, now the older guy want the younger basically because the younger lacks experiance wants the older guy there giveing the older guy a rush.
personally have not know many guy who will or would date a teenager basically because its robbing them of a childhood when they should be discovering their life with pll their own age
 
(Self-edited some punctuation :o )

Very interesting topic, Danny!

The very first time I identified, as abuse, what I had previously rationalized as an unfortunate "coming of age" story I was met with a mixture of reactions.

It was in the context of a workshop called "The AIDS Mastery" that I attended in 1990 shortly after I was diagnosed HIV-positive. One of the homework assignments was to write a story from our childhood. As I wrote, and then read, my story the power of what had happened to me those many years ago was seen in a whole new light. No one, gay or straight, deserves to be treated the way I was, as a 12 or 13-year old - especially by a guy three, maybe four, times older.

Whether or not HE was gay - and he certainly did not seem to be, as I recall - sex between someone as old as he was and someone as young as I was is completely wrong and - as I only identified doing that workshop assignment - is completely abusive!

To get back to your topic, however, the range of reactions from others at the workshop was quite something. Participants were not all gay men, nor were they all HIV-positive. Some were family members (male and female), straight men, etc.

While I do not wish to indict the entire group of gay men there I can honestly say that, by a 4 to 1 ratio, it was the women and straight men who reached out to me with concern about what I had just identified as having been sexual abuse.

The reaction from most of the gay men could be summed up as "Well, who among us can say that ALL of our sexual experiences have been good ones?"

Unfortunately my illness trumped whatever work I could have done on the s.a. for several more years until, as I have posted here at other times, the trauma of being hit by a car two years ago reawakened all previous trauma - particularly the sexual abuse which, after that first incident, continued as serial cruising through my teens and twenties and, ultimately, led to my becoming HIV-positive and nearly dying a few years after that workshop. (My God, I'll never be a successful writer if I continue to write such long sentences :) )

Long story a little bit shorter, last year I picked up "Victims No Longer" again, found you folks at MaleSurvivor.org, and set out on a journey of therapy and support that has been the most healing and self-compassionate phase of my life.

While I have experienced the gay "community" at its very best, especially when I was dying like so many of my friends who have gone before me, I have also experienced it at its most shallow, body-worshipping worst.

Today I find myself identifying more with survivors, regardless of their sexual orientation, and less with gay men solely because of theirs.

Maybe, I hope one day, I will be ready for intimacy with a gay guy.

For now, I am finding my way in a very caring world of survivors.

Peace,

Kenn
 
The last phrase I read on Ken's post really hit me hard. "Maybe one day I will be ready for intimacy" that is my struggle being a gay man and having been alone for over 2 decades because the abuse that happened to me makes me fear others motives. I want intimacy but reaching out scares me still. When and how to you find away through all that confusion? I guess what I am saying is ..... How do you begin to trust again?
 
amen to that. in my experience, it seems that most gay men dont understand the concept of sexual abuse. it is almost a 'right of passage' or something, to have sexual involvement with an older man when youre young. abuse is somehow eroticised and i think its pretty disturbing. there is nothing sexy about a child being raped.
 
Some day?

Got a "trigger" from another posting about some young man reflecting on getting abused by an Army Sgt. There goes me at 18 or so a long time ago
believing that after all I was in the Army and "safe". I did turn the bastard in via a letter when I was in Vietnam, the head nurse (Major) wrote me back that he was leaving the Army, I was ticked because he did not go to Vietnam. I would have loved to meet him in the jungle. Hate is a real problem. I got over it which leads me to this thread. I always believed I had some sort of invisable sign on my back saying "I am easy, abuse me"

Seems dating is a lost art for many of the folks out there. It was so hard in college and after to get a gay friend to do things that did not have some sort of hidden sexual goal. I got active in such as a gay community center, did find a "better" class of men. Started dating girls, that depressed me more, as in college word got out I was "harmless" useless in bed, etc. Lucky for me I
spent a while "dating" lesbians at work. We covered each other for social events, etc. Then I woke up and realized that I wasted a lot of years
due to my avoiding reality.

I view older men who "date" young women as I view most gay intergenerational stuff. It was from women, and gay women that I found any support. The transgender folks seemed to be a bit more honest about CSA but it still is not a message topic
in the American gay world.

One should not waste decades of life trying to avoid as I did. One day you wake up and realize that. Men should have a warning label printed on them, young men should know it is a jungle out there just as it is for teen girls. One day you grow up and you have lost that teen pretty boy looks. Just my thoughts, I always hated my looks and lean tall body. When I was 12-13 it was bad, and by 21 I was still a victim and into my 30's.

This just fogs my brain

RockyMt
 
***********Possible Triggers**********

This is my first post on any Discussion Board on this site. I feel compelled to respond to this topic to further my own understanding of this site and its unique personality. My primary interest in responding to this topic is to generate further discussion on this topic, particularly among the site leadership, since the originator of the thread is both a Moderator and a member of the Board of Directors and since others who are Board members have commented and since I know that Site Administrators and other Moderators are reading all that is written here. While its not usually my style to reveal my intentions too early, Ill be quite forthright here: Im looking to discover what type of experience, strength and hope is available to be shared with newcomers, assuming, of course, that Moderators, Board members, and Administrators [the leadership team of this site] are well advanced in their own personal recoveries and also that many of them are likely to be involved in professions that support their recovery efforts.

My personal experiences in the world have shown me that human beings are inherently good, however, they are also inherently flawed to varying degrees. The more narrowly one creates subsets of mankind, the more one tends to find certain specific character traits and the effects of those traits on the lives of the individuals. But simply examining a narrow subset of mankind, or even belonging to such a subset, does not give one the automatic right to be narrow in their thinking. This I learned the hard way: I graduated from a small-town high school in the southern part of the US the year that news of a gay cancer in NYC began to hit mainstream publications and the immediate reaction of society caused the tiny crack in my closet door to get slammed shut for almost a decade. I became, virtually overnight, one of those self-loathing homosexuals that extreme gay advocates love to bash. After almost twenty years of learning about myself, my community, my sexuality and, most importantly, the history of gay people throughout the last 4,000 years, I learned that my narrow thinking only punished myself and any others that I may have been skillful enough to indoctrinate. As a result, I feel that I lost almost all of the best part of my 20s to fear and misunderstanding, and have only now begun to gain the proper balance to enjoy life as I pass through my late 30s. I have also learned that I have an obligation to speak out against narrow views, especially when those narrow views are firmly held by powerful people and are loudly proclaimed to be the truth.

Now, to the topic:

The manner by which this extremely controversial issue, the gay communitys failure to adequately support anti-child sexual abuse efforts, was introduced and discussed left me with so many questions that I cannot begin to offer a reply to the topic without asking at least some of them:

1. What is your gay community? [The last time I was proud of the gay community was in the early 1980s when activists were educating all people on the truth about AIDS and using their opportunity at the podium to simultaneously attempt to dispel so many of the myths about gay people. Since then, I feel more like the emigrant author Bruce Bawer on the whole idea of grouping us together based on our sexual preference.]
2. Is this really an issue for the gay community to address, when we have so many other pressing concerns that are more likely to be successfully addressed in the various legislatures and the court of public opinion? [Did you miss the witch-hunts of the American 1980s, spawned by hysteria about the sexual abuse of children? Have you forgotten the McMartin case in California and the case in Edenton, NC, to name only two? The hysteria was driven, in part, by power-mad mid-level mental health professionals who, using extremely coercive techniques, got pre-school age children to recover memories of abuse that never occurred; then, these same professionals managed to become paid prosecution witnesses and even got multi-million dollar federal grants to further their efforts. Any attempt by gay people to discuss anything related to minors immediately creates the most sinister resurgence of the myths that label us as serial molesters and recruiters.]
3. What is your definition of a child or a juvenile or a teen as these terms are used throughout your post? [In my part of the US, one can get married at 12 (under very special circumstances), have consensual sex outside of marriage at 14, get a drivers permit at 15, a license at 16, smoke tobacco at 17, enlist in the military at 17, sign contracts at 18, and drink alcohol at 21. These arbitrary restrictions notwithstanding, a child can be any age, since they will always be the child of their parents, deceased or living! A nineteen-year-old is still, by definition, a teen but he is legally an adult in all parts of the US. The word juvenile denotes a legal description that varies by jurisdiction. An accurate, working definition of child is a mandatory prerequisite for any discussion of issues affecting children.]
4. What is your definition of sexual abuse as this term is used throughout your post? [Are we talking about the neighborhood kids playing doctor in someones basement during the dog days of summer or are we talking about the repeated beating and rape of a 6-year-old boy by his father? I have heard countless well-meaning people attempt to define sexual abuse, and they all fail miserably when asked if there are any gray areas that might be open to interpretation. Most all say, as you and other responding posters have, that any and all contact is automatically abuse. Every father, if hes able to be honest, knows exactly when his daughters were too big to be regularly cuddled in his lap; this realization contains an obvious sexual component does this mean that this dad abused his daughters because he thought of them, however briefly, as sexual beings? This hypersensitivity to any contact with a child continues to be pervasive in the US just a few months ago, while shopping with a neighbor whose ideology happens to be to the right of Dubya, a boy of about 7 came careening around the corner, running full out in the aisle with his head and eyes focused on the floor; to avoid a disastrous collision, I put my open hand on the top of his head and used just enough gentle pressure to steer him around me and not into any fixtures . . . after he slowed a bit, he turned back and grinned his thanks for the assistance, then resumed his play; my neighbor was shocked that I had touched someone elses child without their permission and she didnt let up on that rant until weeks later!!!]
5. What is your definition of an abuser or a perpetrator and why do you seem so ready to consign even those who merely appreciate youthful beauty to the category of abusers, as you indicated in your later post on your own topic? [Here in the US, one can be forced to register as a convicted sex offender for a variety of offenses the drunken fraternity boy who was charged and convicted of indecent exposure for getting caught peeing on the neighbor ladys azaleas is on the list in exactly the same way that the serial child rapist is on the list! Anyone who works with young people, and, who happens to be good at it, has established very close relationships with those they serve; therefore, those in the position to offer the greatest benefit to the youth are also those most highly suspected (God forbid that the person working with youth is openly gay!).]

The five items listed above request definitions; but even with those difficult definitions in hand, there remain even larger questions. My biggest question is, Are your stated positions, and the stated positions of other posters, the result of rigidly-held beliefs that facilitate your individual recoveries from abuse OR are your stated positions representative of your views on life in the real world? Im referring specifically to the total absence of any gray area in the discussion about intergenerational sexual expression that any and all contact between the [undefined] child and an older person is automatically [undefined] abuse. I know from personal experience that recovery programs suggest, and sometimes even require, that participants allow themselves to be beneficially indoctrinated into a recovery-specific belief system that tends to replace a harmful belief system present prior to recovery; however, I also know from personal experience, that such a narrow belief system has its proper place and is not often correctly used outside of the recovery environment. The presentation of narrow views as representative of an individuals world view is certainly permissible; however, when those views are propagated by the leadership of a recovery website, those views can be harmfully misleading and contraindicated for continued progress in recovery.

Gay people, myself included, have always impressed me as being gifted with an extra helping of all the personality and character traits that one may find desirable in any human being. Being born gay, though, does not immediately lend one to this understanding, since no gay kid is born into a gay community of any kind and it is often years later before the youth even begins to understand his sexuality, much less his own place in the world. For me, the simple denial of the existence of this gray area denies one the opportunity to exist and function healthily in reality. I recognized this gray area as early as 6 or 7 years old, only to lose it to a world that insisted on defining things in absolute black and white terms when I was a teenager. As I said earlier, almost 20 years had to pass before I allowed myself to acknowledge that most of the world thrived within this gray area and, if I wanted a healthy and happy life, I had better join it.
 
I wish to clearly state that all my "red flag" warnings are going off as to your authenticity. This is not a site for arid, "Ivory Tower" hair-splitting over the definition of terms; rather, it's an arena in which each of us gets down in the mud to wrestle with our personal demons, supported by other guys who've been there too. Perhaps you really are a male survivor seeking peer support, but if that's the case, you have made the worst possible first impression. Here's why :
I became, virtually overnight, one of those self-loathing homosexuals that extreme gay advocates love to bash.
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What does your caving in to fear have to do with the very real existence of self-loathing closet cases that *deserve* to be "bashed" ? Are you playing victim here ?
2. Is this really an issue for the gay community to address ...
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Dude, where do you think you are ? This is NOT a discussion board for gay politics, it's support group for SA survivors.
Any attempt by gay people to discuss anything related to minors ...
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So, we should just ignore attitudes within the gay community that foster the shame & silence of survivors, for fear of what some petty bureaucrats think ?
An accurate, working definition of child is a mandatory prerequisite for any discussion of issues affecting children.
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Bullshit. The definition of "child" will vary with each man here, but the common denominator is the damage done. Some 12 year old boys can handle ongoing sex with older boys/men without harm, while some 17 year old young men are profoundly damaged by one or a few abusive incidents. And this is where you start sounding like a self-justifying pedophile.
they all fail miserably when asked if there are any gray areas that might be open to interpretation.
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That's because you are trying to generalize the entire subject so you can then callously disect it. Yes, in *general* there are probably gray areas, but to one individual the boundaries violated are *quite* clear and behaviors that were/were not acceptable are starkly black or white.
5. What is your definition of an abuser or a perpetrator ...
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If you had been abused, you'd know. This quote is the one that makes me suspect you the most, as it especially smacks of self-justification.
Are your stated positions, and the stated positions of other posters, the result of rigidly-held beliefs that facilitate your individual recoveries from abuse OR are your stated positions representative of your views on life in the real world?
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WTF *difference* does it make, dude ? We are *not* college freshmen riddled with existential angst about our philosophy of life, we are VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME WHO HAVE SUFFERED PROFOUND EMOTIONAL DAMAGE AS A RESULT ! Do you GET that ?!?!?!
I know from personal experience that recovery programs suggest, and sometimes even require, that participants allow themselves to be beneficially indoctrinated into a recovery-specific belief system that tends to replace a harmful belief system present prior to recovery;
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You are confusing recovery from addictive behavior in a 12 Step program with recovery from sexual abuse. The 12 Step programs (one of which I proudly belong to) do indeed use techniques that could be interpreted as "indoctrination"; however, I think recovery from SA is much less clearly defined. I say this because most of us suffer from PTSD but the *specific* traumas vary widely and the methods of healing those traumas vary even more widely.

I have notified the board Moderators of my suspicions about you, and shall let them deal with you hereafter.
 
ShyBear I am really sorry that my post bothered you so badly.

I wrote last night while I was angry and posted my reply to the topic without rereading it. The whole thread pushed some of my buttons, as my reply did push yours. Im sorry!

I was abused by a family member from as early as I can remember. The abuse ended when I was 15 years old, when my parents successfully used the false allegation that I was the abuser to have me removed from my home. Not only did my abuser go unpunished, but I lost my home and gained the label of an abuser for myself.

ShyBear, you have made a valid point that I may be confusing 12-Step recovery with other recoveries, but thats been where I have done most of my recovery work to date.

I am trying to find out if this can be a safe place for me and feel that my questions deserve answers, if anyone can see past my angry tone of voice in my first post.
 
What is your definition of sexual abuse as this term is used throughout your post? [Are we talking about the neighborhood kids playing doctor in someones basement during the dog days of summer or are we talking about the repeated beating and rape of a 6-year-old boy by his father? I have heard countless well-meaning people attempt to define sexual abuse, and they all fail miserably when asked if there are any gray areas that might be open to interpretation.
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Hello:

I am glad that you posted again to clarify things.

Let me confess something. Your earlier posting also triggered some very strong emotions in me. In fact, I had a full-scale panic attack! (A symptom of my post-traumatic stress disorder, from early childhood abuse and more recent traumas as an adult.)

What defines sexual abuse? If you go to the home page of this site, you will find a link to a very good definition of sexual abuse. It includes a broader range of experiences than you might find defined by law. And that is probably where the confusion comes in.

Understandably, someone falsely accused of childhood abuse would quibble over its precise mean. But many of us are just now coming to terms with childhood abuse that happened decades ago. Long after the statute of limitations expired. Or in my case, after the abuser has died. In short, most of us adults here are not concerned with prosecuting someone. So legal finer points don't matter. What matters is healing. And healing takes place when we are ready to admit that we were abused. And for our purposes, I think the definition provided by this site says it all!

Let me explain. Not from an academic viewpoint. But my own very personal, very painful experience. Throughout my childhood, I and my younger brother were terrorized by an older brother. This older brother was about 3 years older than me. And no one knew it at the time, but he was mentally ill. Eventually in his late teens he would be hospitalized with paranoid schizophrenia. After being in and out of hospitals for many years, he died of heart failure a few years back.

Unfortunately, long before his illness was recognized, this older brother made my life hell. Whenever the mood struck him, I was punched, slapped, kicked, verbally abused, and threatened. And the same thing happened to my younger brother (a year younger than me). This kind of treatment went on for years. And he threatened us with all sorts of things if we told our parents. So we didn't tell.

I really don't know all that he did to my brother. He liked to chase us down one by one and do things to us in secret. My entire childhood was one long, twisted game of hide and seek.

It's a long story but recently some health problems forced me to confide in a doctor about the panic attacks I was having for years. As a result of this, I was diagnosed with PTSD, referred to therapy, prescribed medicine, and I began talking about some very traumatic events in my life. I'll spare you the details. Let me just say that some of the trauma had to do with the sexual abuse I experienced as a child by my older brother.

For years, I told myself that it was all harmless child's play. That me and my older brother were merely engaging in "playing doctor." Perhaps even the law (then or now) might see it the same way. But then I realized. Never in a million years would I willingly do the things that he made me do. If I wanted to play doctor with anyone, it would have been my younger brother. My younger brother and me were more like twins. But we never had any desire to experiment that way.

So this is why your comment triggered a lot of emotion in me. Whether my older brother could have "legally" been charged with child sexual abuse doesn't matter to me. I know I was sexually abused by him. I don't remember all the details. There are some places where my memories kind of fade out. But I know enough to call it by its name: childhood sexual abuse.

Forgive me. I am really upset because all this is very new to me. The emotions are very raw and painful. But I hope it helps to understand that this site is dedicated to healing. Occasionally some of us don't mind long intellectual discussions. And this thread kind of went that way. But most of the time...we're dealing with a lot of pain, one buddy to another.

Take care,

Jasper
 
Hello aleksander, I read both your messages, I liked your second message much better than the first, I think it was more honest. In your second message you wrote.
I am trying to find out if this can be a safe place for me
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I am not sure why you are so worried about this. But to put it bluntly there is no place that will be absolutely safe, but I have been on this site since Nov of last year and I think it is safe.

About your first message, it did not seem to be a angry message, so much as a antagonistic message. Almost as if you were trying to get us to reject you, before we had time to get to know you. Something to think about, if you got us to reject you, you would not have to go through the pain of telling your story to us. Could you be trying to sabotage you own self-help?
About gray areas, I think we all know of gray areas. If you read some of Wifey1's messages about her husband I am sure you will think his case is a gray area. If you read some of my old messages you may think that they fall in a gray area, or you may think as I do that I went over the line at least once. This message is one that I feel falls into a gray area. https://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004662#000001 This is the message about where I think I went over the line. https://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004671#000001

Note, I consider myself straight, one of the reason I visit this forum, and read the messages here is to try to over come my fear of gay males. I recently found out that one of my old friends from high school is gay. Three years ago I found out that he was a sex offender, his crime was INDECENCY WITH A CHILD (3 COUNTS) & AGGRAVATED SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A CHILD, the child was 13 years old when this happened, my friend got 10 YRS ADJUDICATION PROBATION. In January the 10 years will be up and maybe he will show up here. Right now I don't know enough about what happened to determine if it would count as a gray area. He has been seeing a psychiatrist through the VA, I do know that he now thinks that he was wrong to do it. You can read more about it here. https://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004645
 
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