Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Morning Star.
I dont need a T and I am a Zen Master
Peace
(~_^)
I dont need a T and I am a Zen Master
Peace
(~_^)
Forgiveness...for the abusers?
- Thread startermelliferal
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reality2k4
Registrant
Forgiving is not defined in the dictionary as regards this thread which has seen a load of animation to it.
It is about little boys who were hurt at a young age and how they perceived keeping their minds safe in their world.
The whole issue of forgiving to me, was like acid in my veins, it was about deep hatred for myself in not being able to save other kids from a monster.
I should have been just like other boys who laughed and played in innocence.
It was just a life of totally beating myself up for his guilt, "not mine".
I was forced to "forgive", there was no other way of dealing with it.
It is never how we choose to "forgive" it is because we had to, there was no other way out of this dark tunnel,
ste
It is about little boys who were hurt at a young age and how they perceived keeping their minds safe in their world.
The whole issue of forgiving to me, was like acid in my veins, it was about deep hatred for myself in not being able to save other kids from a monster.
I should have been just like other boys who laughed and played in innocence.
It was just a life of totally beating myself up for his guilt, "not mine".
I was forced to "forgive", there was no other way of dealing with it.
It is never how we choose to "forgive" it is because we had to, there was no other way out of this dark tunnel,
ste
roadrunner
Registrant
Andrei,
I thought your presentation of your ideas on forgiveness were clear and lucid. At least, I am sure I got exactly what you mean. I also like your view that even if one forgives an abuser personally, and in the way you describe, that does not release him from facing society and the consequences for his acts as prescribed in law. You are saying that forgiving an abuser doesn't mean you release him from responsibility for what he has done.
Thanks for this perspective. I am going to have to go away and think about this one! Thanks for bringing it up.
Much love,
Larry
I thought your presentation of your ideas on forgiveness were clear and lucid. At least, I am sure I got exactly what you mean. I also like your view that even if one forgives an abuser personally, and in the way you describe, that does not release him from facing society and the consequences for his acts as prescribed in law. You are saying that forgiving an abuser doesn't mean you release him from responsibility for what he has done.
Thanks for this perspective. I am going to have to go away and think about this one! Thanks for bringing it up.
Much love,
Larry
This really is my last comment!
Instead of suggesting/preaching to me that I should forgive, let's try another angle.
I can give you James Fowler's address. I can take you to where he shops. I can show you where he gambles. I can show you the sites where I was abused! I can show you locations where he identified children to suit his purposes.
I have forgiven myself, and that is why I can argue my point here! That is why I can speak directly to the two known victims that were abused after me (and there are more). That is why I forgive the people that I know were abused before me! There is only one person at fault!
What I suggest, is that anyone that wants me to forgive him, first goes to his house and asks him if he wants to repent his sins!
If you receive an answer at all, it will be "What sins"?
Why on earth would anyone here want me to forgive him?
We also have a section here: Spirituality and Survivors - I suggest that all preaching is done on that part of the site! I don't mind anyone loving their religion, I just don't want it rammed down my throat!
New people arriving here may take our discussion at face value! If I had been preached to when I arrived here, I would have been off like a shot - James Fowler would not have been stopped & I would probably have gone completely mad or worse!
Best wishes ...Rik
Instead of suggesting/preaching to me that I should forgive, let's try another angle.
I can give you James Fowler's address. I can take you to where he shops. I can show you where he gambles. I can show you the sites where I was abused! I can show you locations where he identified children to suit his purposes.
I have forgiven myself, and that is why I can argue my point here! That is why I can speak directly to the two known victims that were abused after me (and there are more). That is why I forgive the people that I know were abused before me! There is only one person at fault!
What I suggest, is that anyone that wants me to forgive him, first goes to his house and asks him if he wants to repent his sins!
If you receive an answer at all, it will be "What sins"?
Why on earth would anyone here want me to forgive him?
We also have a section here: Spirituality and Survivors - I suggest that all preaching is done on that part of the site! I don't mind anyone loving their religion, I just don't want it rammed down my throat!
New people arriving here may take our discussion at face value! If I had been preached to when I arrived here, I would have been off like a shot - James Fowler would not have been stopped & I would probably have gone completely mad or worse!
Best wishes ...Rik
Not quite:
Quote:
"Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue."
If you are a new survivor here, and you think from this posting, that your first task here is to forgive a perpetrator that defiled you?? I can ensure you that it is not!
Who can qualify the statement "The majority is out there who have forgiven" Sorry but that is theoretical bullshit!
To all survivors here new/ young / old / whatever - forgive yourself for it is you that is important! The perpetrators feelings mean absolutely nothing!
*I will point out at this juncture, that I am aware that at least one person here DOES work with abusers. Does try to change their actions and lifestyle. I commend this work most highly! That is an amazing task to take on, and I do not disrespect that action in any way. I believe that person is working with people that want to change, that admit that what they have done is wrong! That is the difference.
Best wishes ...Rik
Quote:
"Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue."
If you are a new survivor here, and you think from this posting, that your first task here is to forgive a perpetrator that defiled you?? I can ensure you that it is not!
Who can qualify the statement "The majority is out there who have forgiven" Sorry but that is theoretical bullshit!
To all survivors here new/ young / old / whatever - forgive yourself for it is you that is important! The perpetrators feelings mean absolutely nothing!
*I will point out at this juncture, that I am aware that at least one person here DOES work with abusers. Does try to change their actions and lifestyle. I commend this work most highly! That is an amazing task to take on, and I do not disrespect that action in any way. I believe that person is working with people that want to change, that admit that what they have done is wrong! That is the difference.
Best wishes ...Rik
Well said Rick, simple as that.
This may be my last comment? Depends what follows?
I have sat here and read the whole of this post tonight, just to ensure that I have taken in all perspectives!
It appears that there are few that wish to forgive (and that is my own personal perspective)!
My question: Unless you are 110% sure that the person that abused you, is not abusing anyone else....why on earth would you even want to consider forgiving them?
My perspective here is adult v child!
Best wishes ...Rik.
*I am wondering right now, who is monitoring James Fowler at this moment? At some point on Saturday, did some child enter his house to play with guns? Will some child on Sunday enter his house to "play with guns"?
Remeber - I took the ******* to court & I'm still concerned at what he may be doing!
I have sat here and read the whole of this post tonight, just to ensure that I have taken in all perspectives!
It appears that there are few that wish to forgive (and that is my own personal perspective)!
My question: Unless you are 110% sure that the person that abused you, is not abusing anyone else....why on earth would you even want to consider forgiving them?
My perspective here is adult v child!
Best wishes ...Rik.
*I am wondering right now, who is monitoring James Fowler at this moment? At some point on Saturday, did some child enter his house to play with guns? Will some child on Sunday enter his house to "play with guns"?
Remeber - I took the ******* to court & I'm still concerned at what he may be doing!
reality2k4
Registrant
Rik,
I am surprised he is still in the area, but they will be monitoring him and also the neighbours will also.
Forgiveness is never to really forgive, but to forgive ones self of the hurt they did, and maybe to have them locked away so they cannot hurt others.
I never think that a court appearance is going to stop his life of abuse, it will just make him be more wary of being caught.
Unfortunately judges cannot consceivably see the harm that they do to kids, they just cannot grasp it,
ste
I am surprised he is still in the area, but they will be monitoring him and also the neighbours will also.
Forgiveness is never to really forgive, but to forgive ones self of the hurt they did, and maybe to have them locked away so they cannot hurt others.
I never think that a court appearance is going to stop his life of abuse, it will just make him be more wary of being caught.
Unfortunately judges cannot consceivably see the harm that they do to kids, they just cannot grasp it,
ste
roadrunner
Registrant
Rik,
I have seen talk about how to forgive the abuser is also to forgive myself. Huh? Why do I need forgiveness if nothing that happened was ever my fault?
I'm not arguing here, just expressing my inability to follow this argument.
Much love,
Larry
I would agree with that, and as you know my own perspective is very much against forgiving abusers. But part of that view rests, I think, on my inability to figure out how forgiving an abuser could ever help me.
I have seen talk about how to forgive the abuser is also to forgive myself. Huh? Why do I need forgiveness if nothing that happened was ever my fault?
I'm not arguing here, just expressing my inability to follow this argument.
Much love,
Larry
As I go on reading I find myself hiding more and more within myself because I feel I can not be true and share everything that I feel on this board. Which I guess is why I left for so long and for so many times. Maybe I should just leave and not return I am not sure. Somehow I have a hope deep down inside of me that there are people on this board that can help which I must add that I have met some and I do cherish them. Anyways again for fear of what will happen I just want to say what ever works for you is the best thing you should do..........
malidin41
malidin41
Malidin,
Do not feel pressured into opening up on the board when ever you are ready it is up to you to feel safe when you share and the men on this board understand more then other people around any of us that have never been in our shoes.The general public just does not understand what we as survivors have been thru and the hell we have had to endure.I would say this just because of this one topic don't let that drive you away from the very thing you are looking for which is someone that you can talk to that will be true and will listen to you and help you when you are ready and willing to share.
Do not feel pressured into opening up on the board when ever you are ready it is up to you to feel safe when you share and the men on this board understand more then other people around any of us that have never been in our shoes.The general public just does not understand what we as survivors have been thru and the hell we have had to endure.I would say this just because of this one topic don't let that drive you away from the very thing you are looking for which is someone that you can talk to that will be true and will listen to you and help you when you are ready and willing to share.
Forgiveness for some of us here may be something that has to happen in order for us to truely heal but,for others here forgiveness is just like the death row inmate just getting ready to meet his maker and he asks for forgiveness from whom ever he offended and those individuals forgive this offender and as some of us have witnessed it puts that offender at rest prior to meeting his maker.....my view is why would one want to put his offender at rest i personally would rather see the offender in agony and being torchered but that is my view what is the saying...."What goes around comes around" this is how i feel.Some say forgiveness is a choice and i would agree however,we all have our own timing and methods in how and when we forgive if we forgive at all.
I would say this though it helps to take in other opinions of other survivors as sometimes we need a different perspective even if we don't want to listen right then things sink in after awhile and maybe what someone else says may make a difference in someone elses life.
I would say this though it helps to take in other opinions of other survivors as sometimes we need a different perspective even if we don't want to listen right then things sink in after awhile and maybe what someone else says may make a difference in someone elses life.
I will leave the decision of what path one should take through this area of their recovery up to the individual who has to make that choice. They need to have the freedom of making that decision in a time, place, and method which meets their needs at the time. It would be somewhat arrogant and abusive of me to try to make that decision for anyone else here.
I can use black and white thinking on myself if I want to. It is wrong of me to impose it on anyone else in regards to the matter of forgiving anyone for anything.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Lots of love,
John
I can use black and white thinking on myself if I want to. It is wrong of me to impose it on anyone else in regards to the matter of forgiving anyone for anything.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Lots of love,
John
roadrunner
Registrant
John,
I really like this approach:
This thread hits a lot of hot buttons, and I hope everyone will read it just as ideas offered from a lot of different perspectives. There isn't any absolutely right or wrong way to deal with this one, I think. There is only "my way", which each of us has to figure out in terms of what we think is best for ourselves and for our recovery.
Much love,
Larry
I really like this approach:
This point is something that really needs to be stressed here.
This thread hits a lot of hot buttons, and I hope everyone will read it just as ideas offered from a lot of different perspectives. There isn't any absolutely right or wrong way to deal with this one, I think. There is only "my way", which each of us has to figure out in terms of what we think is best for ourselves and for our recovery.
Much love,
Larry
reality2k4
Registrant
"Sorry"!
How many times have I/You, used that same word.
It is a simple act of forgiveness borne out of guilt.
How many sorrys' do each and every one of us dish out in a lifetime, sometimes when we are really hurt by others?
The vicious circle of guilt from eternally forgiving or fighting when we need not have had to feel that way.
Forgiveness is simply an act of walking away from a situation rather than let it constantly hurt us.
Dont get messed up in this vicious circle, dont let it constantly hurt.
If somebody chopped my hand off, and I forgive them it is to lessen the pain, if they said sorry, it would not lessen the pain.
Forgiveness simply stops further hurt, but it is not going to much lessen the impact of abuse.
There simply is no other way out.
Anger and frustration have never solved anything that I ever remember.
That is my 0.02 cents,
ste
How many times have I/You, used that same word.
It is a simple act of forgiveness borne out of guilt.
How many sorrys' do each and every one of us dish out in a lifetime, sometimes when we are really hurt by others?
The vicious circle of guilt from eternally forgiving or fighting when we need not have had to feel that way.
Forgiveness is simply an act of walking away from a situation rather than let it constantly hurt us.
Dont get messed up in this vicious circle, dont let it constantly hurt.
If somebody chopped my hand off, and I forgive them it is to lessen the pain, if they said sorry, it would not lessen the pain.
Forgiveness simply stops further hurt, but it is not going to much lessen the impact of abuse.
There simply is no other way out.
Anger and frustration have never solved anything that I ever remember.
That is my 0.02 cents,
ste
I think it is very importent that no one here put on another person here how they must deal of this and heal. As it is said in other post, what work for us, it do not work always for others. Whether you 'should' forgive or not, it is your choice, not mine or no one else. We all have had enough forced on us in past. We do not need it here too. I have not forgiven anyone who abuse me. I do not feel need to. Maybe some day I will. But right now, I do not feel I need to to heal, or to feel I am good or complete person. Anyone who tell me I must, I have no respect for.
VN
VN
I am adding to this, because few times, I have tried to explain it, what I mean of 'forgiveness', and why I make the choice. Never I think I speak it properly.
But in a PM to someone, I said it I think right finally.
Forgiveness is not for the other person. It is for us. For me, to forgive, it was not to erase what was done to me. It was to allow me to be the person I am, and am meant to be. That is all.
Andrei
But in a PM to someone, I said it I think right finally.
Forgiveness is not for the other person. It is for us. For me, to forgive, it was not to erase what was done to me. It was to allow me to be the person I am, and am meant to be. That is all.
Andrei
relaxingpiano
Registrant
I believe forgiveness is a personal thing and when we are ready to look at it, we will. But until then it is a very difficult topic.
For years, I heard people tell me to forgive my abusers and there was no way that I could. The pain of what happened was still far too real to my heart. My heart had been torn apart and there was no way I could even think about forgiveness until my heart had mended a little.
Recently in a healing session, we did some work with forgiveness and I was quite shocked at myself because I never ever ever ever thought I'd see that day. But then it finally dawned on me that I wasn't doing this for my abusers... I was doing it for myself and to release myself from their shame, hurt and betrayal. Of course that is my process and where I'm at. It took me a long long time to get to this particular point in my own healing.
Forgiveness isn't an act that someone just does all at once. It is a process and it most likely comes when a person is ready for it. Everyone has different views on it and I believe they are all valid.
The more important point to focus on I believe is healing your life and being open to where ever that takes you. The rest is only mile markers on that journey.
Don
For years, I heard people tell me to forgive my abusers and there was no way that I could. The pain of what happened was still far too real to my heart. My heart had been torn apart and there was no way I could even think about forgiveness until my heart had mended a little.
Recently in a healing session, we did some work with forgiveness and I was quite shocked at myself because I never ever ever ever thought I'd see that day. But then it finally dawned on me that I wasn't doing this for my abusers... I was doing it for myself and to release myself from their shame, hurt and betrayal. Of course that is my process and where I'm at. It took me a long long time to get to this particular point in my own healing.
Forgiveness isn't an act that someone just does all at once. It is a process and it most likely comes when a person is ready for it. Everyone has different views on it and I believe they are all valid.
The more important point to focus on I believe is healing your life and being open to where ever that takes you. The rest is only mile markers on that journey.
Don
So forgive yourselves! **** the abusers - do they count for anything?
TRIGGER...TRIGGER...TRIGGER
I need the opportunity to stand in front of the paedophile that sexualised me and stole my formative years! I need to stand in front of his face and ask him why he wanted to remove my clothes and play with my body on several occassions! I want to know why he pretended to be my best friend (a replacement uncle/grandfather) prior to abusing my body and mind!!??
I know that he would deny everything, as he has on numerous occassions in a legal setting! Only once pleading guilty, then trying to withdraw that plea!
Do not fool yourselves...forgiving yourself is one thing...attempting to give a reason for forgiving these vile excuses for human beings is another! Please do not confuse the two.
Make exuces for them if you wish...is that forgiveness. I believe that really forgiving, means self forgiveness....let them plead their own forgiveness....James Fowler has never asked my forgiveness! He admitted 4 specimen crimes against myself, and 1 specimen crime against another....then tried to withdraw the guilty plea.
I end, where I came in.... **** the abusers!
Best wishes...Rik
TRIGGER...TRIGGER...TRIGGER
I need the opportunity to stand in front of the paedophile that sexualised me and stole my formative years! I need to stand in front of his face and ask him why he wanted to remove my clothes and play with my body on several occassions! I want to know why he pretended to be my best friend (a replacement uncle/grandfather) prior to abusing my body and mind!!??
I know that he would deny everything, as he has on numerous occassions in a legal setting! Only once pleading guilty, then trying to withdraw that plea!
Do not fool yourselves...forgiving yourself is one thing...attempting to give a reason for forgiving these vile excuses for human beings is another! Please do not confuse the two.
Make exuces for them if you wish...is that forgiveness. I believe that really forgiving, means self forgiveness....let them plead their own forgiveness....James Fowler has never asked my forgiveness! He admitted 4 specimen crimes against myself, and 1 specimen crime against another....then tried to withdraw the guilty plea.
I end, where I came in.... **** the abusers!
Best wishes...Rik