gay culture

gay culture
M

markgreyblue

Registrant
i remember when i first came out and still in a sense am getting solid enough for a ltr -

so much of the extremes of gay culture is what you see commercialized -

i know when i first came out i looked at these serious bdsm leather dudes and then the glamour boys

and then the muscle men - and though - i don't really fit into a 'scene' i kind of just want a boyfriend and live my life -

it's kind of funny but - such is life - i guess -

i guess if you were to say what my scene is - it's really just homebody who also likes to travel sometimes and drink sometimes - relaxed - but i like to wear nice clothes and eat out - like art too - and outdoors - shopping - collecting - i -don't particularly like to view myself as 'above' average - it makes me feel aloof - but i am special to who i am to my life -
my pov -

any ideas?

MGB

anyway - talk to you later -
 
Hi MGB,

A very good topic for me.

My sense of what it means to be a gay man has changed so radically since I began my recovery--first from alcoholism, then from the returning memories of the sexual abuse.

I first 'came out' when I was 21 years old, a student at the Sorbonne in Paris.

Up until then I dated girls, while having a secret sexual relationship with the man who sexually abused me as a teenager.

I kept my relationship in Paris a secret too. It made it seem like something bad...hidden, secret. I knew some other gay students in Paris, but pretended still to be straight.

I had also started to drink a lot. When I came back to the US to finish my BA, I went to my first gay bar; got really drunk and went home with a stranger; woke up the next morning not knowing where I was.

That set the basic pattern and for many years, I associated gayness or gay culture with drinking to excess, drug use, 'partying', keeping it a shameful secret and having lots of meaningless/anonymous often degrading, humiliating sex.

Needless to say, for a man like me who always aspired to a spiritual life, having this extremely negative view of being gay and therefore a negative view of myself as a gay man, was very damaging to my spirit.

Little did I know that I was drinking, drugging and acting out to cover up the shame of the sexual abuse. I would not find that out for almost 25 more years.

During that time, on the outside I would be more or less intellectually OK with being homosexual.

But I continued to keep it compartamentalized in my life; and continued to treat it and myself in that context as a subject for shame, guilt and denial.

During the last few years I have begun to learn that there are many more, valuable aspects to being gay and to gay culture.

A significant point occurred for me in a gay men's group therapy session. One of the participants asked me, after talking about running into other group members at a film festival,

"Danny, you seem to think of being gay as dirty, smelly, foul and vulgar like a cheap gay bar, but have you noticed that whenever the gay men in this group meet each other on the outside, it is either at Church, a Charity Affair or doing some Volunteer Service work, or at some Cultural event?".

It really hit me then how much of my perception of being gay was warped by the effects of the sexual abuse.

Soon after that I quit associating with the religious community I belonged to which condemns me for being gay.

Funny thing, when I stopped hanging around people who condemn homosexuality, I started feeling much more positive about being gay. :D

It's especially true for me here at MaleSurvivor, where I get to experience gay men sharing their love, experience, strength, fear, hope and joy in a context that has nothing to do with drugs or sex.

Thanks for the great topic. Today being gay and identifying with some sort of gay culture is a very positive thing for me.

Regards,
 
I have had a love-hate relationship with 'gay culture' for as long as I can remember, certainly at least since I came out when I was 21.

It may have something to do with the fact that I don't think I fit in, although "The Wizard of Oz" is on TV tonight so I'll be watching that again for the umpteenth time ;)

As for my not fitting in, that probably has a lot to do with s.a. It's difficult enough to be gay but to have been abused by men, sexually and otherwise, is a real mind-f@#k.

My all-or-nothing thinking, which I think stemmed from the s.a., led me to drink, drug and sleep around and I have paid a high price for that.

I find myself relating less and less to "the gay community", at least the one we see in the media. Gone are the days when I will be anyone's "whipping boy" (because I could never get the idea that it was 'play'); I am skinny as a rake so the gym guys don't give me a second look; one of my best friends is a str8 guy.

All in all I think I've come to the conclusion that I will never get hitched - although I hesitate to say 'never'! It certainly is not going to happen as long as I am so content with my own company - but that, too, I think goes back to the s.a. and an instinct to be a bit of a loner.

Sometimes I think I am just trying to convince myself that I prefer to be alone.

Kenn
 
wow - these posts are really valuable to me -
i feel so much like you are speaking aspects of my life experience as well -
i do think i may never get into an ltr -
i also at times think that i am just begining to discover the gay life i can and want to
lead
-with my new neighbors and the people
we meet through the things we do outside
of going to bars and clubs -
which are fine if you want a certain something - almost like a mcdonalds -
but danny i really agree with you - likewise with you too kenn - that somehow - our culture is such a push pull mystery to us - but i think instead of fitting in - we will find the place for us that will be about what makes us happy - and keeps us that way - somewhere in the gay cosmos -
as you might guess i am just realizing that i think i have a bit of a mystical side to me - tempered by philoshopy -

thanks for writing such great posts -

mark
 
I am new to gay life, my coming out is still in process so my knowledge and experience with the gay culture is really modest but I learned something very quickly.

Mark you said that only thing that you want is to have boyfriend and live your life. I found that is very hard to find boyfriend and have nice and lasting relationship especially because of the promiscuity that is extremely common in gay culture.

Most of the relationships are short and full of cheating. It is normal to have as many as possible partners and to have at least from time to time one night stand (when boyfriend is somewhere else).

Can anyone tell me why is this happening so often?
There is almost no place for love and emotions with such life style.

What is the point in all of this?

I am now with the man who is part of this culture. His experience from the scenes of NY, London, Brussels and Prague is something very strange for me and now I became part of it.
All this is frightening; I can imagine myself becoming a sex robot.

Ivo
 
Hi Ivo,

You bring up some very good points.

I am reminded of the story of the three blind men who were asked to describe an elephant.

One was touching the trunk, another the foot and the third grabbed the elephant's tail.

As you can imagine, each came up with a different impression of the creature in question.

That is a good metaphor for my experience in being 'gay'.

When I first began to have adult sexual experiences with men, it was mainly in bars.
I was usually intoxicated and was mainly interested in sex and had sex with men who went to bars and engaged in anonymous sex!

Guess what? My impression of gay life was that it was all about sleazy bars, drunkenness and promiscuity.

Of course I now see that much of my behavior, like the drinking and shame filled anonymous sex, was motivated by my need to cope with the effects of sexual abuse, of which I was still in denial. That was the best I could do at the time.

I would remain in denial, drunk, promiscuous and feeling like being gay was sleazy and immoral for almost 30 more years!!

That's a long time to be holding onto the tail of an elephant!!!! :D

Your assessment of gay life so far is probably pretty accurate based on your experience. Your impressions, too, are colored by the sexual abuse you endured, I would imagine.

However, I would urge you or anyone for that matter, not to hold onto the trunk, the tail or the foot for the next 20 years.

Explore the entire gamut of gay experience. See how many gay fathers are taking care of children who were abandoned. How many gay men are actively involved in churches and other groups promoting spiritual awareness.

In my own experience I see so many gay men who are currently caring for their elderly, ill parents. In some cases where the parent has never been willing or able to accept their children's homosexuality, yet the gay guy and partner shoulder the responsibility for their care.

I could go on with many more examples, but I'm sure you get the idea. The bar life, the casual sex and the attendant dehumanization is what many of us experience at first.

But there is a great deal more than that. A huge diversity of experience exists, much as there is in the so-called straight world.

Which brings me to the second realization I had regarding my gay experience. When I began to berate the 'gay community' for their superficiality, promiscuity, substance abuse etc. etc., I was very quickly reminded by my friends, gay and straight, that homosexuals have no monopoly on such things.

These are human problems and affect us all, gay or straight. Without the sanction of legal recognition and in spite of vicious oppression many gay men and women lead very moral, faithful, duty filled, loving, compassionate lives.

I personally think that is what is so remarkable about being gay.

Being freed in some respects from traditional societal institutions such as marriage, we are free to choose our behavior. We are shown many examples of promiscuity as being typically gay.

But those are only stereotypes; like saying blondes are dumb or Texans have red necks ;) .

Look beyond these and embrace the entire potential of human experience. You are free to choose your own.

By seeking recovery from the effects of sexual abuse, you are unlocking the chains that bind us all to those shameful, unfair false images of what it means to be a gay man.

Thanks for raising such a valuable point.

You have truly stimulated my thinking in a very positive way. And today I needed that.

I appreciate all of you very much. I'm glad you are helping me to learn not to hate myself any more.

Warm regards,
 
I found when I came out that the promiscuity was something I could not relate to, or do partly because of the sa, I tried to fit in but never felt that I did. There is no one-way to be gay and its completely individual, there is no gay lifestyle when it comes to relationships. Gay sex was illegal and the scene was very small in Dublin when I came out. Most of us emigrated as quickly as we could. We came out of a society that treated us with hatred and it was hard to love ourselves, this makes loving relationships even more difficult. Add the sa to that and I didnt think that I would ever find someone to share my life with.

I was never promiscuous, but I think men, straight or gay are less faithful in general than women. I have been with my partner for eight years; we are faithful to each other and live happily together. We rarely go to clubs or pubs we do some political stuff, have some gay and lesbian friends otherwise we live like the rest of the population.

Most of the gay scene is for single people and can seem to be about nothing but image and sex. Most couples that I know dont go on the scene. Loving fulfilling relationships are really possible even for someone as messed up about sex as I.

Ivo you dont have to become a sex robot there are many men who feel exactly as you do and you dont have to buy into the promiscuity. Most of us miss out on the normal teenage dating and the scene can have us believe that it is normal to have sex with many different partners; there is nothing wrong in doing that if thats what individuals want but it is not for everyone. We can all live the gay lifestyle that suits us.

Rustam.
 
Dear all,
thank you on sharing your wisdom and experience that I need so much.

I do not have anything against different approaches that people have toward life and I know that I have freedom to choose what I want to do.
The thing is that my sexual development was unusual; I spent years to put it on some kind of normal track and still is very easy for me to go back in chaos.
From the beginning of SA I was treated like object without emotions in sex, I couldn't change it at that time and after awhile I started to accept it, I was very young and didn't know how to handle it.

I know that if I start to avoid emotions that I would be sex consumer on self-destructive level.
I also do not know how to exact deal with the emotions on easy way but they are some kind of control over my sexuality, so I have simple rule, no emotions no sex.

All other ways would destroy my efforts and put me in old chaos.

Now when I am fresh on the "scene" many men are starting to give me signals that they are interested in me. Some of them are not single; they choose to live like that. I can not blame them for my vulnerability and sensitivity with my sexuality.

I hope that I waited enough time to be strong and willing to do the best things for myself and to keep pushing changes for the better.

Beside all this I hope that I would not have to worry that man that I love very much would try to hurt me on cheap way.

Ivo
 
Thanks, guys, for the stories and comments.

I wonder if there would be something we could call gay culture if we were not discriminated against as a group. After all, what do we truly share beyond that?

Imagine a world in which sexual behavior is simply incidental. Imagine a world in which SA does not occur.

I have stood outside of any group identity for 50 years now. This has, for the most part, not been out of choice.

To begin with, my lack of self-confidence and the depression and other consequences of early abuse kept me on the outside. I accessed disassociation a lot.

Then, after sexual awareness began, it was clear that, because of the abuse, I was and would be unable to perform sexu'al acts. That, with my alcoholism, pretty much kept me on the outside.

I have missed a lot that I think I might have enjoyed. But, on the other hand, I have a wonderful relationship with a guy that I love (for 20 years!). He had a son before we got together. His son is now married and we have a grandson.

Therapy and medication have helped me 'deal' pretty effectively for the first time in my life.

I am not part of "gay culture," as it turns out but I have observed it from the outside, in.
 
Hey guys,

What a good discussion this is for me.

My experiences in gay life or 'culture', like most of my other experiences are colored to some extent my the effects of my sexual abuse.

I was victimized by an older man who was a trusted leader of my religious community. He was not gay, nor had any connection to gay 'culture'.

As a very young and confused teenager, it seemed to me that I had no choice in what happened. Or that my choices were extremely limited, either live on the streets or have sex with this man.

And so in some respects, it seemed to me that the sexual abuse happened to me because I did not have many choices.

So how does that effect me today as a gay male survivor of sexual abuse?

Seems like it's mighty easy to let gay 'culture', the gay 'lifestyle', the supposed excessive promiscuity, bar life, drug use, dirty, nasty sexual deviancy that one commonly hears associated with gay males, happen to me too.

But do I really have to let things happen to me today?

I say, no, I don't. But unless I begin to shed those old ideas and attitudes that I developed as a victim, then life will just happen to me.

I will continue to be a victim. And I will be a victim of that 'terrible gay culture', out there whatever it is.

Well, guess what, I can choose to create my own idea of gay culture, or life, or sex, or work or whatever.

This idea of having choice, being a part of rather than a victim of culture, the gay world or whatever is an extremely powerful one to me.

Example, I chat with lots of guys on-line--mainly from other countries as I write French and Spanish.

I make it a point to treat these guys and other gay men I meet with respect and dignity. To inquire about their frame of mind and hopes and dreams instead of just their dick size.

That's my way of contributing humanity and some compassion to what is commonly decried as the meat market mentality of gay social interaction.

I also challenge other gay men on beliefs that are self limiting or self denigrating. I speak my opinion out loud about bare backing and other unsafe sex practices being advertised.

I'm not a crusader, by any means. But I'm also determined not to be a victim either.

So I guess, I'd like to hear more about ideas of gay culture; ways that we can feel more a part of rather than apart from.

Especially ways that we can ensure that while life happens all around us; it is not happening to us. Particularly in the area of gay life.

Can you or I make a difference? Do we want to try?

What do you think?

Regards,
 
I decided that I would integrate myself into gay social group an its culture because I feel that it is natural for me to be part of it; at the same time I also decided that I won't give up knowledge that I posses after such heavy lesson such is SA.
On some strange way I am aware that I am bringing different quality to gay people that didn't have such urge to think so much about inner self, other people and life in general.

I never thought about myself and other people in the terms of the dick size.
But these terms are very common among gay people.

There are also some other funny stereotypes, I am trying to skip them and not laugh too much when I hear them.

Ivo
 
my god Ivo - it's like you're telling my story too -and like wise i am starting to join a social group as well - and when - strangely i tell people what my interests are --- like dance socials - they all try to make a discouragement- nastily -
thanks for your post - it's inspiring me to be liberated - seems like i fell into a crowd that was abusive - in terms of the discouraging people - but i am realizing it and that is
the positive - and postive trend - getting away from that here -

xo
Mark
 
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