Forgiveness- The possible last step?

Forgiveness- The possible last step?
Ste,

I guess I kind of skewed my view point here. I have forgiven myself and I loke myself now, dont love myself yet but I am working on that.

My point of this thread was to get the real input of others and thier feeling towards forgiveness as I am on the fence about my ablity to forgive those who have harmed the child I once was.
 
Pete,

I suppose one question that comes up is this one: Why are you interested in forgiving those who harmed you?

Is it something you feel you need to do in principle? Or is there something you feel you would gain from this? I can imagine all sorts of reasons why a survivor would consider it important to be able to forgive his abuser(s), even if this is something I don't hold as a priority for myself.

But do YOU have reasons why an ability to forgive is important? I suppose I ask because unless doing this will somehow contribute to your recovery, why devote emotional energy to it?

You refer to not being able to love yourself yet. In terms of how you spend your time and where you devote your energies, surely you are far more deserving of that than the abusers are of forgiveness. I don't think it would be selfish for you to place yourself as a top priority here. That is, after all, what recovery is all about.

Much love,
Larry
 
I do not come here very often any more. But this particular post caught my attention.

Forgiveness is a very tough subject as you can see from all of the above posts.

I will give you my thoughts on this.

I was abused at 16, 17 and did not seek theerapy until I was 56. I am 65 now. If you care to read my story it is in that section.

I have completely forgiven myself for my prostitution, acting out, drug addiction and alcohol abuse.

I also realize that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was there for the taking and take they did. It was not my fault ever. I have forgiven myself for thinking otherwise.

Now to forgiveness to others. If I forgive it is only for one reason. I would do it for myself and nobody else because I can. It is definitely not for the benefit of those sick assholes. It would set me free.

I forgave my father before he died for bding physically abusive to me and I did it for myself. I was not seeking an apology because I think I would doubt the sincerity of one. I guess that is it.
 
I wil answer this post the way that I always do, when this question arises.

Trevor - you were bang on the nail, when you said, "What about forgiving yourself"?

That is exactly what is important!

Forgive yourself - that is very difficult to do! Why should you even waste energy considering forgiving some creature that only used you, for their own sexual gratification. They never cared about You/I...just themselves!

Why the hell should we care about forgiving them? I hope that of all the people on this planet they suffer the slowest, most painful deaths that anyone could imagine! They deny children childhood, the most precious thing that anyone could ever have.

Sorry to all of those of you that are religious, but if there is a god, why does he/she allow such things to happen??? *Please don't answer, I'm being rhetorical!

I do have difficulty forgiving myself! I do have difficulty forgiving the judiciary who settled for a suspended sentence when they could have given the perverted ******* a much stronger message.

I have difficulty forgiving the politically correct ******** that make excuses for paedophiles, that will eventually lead to future generations of abused children requiring a web site like this one!

Forgive...no never as long as I have skin on my body! Never as long as anyone knows that I once existed on this planet! Never even after that!

How does forgiving someone else make you feel better? Give me a decent bottle of wine! Give me a decent conversation with someone that cares about me! Give me a bright sunny day where I can hear children playing and laughing outside! Give me a cold freezing day where there is snow on the ground, and people give each other warm drinks, and push each other downhill on sledges. Give me a night in the forest where I can hear the wind howling through the dried out autumn leaves. Give me 3 days at an outdoor rock festival. Let me hear bird song at any time of the day. Let me hear the gentle hum of a car engine in the distance. Let me see an acorn bursting into bud in the springtime. Let me see a fully grown oak tree. Let me see a river in flood. Let me see a dragonfly in all it's majesty hovering over a lake in the summertime. Let me see frogspawn in a pond in springtime. Let me see the mutlitude of autumn colours in a forest in autumn! Let me see life. Let me see the first snowdrop in spring. Give me the company of the people that I love! That will make me happy!

**** the paedophiles!

Part 2:

IN COURT:
1st day of trial (January 2006 - grooming/abuse took place 1969, September, wk 4 onwards):

James Fowler is in court (I am in the Witness Protection house about 100 yards away). I arrived with 3 friends that wrote supportive statements for me. We arrived around 09:30, because I didn't want to be late...didn't know how the courts worked. Witness/complainant Number 2 arrived with his friends. He only made a statement after reading of my initial complaint in the local free paper. I recognise him as someone I used to babysit (childmind) when I was a kid. He doesn't recognise me, and I don't tell him who I am, other than that I was the first complainant. It hurts to think that a kid I looked after got abused by the same pervert several years later.

In the witness house, it just drags on and on, nothing seems to be happening, and no one tells us anything. I'm ready to go into the witness box, I've been building up to this point since October 2004, when I made my statement. It's tormented me for a long time before that (since 1969).

Been sat there for around 5 hours, and a rumour comes across, that the perv has pleaded guilty. I don't believe the rumour. I feel so much worse than I have for a long time (and that's really bad, like someone is taking the piss again).

Rumour comes across, that the judge is going to allow a 3rd witness statement to be read in court (turns out to be a friend from childhood - we used to ride around on our bikes together...I only find out who he is at the end of the day in court).

The Police come across into the witness protection room along with the CPs (I think)...they tell me (and the others) that the perv has pleaded guilty! I just break down, I never expected this...not in a million years! My friends try to comfort me, but they don't realise..it's such a major release.. a total vindication of all the hurt I have ever felt! They cannot understand what this means to me...no one can! We are told that we will be informed of when the actual sentence will be applied (next appearance in court). I am on an absolute high for the first time in many years!

A letter comes through. We go to court. It's still Crown Court (didn't mention that before). We know that the perv is going to jail...that's what the judge told him to expect...."Be prepared for a custodial sentence".

Hear a rumour that he wants to withdraw his guilty plea. I think that someone is trying to wind me up again. The feeling of elation is totally gone! The court procedures have over-ran all week. This is friday, sentencing day. Several case summaries are heard (don't get me started on mitigating circumstances). The day draws on again! It's absolutely terrible sitting there for a full day in court not knowing what the hell the outcome is going to be!

It gets to around 17:15, and I'm thinking that we are ging to get no further. The judge calls the Barristers in for all the outstanding cases. He asks for some brief details! The judge says he will hang on just a little bit longer. My head is ******* fried! I hear them call..."James Fowler".

To cut it short (this is a long post). The plea stood, there were further appearances in court, and the ******* was sentenced 17th March this year.

The sentence was rubbish, as was the whole judicial process.

Question? Why would I ever want to forgive someone that groomed, abused me? That groomed, abused others before me? That groomed abused others after me?

Why would I want to do that? What possible benefit would I receive from that?

Bollocks... I prefer to extend my energy towards people that deserve that energy. You can forgive in your own name. You can forgive in the name of your god.

I will not forgive anyone but myself, and others that cast guilt upon themselves, even though they have no real guilt to hold!

That perverted ******* walked out of court with these words provided by his defence barrister: "He's an elderly gentleman, answering for indiscretions from years ago". Words that went unchallenged by either the prosecution barrister, or, the trial judge!

Forgive him? How could anyone here ever ask me to do that?

Please don't.

I am still waiting to confront the ******* when he is shopping locally! I intend to tell him that he is not "An elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions from years ago". He appears to be avoiding me, before the case went to court, he was always there at certain times of the day!

I intend to tell him (regardless of the size of the audience - won't do it if kids are present) that he is one sick abusive ****, that grooms and abuses young boys, not an elderly gentleman, etc...etc.

Might get me into trouble, but it would look good in the press if I got worse treatment than him from the judiciary. I'm prepared to take that risk!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
And now I am going to be very blunt!

If you are easily triggered, do not read my next comment!


I know that the pervert that groomed and abused me way back in 1969 is in his housing association home tonight (probably no more than half a mile away from me). He is probably asleep, whilst I am sitting here typing. He is now 69 years old. I have just turned 49 years old. I know that if I walked up to his door in the morning, completely naked and offered myself to him, he would not be interested.

However if he get's papers delivered by a young pubescent, or pre-pubescent boy, or if some young boy delivers his milk. He would be standing there fantasising about what he could do to them (notice I don't say 'with them'). If he thought for one minute that he could invite them in, and eventually have his way with them, and that no one would find out...HE WOULD DO IT! I just hope that he doesn't (I really hope that he doesn't).

Wake up everybody!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Rik,

I guess we are all different in so many ways, including our response to this issue of forgiveness. I happen to agree with you 100%, but that's not why I'm responding.

Your post shows so clearly why for some guys forgiveness is just NEVER going to happen, and shouldn't happen. In your case the perp has walked free, having been told that he committed "indiscretions" a "long time ago". He's still in the neighborhood, and I think you're right, if he thought he could get away with something with boys now, he would do it.

How exactly are you to forgive this creep? Look at the emotional energy it devours just for you to talk about him.

I suppose my question would just be this. You speak of confronting Fowler when you see him in the neighborhood, and to be honest, if I were in your place I would be very tempted to do exactly the same thing. But will doing this just make you angrier? Or will it help you in some way? Will it somehow make you feel better about your efforts in court, or will it make you feel frustrated?

At the end of the day, will this help your recovery or obstruct it?

Much love,
Larry
 
Ok, how about the one thing we are not even thinking about "the silence".
When I was a boy, that is what really got to me, that I was a wimp for keeping silent!

Over and over, day and night, I tortured my mind for keeping silent, it was like some bomb that was about to go off.

I was only a kid then, but I had responsibility to stop him, and I didnt do anything.
That took some forgiveness, forgiving me, not him, not them, "ME".

It came to a point were I just had to let go of most of what I was thinking, and that is how I chose to throw off the bonds,

ste
 
Larry - thanks for your concern.

Confronting him will help me more than you can imagine!

It will be the first time I will have had the personal opportunity to tell him exactly what he is! I believe that many people here would like that opportunity to do the same, if only they could!

I tried to do everything right, through legal channels, did everything by the book! If the Judge, or Prosecution had challenged the words 'elderly gentleman / indiscretions', I know that I would have been fine. I would have achieved much more closure on the subject than I currently do! I can't describe the feeling of EUPHORIA I started to feel in January when he pleaded guilty in court! I also can't describe the feeling of desolation I felt at the next court appearance when he tried to withdraw the guilty plea!

The last conversation I ever had with the perv, was when I was 12 years old, and he was 32. I want to tell him that he is not an elderly gentleman, answering for indiscretions from long ago! I want to tell him to his face, that he is a multiple grooming, sexually abusing paedophile. A paedophile that in October 2004 was still purchasing the tools of his trade. I want him to know exactly, what I as a 49 year old man thinks of his actions against me when I was 12 years old. The judiciary couldn't do that for me, so I must do it for myself. He needs to know that I have absolutely no fear of him now! That I only think of him with total disgust!

I am a man now! He needs to know that all boys eventually grow up, they get bigger...and just maybe they might want to do bad things to him! It's giving back the fear to where it belongs.

He remembers me as a compliant child - I want to erase that memory from his mind! I don't intend any violence to be involved whatsoever - I know that the right words can have so much more impact!

I am not walking around in a permanent rage if that is what people are concerned about! I am probably saner now than I have been for many years! I have seen the light, and he needs to see it too!

He is not a major part of my life now, but I need to do this one last thing, so I know that I am the man I think I am! If I confront him directly, my biggest demon! What can I ever be afraid of again! Slaying demons allows a person to live the life they should!

My earlier comments about what I enjoy in life are the important things - once I have stamped on this pervert for the last time, I can concentrate on those things! Little things like life and living it to the full!

Best wishes ...Rik (and thanks again for your concern).
 
Rik,

I can see exactly what you mean, and believe me, when you confront this guy in the betting shop, the corner shop, wherever, you will be speaking for me too! Good for you.

There is that old saying about speaking truth to power. Perhaps that's what you will be doing. As you say, you will be rejecting his power and letting him know what hold he has over you now - nothing.

If I had the opportunity that you do now, I would denounce him on one occasion, then ignore him on another, then denounce him, etc. Let him wonder when you will lower the boom on him and when you will not.

I'm glad you got my point and didn't think I was preaching to you. I almost didn't post my response because of that! It's just that anger takes a lot of energy.

But so does justice, doesn't it? This guy is a convicted pedophile whose name is on the sex offenders' register. That's public information. So perhaps the public should know.

Much love,
Larry
 
I'm going to weigh in here (as I have a time or two in the past) on this subject with my own opinion of what is required for forgiveness to even be possible.

Please understand that this is my definition only, and not something I think the rest of y'all should subscribe to.

To me, in order for there to be forgiveness on my part, there needs to be sorrow expressed and forgiveness sought on the part of the one that offended me. That has never happened.

Therefore I believe I am left with the ability to let it go, to not obsess about it, etc., bit I do not have the option to forgive.

I have the ability to forgive myself, or to put it in better terms, to understand that I am not and was not at fault, and let Little John off the hook for what happened to him. That I can do, but until there is forgiveness sought by those that wronged me, I cannot forgive.

Now, what would happen if taxi guy knocked on my door 5 minutes from now and asked me to forgive him? I'd probably sock him in the nose, kick him in the balls before sending him reeling into the street. If he had the guts to come back following that, I could probably be persuaded to at least listen to him, and go from there.

I don't know, because I haven't been faced with that decision. Immature? Perhaps, but it's the way I feel about it at the moment.

I think perhaps Rik is a bit further down the path than I am in that he feels words speak louder than violence. I know he is right in that regard. I'm not a violent man, but dammit, taxi guy deserves a little back after all the boys whose lives he destroyed.

John
 
Forgiveness is a big topic. I read and worked through a book called "Forgiving the Unforgivable." It was helpful, but I still haven't felt that natural 'click' or release yet. I think it's a self-protective thing.
 
All this gets me to thinking about something: What exactly IS forgiveness? That is, what exactly is "happening" when I forgive someone.

If I forgive someone, it seems to me I am doing or saying a number of things all at once:
  • 1. I am telling the other person I consider him to be at fault for something.
  • 2. I am saying this violation has hurt me, it "matters" in some way.
  • 3. I am saying that I see some reason for me to conclude that I should put this episode behind me (to take John's example, the other person is genuinely sorry). It will not have further input into my relations with the other person.
  • 4. In all this I am also somehow admitting my own imperfection. I will forgive because sometimes I need forgiveness too.
Did I miss anything?

Looking at forgiveness this way, in light of what it actually is, I have to say I find it even more difficult to imagine how I would ever forgive what predators do to innocent kids.

Again, that's just my take on the situation. I know others will see it differently.

Much love,
Larry
 
Forgiveness is accepting the fact that your perp is human. Simple as that. To do otherwise is selfish and will lead to hate. Hate leads to self-destruction. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but this is what I believe to be the truth.

Let me ask these questions; if you ever got the opportunity to take revenge on your perp and you did something to harm him, what would you become? Do you think the police would be justified for arresting you for assault (which they would surely do) and a judge for having you sentenced? Do you think that taking revenge would in any way change what was done to you?

I get frustrated with this mentality that perps "owe" us something. They don't owe us anything. They chose an evil path, and we were their victims, but that's where it ends. All matters of justice are for the courts to determine. Our perps' salvation is a matter between them and God. There may be some reparation due to us for damages, but again, that is a matter for the courts. There is simply no debt that must be discharged between our perps and ourselves.

Now, for those of you who are still with me and not furiously writing me a nasty email or reply to this post, here is the truth of the matter. Perps are human beings, and human beings are prone to failure and making mistakes. Some fail in terrible ways and do great evil, such as raping children.

I know how deeply it hurts to be betrayed, believe me, I know. I was raped by a man who held me as a newborn. But what you simply have to accept, before you will truly heal, is that your perp was innocent once, and he has the potential to be rehabilitated back to normal life. The administrators of this site will tell you many stories of perps who have been rehabilitated. By not forgiving them, we are refusing to accept that our perps can be redeemed. Now I'm not saying that it is our responsibility to heal our perps; what I'm saying is that our forgiveness has nothing to do with our perps. Forgiveness is accepting that they are human, just like everyone else. It is accepting that people can fail, and do evil things, and it is also accepting that they can be brought back to good.

I have forgiven my perp. This does not mean that I will stop working with the police to have him brought to justice, nor does it mean that I will ever go out for beers with him. What it does mean is that I accept that he is human. He will answer for his crimes, but that is a matter between him and the Courts. He may decide that he has done horrible things and he needs help, and he can go hire a therapist for that. By forgiving him, I am healing myself from the only true damage that my perp did to me; that is I am finally understanding and accepting what it means to be human.

Please take care and understand that this post was written out of love, and that I am not trying to hurt any of you. I just wanted to share my healing experience with you, in the hopes that some of you might be able to find something in it that helps with your own healing.

Love

Nobby
 
when my mother was young she was raped by a member of my dads family,from that rape a baby was born,11 years later that same man ,raped tortured and tried to kill that baby.never even knowin it was his own son he abused.my mother passed away yesterday ,but she told me her secret before she died,i was that baby ,i was that 11 year old.forgive him? my mom comitted suicide because of what he did to her,my life is the result of nothin but pain and fear,forgive him ,fuck him!i'll still have my hate when i see him in hell.and i'll go there gladly just to see him suffer. shadow
 
Adam,

What you stated above is a genuine statement of where you are at right now. I respect you for expressing these things. Because I've never been in your situation, I can only imagine the pain this brings to you. I can certainly understand the hatred.

I would never consider suggesting that you accept what he did as anything other that what you characterize it as. I would like to suggest however that at some point, and for your own good, that you learn to leave aside the hatred. It'll poison you and take over the good qualities you have, just as one rotten apple will spoil the whole box.

It may not happen today or next week or even next year, but eventually it'll leave you a broken and bitter old man. You're better than that, Adam. All of us here have seen the real you.

--The one that loves and cares for the kids next door.

--The one that stayed by the bedside of a dying old man just so he wouldn't be alone.

--The one whose grandmother saw in him something worth while and left all she had to him.

I'm not suggestion that you have to love the guy, just drop the bitterness out of your life, buddy. It may not be an easy thing, but you'll loose your life to it if you don't.

Love you Bro,

John
 
Nobby - with respect, this is not a nasty e-mail as you mentioned above, but yes it is an angry one.

If anyone is easily triggered, please don't read further, because I am about to tell it how it is!

Maybe I need to be a little more christian in my attitudes to perverted paedophiles that usually abuse far more than one child, some even bother with grooming, others just go straight for what they want. That's OK though, because they know that we will all just forgive them whatever.

Sorry I am one selfish, hateful person that is obviously on the path to self destruction because I cannot and will not ever forgive!

I must be such a wicked person because I cannot do that! Why not? I will tell everyone why not as many times as I need to! It's just sad that I have to do that - isn't it obvious!

The pervert that abused me could be mistaken for someone that is human (some of my friends at the trial stated that they thought he would look like some kind of freak...he doesn't), however he is incapable of showing humanity! Well maybe he can, but not to boys of a certain age - he thinks that they are toys to pick up and play with whenever he wants! Just like a playstation, hot wheels cars..get the picture!

If I am selfish, by refusing to accept that the creature that 'groomed/abused' me and many others is 'human' well sorry to be blunt, but I do hate him with a vengeance - I am proud of that!

I don't think that perps owe us anything, and I certainly don't owe them anything - I'll keep my energy for those that deserve it. I would never believe an apology from the perv that groomed and abused me (and many others) now, if he religiously stood on my doorstep every morning asking for forgiveness - he's had that opportunity and blown it!

As for the courts determining justice, sorry what? Not when I went to court...that was never justice as long as their is a **** in my ****!

As I found out in court, I wasn't groomed/ abused by a filthy paedophile, neither were any of the other survivors (at least double figures, possibly treble). WE ONLY EXPERIENCED THE INDISCRETIONS OF A GENTLEMAN (he was 32 when he got his hands on me, when I was just turned 12, so I purposely left of the 'elderly' comment that went unquestioned in court!

I don't have to remotely accept that the pervert that abused me (and many others) was innocent once - it is a total irrelevance! I am not going to abuse a child because of what happened to me - I more of an over protector because of it! Aren't you?

I don't doubt that the administrators of this site can tell us 'some' success stories of perps that have been rehabilitated, and applaud anyone that can achieve such success. Would you like to tell me what percentage of paedophiles that actually equates to in real terms. Probably around 0.00000000001%. Educate me if I'm wrong.

I don't live in 'cloud cuckoo land', so know that it is an absolute minority of paedophiles that 'changes their spots'.

I accept that your post is from your perspective and values, equally this is from mine, and I make no apologies for being blunt either.

There are things that I can forgive people for, e.g.:

Stealing my food because they are hungry.
Stealing my money, because they have none and haven't eaten, and I have no food to steal.
Picking the flowers from my garden because it is someones birthday, and they cannot afford a present.

What I cannot fogive is:
Stealing my childhood - no never... it is irreplaceable.
Stealing someone else's childhood before mine - no never - it is irreplaceable.
Stealing the childhood of many other boys after mine - no never - they are all irreplaceable.

A paedophile may not have control over the thoughts that they have...they do have a responsibility for their actions!

I have asked the question here before...'How many of you have received a sincere apology from the paedophile that abused you'? There were very few answers in the affirmative.

My personal healing commenced when I went to the police and said 'I was abused as a child'. I don't care about the paedophiles healing - I care that he is no longer in a position to abuse! I know that he would abuse again tommorrow given the opportunity.

If anyone really thinks that I should forgive him, then I ask you this question! Would you let him babysit/childmind your 10 to 14 year old son/nephew/god son, or any male child that you know within that age range. If you say yes you would... you know my opinion of you!

Best wishes ...Rik.

Do I smell coffee?

_____________________________________________

I also presume that from time to time, there will be paedophiles that read what we write here! If there are any reading now, I obviously detest the abuser that screwed up a portion of my life, but I would applaud you if you actually sought help for your urges.
 
Rik and the thread in general,

I don't doubt that the administrators of this site can tell us 'some' success stories of perps that have been rehabilitated, and applaud anyone that can achieve such success.
Click to expand...
Perhaps Ken can give us some idea of the percentage of abusers who are successfully rehabilitated. My guess would be it must be very low, but that may just be my prejudice on the matter.

Much love,
Larry
 
I have had my say on this topic so I don't plan on writing any more about it, but I too am interested in learning the rehabilitation rate of perps.
 
i agree with every person's opinion here.
at one point or another i have deeply believed all of them.
i used to cherish my hatred, like a secret sacred idol.
my precious.
i had a right to be angry.

but i let it go.
i forgave all the people that raped me, starting with the worst.
and i have never felt better in my entire life.

here is the link to my personal ordeal
healing through forgiveness.
https://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=432551#Post432551

hope it helps.
 
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