Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Whatever happened to ALTRUISM??
Not a very Christian attitude......
Forgiveness...for the abusers?
- Thread startermelliferal
- Start date
Not a very Christian attitude......
roadrunner
Registrant
This morning I got up early with my wife and fixed us some turkish coffee before she went off to work. It's quiet and cosy in the house and it's our 25th wedding anniversary. I am really happy today and grateful for so many things: on this day especially for the wonderful woman in my life. I am planning what I will prepare for dinner tonight and looking forward to celebrating the continuing love and caring that we share.
What does this have to do with forgiveness of the abuser? Nothing maybe, and perhaps everything, depending on how I look at it. All these things I am doing today, all the feelings of fulfillment and joy I have right now, I have without the abuser in the picture in any way. I think the course I have chosen, without thinking of it in this way, is something like what what JapanZen suggests:
I don't think of this as mere verbal acrobatics. To me it looks like a good option, the one that empowers ME because it leave the abuser where I want him - nowhere. I don't say this out of rage, though I understand the rage of others and don't deny them that right. I see it as a conscious reasoned choice. It allows me to focus entirely on the work that I need to do.
If I devote any resources to the forgiveness question, aren't I allowing the abuser back into my life in some sense? Aren't I then obliged to decide what to "do" with him within the framework of my recovery?
For me this is all about making the choice that suits ME. I don't have to choose between forgiving or not forgiving. I can also choose not to even get into that question, and that spares me the need to deal with all the imponderable and futile questions concerning abusers and why they do what they do.
This works for me because the man who abused me is dead now. Were he alive I doubt that I would follow this road. I would probably want to pursue the path that Rik and Kirk have chosen, that young Adam has followed, and that teenager Bill is just embarking on. But even here I think my target would not be the abuser himself, but the selfish cruelty and evil he stands for. Exposing and pursuing him would be a way of exposing and pursuing child abuse itself. THAT would be a target I would have been most willing to draw aim on.
Much love,
Larry
What does this have to do with forgiveness of the abuser? Nothing maybe, and perhaps everything, depending on how I look at it. All these things I am doing today, all the feelings of fulfillment and joy I have right now, I have without the abuser in the picture in any way. I think the course I have chosen, without thinking of it in this way, is something like what what JapanZen suggests:
In other words, I think what I have done is just to refuse to get into that dynamic at all. I want the abuser entirely out of my life, so I refuse even to consider whether I should or should not forgive him.
I don't think of this as mere verbal acrobatics. To me it looks like a good option, the one that empowers ME because it leave the abuser where I want him - nowhere. I don't say this out of rage, though I understand the rage of others and don't deny them that right. I see it as a conscious reasoned choice. It allows me to focus entirely on the work that I need to do.
If I devote any resources to the forgiveness question, aren't I allowing the abuser back into my life in some sense? Aren't I then obliged to decide what to "do" with him within the framework of my recovery?
For me this is all about making the choice that suits ME. I don't have to choose between forgiving or not forgiving. I can also choose not to even get into that question, and that spares me the need to deal with all the imponderable and futile questions concerning abusers and why they do what they do.
This works for me because the man who abused me is dead now. Were he alive I doubt that I would follow this road. I would probably want to pursue the path that Rik and Kirk have chosen, that young Adam has followed, and that teenager Bill is just embarking on. But even here I think my target would not be the abuser himself, but the selfish cruelty and evil he stands for. Exposing and pursuing him would be a way of exposing and pursuing child abuse itself. THAT would be a target I would have been most willing to draw aim on.
Much love,
Larry
Morning Star
Registrant
When it comes to life, there is no middle ground you can escape to, either you make a choice or you dont, either way you ARE making a choice.
Similarly, either you forgive or you dont, because not forgiving is also a choice, that you have to take consequences for.
Your relationship with your abuser is also part of your growth you can't run away from it. Either you are at peace with him or not, there are no middle grounds.
And yes, hiding behind semantics doesn't work in real life. Or choosing a path of least resistance, where you dont get to do anything just talk how hurt you were, or how angry you are, we all have to work out our wounds and anger, staying angry is the power I was urging to relinquish, that is what keeps a victim trapped in the unforgiven state. Because once you let go of your anger, you can no longer feel better off than anyone.
The abuser has done his karma and move on, while you are still stuck there karmically, because you haven't worked it out, either forgiven or accepted.
Even if you are a non believer, the best judge is your own conscience, if you continue to feel hurt by the experience, then it is not over.
So, either you are doing something about, or not, your CHOICE.
Similarly, either you forgive or you dont, because not forgiving is also a choice, that you have to take consequences for.
Your relationship with your abuser is also part of your growth you can't run away from it. Either you are at peace with him or not, there are no middle grounds.
And yes, hiding behind semantics doesn't work in real life. Or choosing a path of least resistance, where you dont get to do anything just talk how hurt you were, or how angry you are, we all have to work out our wounds and anger, staying angry is the power I was urging to relinquish, that is what keeps a victim trapped in the unforgiven state. Because once you let go of your anger, you can no longer feel better off than anyone.
The abuser has done his karma and move on, while you are still stuck there karmically, because you haven't worked it out, either forgiven or accepted.
Even if you are a non believer, the best judge is your own conscience, if you continue to feel hurt by the experience, then it is not over.
So, either you are doing something about, or not, your CHOICE.
roadrunner
Registrant
Morning Star,
I would say, yes, if I refuse even to think about forgiveness, then I come to the same result as I would if I consider all the options and then DECIDE not to forgive.
But I would say that if the result is the same for the abuser (no forgiveness) it isn't the same for me. If I decline even to consider the problem, I spare myself a lot of agonizing over who the abuser is, what his problems or background might be, why he abused me, why he never showed remorse, why he exulted in his ability to shame and humiliate me, and so on. I feel I can let go of my anger and move on in recovery without that detour. I can leave him exactly where he deserves to be - rejected as having led a life devoid of any positive meaning. I feel I can do that objectively (if not serenely), without any bitterness or hate.
Much love,
Larry
I would say, yes, if I refuse even to think about forgiveness, then I come to the same result as I would if I consider all the options and then DECIDE not to forgive.
But I would say that if the result is the same for the abuser (no forgiveness) it isn't the same for me. If I decline even to consider the problem, I spare myself a lot of agonizing over who the abuser is, what his problems or background might be, why he abused me, why he never showed remorse, why he exulted in his ability to shame and humiliate me, and so on. I feel I can let go of my anger and move on in recovery without that detour. I can leave him exactly where he deserves to be - rejected as having led a life devoid of any positive meaning. I feel I can do that objectively (if not serenely), without any bitterness or hate.
Much love,
Larry
Morning Star
Forgiveness is an abstract concept and therefore can not be a straight "yes" or "no" (forgive or not) there are also other options.
I still have issues, but that doesnt mean I am not at peace and will not be drawn into forgiving or not.
Those issues may for example come from things surrounding my abuse, such as the trial or the Police investigation or my relationship with my fathers other victims.
They are not to do with forgiving or not forgiving.
I would never presume to tell you how to live your life, so please desist from telling us what we should or shouldnt do.
Different strokes for different folks, perhaps your are the one wearing blinkers by thinking that forgiveness is such a clear cut issue.
It is something I dont need.
You obviously did, Im not going to critisize. Please do us the same courtesy.
What I am saying (and I think Larry also) is that we are at peace without brining forgiveness into this.
Forgiveness is an abstract concept and therefore can not be a straight "yes" or "no" (forgive or not) there are also other options.
I still have issues, but that doesnt mean I am not at peace and will not be drawn into forgiving or not.
Those issues may for example come from things surrounding my abuse, such as the trial or the Police investigation or my relationship with my fathers other victims.
They are not to do with forgiving or not forgiving.
I would never presume to tell you how to live your life, so please desist from telling us what we should or shouldnt do.
Different strokes for different folks, perhaps your are the one wearing blinkers by thinking that forgiveness is such a clear cut issue.
It is something I dont need.
You obviously did, Im not going to critisize. Please do us the same courtesy.
roadrunner
Registrant
Just a note about this from JapanZen:
Much love,
Larry
I would just add that for me "forgiveness", whatever that proves to mean, lies at the end of a process of thinking and deciding about a lot of things. My choice is to decline to get into that process, though I understand that it might be important for other survivors.
Much love,
Larry
Morning Star
Registrant
Japan, your comments about blinkers and Christianity are a nasty and disrespectful. Please refrain from them in future, and not turn this lively discussion into a personal battle field as it would defeat the entire purpose of this forum.
Further, if my obeservations are troubling you, you need to ask yourself why, as they have no harm meant.
Further, if my obeservations are troubling you, you need to ask yourself why, as they have no harm meant.
Morning Star
Registrant
Larry, if your 'detour' takes you to place where you are completely at peace with your abuser, and have no hurtful feeling residual from your abuse, then I am completely at peace with your stance. But if that is because you want to bypass the painful process of all the whys you have mentioned, then I fear these will come up again, sooner or later in life, just be aware.
Again, I am not adamant just because I want to, I am so because I want the best for my friend.
Love,
Again, I am not adamant just because I want to, I am so because I want the best for my friend.
Love,
Morning Star
Your observations cause me no worries or trouble whatsoever.
If you talked more about ME and I instead of WE and US I would respect your opinion more.
You seem not to respect our opinions about forgiveness and not needing it, why is that?
Your observations cause me no worries or trouble whatsoever.
If you talked more about ME and I instead of WE and US I would respect your opinion more.
You seem not to respect our opinions about forgiveness and not needing it, why is that?
Morning Star, I respect your right to your own opinions.
However, your refusal to accept mine (ours) and preaching what we must do on our road to recovery isn't helpful.
Everyones journey is different.
However, your refusal to accept mine (ours) and preaching what we must do on our road to recovery isn't helpful.
Everyones journey is different.
I refuse to waste any more energy on this topic! The abusers are nasty perverts - the only energy we should be wasting on them is getting them jailed!
There are millions of people on this planet that deserve further energy from myself.
WE SIMPLY DO'NT HAVE TO FORGIVE THEM. I WILL NOT EVER.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I HAVE BAD KARMA, OR BAD ANYTHING ELSE!
Some of the posts on this topic imply that it is important to forgive those perverts. Remember that many people visit here and post nothing. Many people here find it difficult to forgive themselves.
I think that we should be spending more time supporting them, rather than wondering about forgiving perverts.
I won't see any responses that my final post receives on this topic, as it is starting to get annoying!
Best wishes...Rik
There are millions of people on this planet that deserve further energy from myself.
WE SIMPLY DO'NT HAVE TO FORGIVE THEM. I WILL NOT EVER.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT I HAVE BAD KARMA, OR BAD ANYTHING ELSE!
Some of the posts on this topic imply that it is important to forgive those perverts. Remember that many people visit here and post nothing. Many people here find it difficult to forgive themselves.
I think that we should be spending more time supporting them, rather than wondering about forgiving perverts.
I won't see any responses that my final post receives on this topic, as it is starting to get annoying!
Best wishes...Rik
reality2k4
Registrant
Rik,
I know you said you will not reply to this thread no more.
Take a step back, a big step back, get it in control.
Only the victims of abuse can ever see how much hurt abusers do.
I know you are thinking!
How is he still able to walk the streets without being locked away.
It must be massive on your mind right now.
You have though scored a victory, he will be known as a child abuser for the rest of his life in that area.
The evidence that you guys put before the court, and the fact that he still had boys visiting his home should have warranted a jail term.
When we talk about forgiveness, we are not talking really about totally forgiving them.
We are talking about forgiving to help us survive beating ourselves up.
I forgave because I had to do it, otherwise it could have turned pretty bad in his mind.
To lessen our own hurt is to forgive, but it is not to forgive what they have done.
It is to lessen the impact of not getting the desired outcome.
If we forgive then we are not totally going ballistic within our own minds on retribution.
You know who he is, but I guess he has fled from the area to another place.
I hope he has for your peace of mind.
My abuser never got caught, but my mind was blanked out to his appearance anyhow, that is how good a job he did on me, I could never recognize him, but maybe I could if he had not threatened my family and myself.
It is not really forgiving the abuser, but forgiving yourself for being abused, and there is a difference.
ste
I know you said you will not reply to this thread no more.
Take a step back, a big step back, get it in control.
Only the victims of abuse can ever see how much hurt abusers do.
I know you are thinking!
How is he still able to walk the streets without being locked away.
It must be massive on your mind right now.
You have though scored a victory, he will be known as a child abuser for the rest of his life in that area.
The evidence that you guys put before the court, and the fact that he still had boys visiting his home should have warranted a jail term.
When we talk about forgiveness, we are not talking really about totally forgiving them.
We are talking about forgiving to help us survive beating ourselves up.
I forgave because I had to do it, otherwise it could have turned pretty bad in his mind.
To lessen our own hurt is to forgive, but it is not to forgive what they have done.
It is to lessen the impact of not getting the desired outcome.
If we forgive then we are not totally going ballistic within our own minds on retribution.
You know who he is, but I guess he has fled from the area to another place.
I hope he has for your peace of mind.
My abuser never got caught, but my mind was blanked out to his appearance anyhow, that is how good a job he did on me, I could never recognize him, but maybe I could if he had not threatened my family and myself.
It is not really forgiving the abuser, but forgiving yourself for being abused, and there is a difference.
ste
roadrunner
Registrant
I would just note here that the topic of the thread is explosive - we have all known that from the beginning. It touches each and every one of us to our very soul.
Let's acknowledge the variety of ways we cope with this issue, just as we acknowledge the different ways we have coped with abuse itself. It is to our credit as survivors that we can even talk about it at all.
None of us means to hurt another, of that I am very sure. I for one have learned so much, and especially from those who challenge me with a different point of view. That's what dialogue is all about.
Much love,
Larry
Let's acknowledge the variety of ways we cope with this issue, just as we acknowledge the different ways we have coped with abuse itself. It is to our credit as survivors that we can even talk about it at all.
None of us means to hurt another, of that I am very sure. I for one have learned so much, and especially from those who challenge me with a different point of view. That's what dialogue is all about.
Much love,
Larry
melliferal
Registrant
We seem to be getting hung up over "forgiveness for ourselves vs. forgiveness for our abuser". The conversation was regarding the latter. And I don't believe that the two are the same thing.
Consider, for instance, what there is to gain by forgiving the abuser. Morning Star says that we stand to gain a whole lot by doing this. I disagree - I believe that forgiveness, or denial of forgiveness, for my abusers will not make a whit of difference in the Universe, because 1) my abusers aren't around to know whether or not I forgive them, 2) I have no evidence which shows that my abusers even want forgiveness (some, like Rick, indeed have evidence that their abusers specifically do not want forgiveness, in fact what they want is everybody to think they never did anything at all), and 3) whether or not it is indeed my place to actually forgive anyone besides myself for anything whatsoever is a philisophical argument I've not seen a satisfactory resolution for. Thus, for me to write or say "I forgive my abuser" is to say something empty and meaningless. I could say the words over and over again, every morning in the mirror, and my attitude toward my abusers, and CSA in general, will simply not change, positively or negatively. Not one iota.
Next, it is entirely possible to simply not have an opinion on the matter. By analogy, try asking someone who's never tasted calamari whether he likes or dislikes it. He cannot answer, because he has no frame of reference. Someone, like me, who does not fully understand the implications and particulars behind "forgiving" the people who used and abused him simply cannot make the decision. Morning Star has tried to clarify those particulars(a decent effort, I might add), but it is still not enough because he is trying to explain it within the context of his own personal belief system, which features some things, such as Karma, that I'm not entirely sure I subscribe to or believe in. I have my own singular beliefs, and those beliefs draw certain lines regarding what I can and cannot allow myself to do.
Consider, for instance, what there is to gain by forgiving the abuser. Morning Star says that we stand to gain a whole lot by doing this. I disagree - I believe that forgiveness, or denial of forgiveness, for my abusers will not make a whit of difference in the Universe, because 1) my abusers aren't around to know whether or not I forgive them, 2) I have no evidence which shows that my abusers even want forgiveness (some, like Rick, indeed have evidence that their abusers specifically do not want forgiveness, in fact what they want is everybody to think they never did anything at all), and 3) whether or not it is indeed my place to actually forgive anyone besides myself for anything whatsoever is a philisophical argument I've not seen a satisfactory resolution for. Thus, for me to write or say "I forgive my abuser" is to say something empty and meaningless. I could say the words over and over again, every morning in the mirror, and my attitude toward my abusers, and CSA in general, will simply not change, positively or negatively. Not one iota.
Next, it is entirely possible to simply not have an opinion on the matter. By analogy, try asking someone who's never tasted calamari whether he likes or dislikes it. He cannot answer, because he has no frame of reference. Someone, like me, who does not fully understand the implications and particulars behind "forgiving" the people who used and abused him simply cannot make the decision. Morning Star has tried to clarify those particulars(a decent effort, I might add), but it is still not enough because he is trying to explain it within the context of his own personal belief system, which features some things, such as Karma, that I'm not entirely sure I subscribe to or believe in. I have my own singular beliefs, and those beliefs draw certain lines regarding what I can and cannot allow myself to do.
Morning Star
Registrant
I think what is happening out here is very dangerous for some new survivor, might walk in and take our discussion on its face value.
Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue.
So I may recommend to all new survivors here, Please keep this discussion for your T only, as you would get confused here. He would introduce you to it when you are ready.
I can see many here were not ready for it, and got so worked up.
Take your time my friends, there is no hurry or need to justify it to me, I am out of it. Now it is up to you, if my arguments appeal to you apply them, if they dont, then so be it.
Right now the majority seems to be in favour of not forgiving for one reason or another, my fear is that a new survivor might buy into it, get stuck. The majority is out there, who have forgiven and moved on from this site, or this issue.
So I may recommend to all new survivors here, Please keep this discussion for your T only, as you would get confused here. He would introduce you to it when you are ready.
I can see many here were not ready for it, and got so worked up.
Take your time my friends, there is no hurry or need to justify it to me, I am out of it. Now it is up to you, if my arguments appeal to you apply them, if they dont, then so be it.
Morning Star
Registrant
Japan,
I would recommend you too keep this issue for your T or a Zen master.
all the best
I would recommend you too keep this issue for your T or a Zen master.
all the best
melliferal
Registrant
I disagree, again. I started this topic because once I'd considered it, I had a feeling there would be many takes on it - a feeling which has been borne out by the response. It's obvious that some people have very strong opinions about it. But that doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, discuss it. It just means that we need to stay civil as we discuss it. If one doesn't feel he could handle the discussion, then he should leave - the way Rick did.
Now, back to the discussion. Morning Star, you said
Because Kirk Wayne did not forgive, his perpetrators, and their sick "friends", have been tried and sentenced by a court of law. They will never be allowed near kids again.
Because Rick did not forgive, his perpetrator has also been tried and sentenced. Because he did not forgive, the lives of the children seen leaving the perp's residence when the cops came to question him will be spared a lifetime of misery.
Because the new user Bill_h_pike has chosen to not forgive, his local DA office will be filing charges against his perpetrator, a youth group leader, who has access to who knows how many potential victims.
Because hundreds of parishoners have chosen to not forgive, the old chain of transferring known or suspected pedophile priests to other jurisdictions to keep things quiet has been broken, and some of these men are being brought to justice, and seperated from those they want to abuse.
What does one get from not forgiving? The knowledge that lives have been saved. The comfort of knowing that many more people will never have to visit this forum, because one person decided that his abuser deserved justice, not forgiveness. Perhaps some refuse forgiveness not for selfish reasons, but rather out of selflessness.
Now, back to the discussion. Morning Star, you said
I think the answer is somewhat obvious.
Because Kirk Wayne did not forgive, his perpetrators, and their sick "friends", have been tried and sentenced by a court of law. They will never be allowed near kids again.
Because Rick did not forgive, his perpetrator has also been tried and sentenced. Because he did not forgive, the lives of the children seen leaving the perp's residence when the cops came to question him will be spared a lifetime of misery.
Because the new user Bill_h_pike has chosen to not forgive, his local DA office will be filing charges against his perpetrator, a youth group leader, who has access to who knows how many potential victims.
Because hundreds of parishoners have chosen to not forgive, the old chain of transferring known or suspected pedophile priests to other jurisdictions to keep things quiet has been broken, and some of these men are being brought to justice, and seperated from those they want to abuse.
What does one get from not forgiving? The knowledge that lives have been saved. The comfort of knowing that many more people will never have to visit this forum, because one person decided that his abuser deserved justice, not forgiveness. Perhaps some refuse forgiveness not for selfish reasons, but rather out of selflessness.
Just because there is certain dictionery definition of 'forgiveness' does not mean it is what *I* mean when I say I forgave one my abusers.
When I offered 'forgiveness', it was more of me then of him, because he never ask for it, and I do not know ever he will. It was not act of 'excusing' what he done, but accepting it, that it happened and I have no control of that; what I have control of is my perception of it. Not having forgiven him, I had much fear of him, and felt more not in control of situation. My being able to tell him that 'I release you of what you done to me, because I would much rather live as myself then as you', that was me telling that to MYSELF, and taking back control of the situation, and my relationship with my abuser (I do not mean 'relationship' in that there is one, like friendship or anything; I mean 'relationship' as my perceptions of him and what happened, and my feelings of the memories and leftovers it gives to me).
I believe very much of God, and I want very much to be a good person. Not just to not disappoint God. But to not disappoint myself, my family, my friends. I did not 'forgive' because it is what I think God would want me to do. There is one my abusers, I would never forgive him, in life or in my mind even, and never would think of it. And it do not bother me. I do what *I* feel I need and want to do, for ME, NOT for them.
Lot of this issue is become personal insults between grown adults. That is not productive, respectful, or appropriate here. If there is personal disagreements, perhaps it should be dealt with in more personal (private) way.
If someone want to think me foolish or stupid for what or how I think, that is their right. Perhaps they are correct. But I still feel as I do, and have no regret of it.
Andrei
When I offered 'forgiveness', it was more of me then of him, because he never ask for it, and I do not know ever he will. It was not act of 'excusing' what he done, but accepting it, that it happened and I have no control of that; what I have control of is my perception of it. Not having forgiven him, I had much fear of him, and felt more not in control of situation. My being able to tell him that 'I release you of what you done to me, because I would much rather live as myself then as you', that was me telling that to MYSELF, and taking back control of the situation, and my relationship with my abuser (I do not mean 'relationship' in that there is one, like friendship or anything; I mean 'relationship' as my perceptions of him and what happened, and my feelings of the memories and leftovers it gives to me).
I believe very much of God, and I want very much to be a good person. Not just to not disappoint God. But to not disappoint myself, my family, my friends. I did not 'forgive' because it is what I think God would want me to do. There is one my abusers, I would never forgive him, in life or in my mind even, and never would think of it. And it do not bother me. I do what *I* feel I need and want to do, for ME, NOT for them.
Lot of this issue is become personal insults between grown adults. That is not productive, respectful, or appropriate here. If there is personal disagreements, perhaps it should be dealt with in more personal (private) way.
If someone want to think me foolish or stupid for what or how I think, that is their right. Perhaps they are correct. But I still feel as I do, and have no regret of it.
Andrei
Just, I wanted to add. One of my abusers is dead. One is in prison for life, for abusing, but also for murdering three boys. Another has lost his job. Another has been fined and greatly limited in his job abilities. To me, 'forgive' is to not excuse from legal consequences. Forgive was for me to take control of my emotions of the situation. Even persons who 'forgive' can still do things to protect other children.
Andrei
melliferal
Registrant
See, this is the concept I can't get my mind around. I don't see how I could on the one hand say "I forgive your for what you did to me", and on the next haul the same person to court to testify against him - for what he did to me. It's too paradoxical; it's prima facie evidence that I do not, in fact, forgive him. People are using some intensely nonstandard definitions of "forgiveness" here. I always took "forgive" to mean "absolve of responsibility"; in other words, to forgive someone for abusing you is to no longer hold him responsible for your abuse. If one truly forgives somebody, how could one press charges at the same time while remaining intellectually honest?
Perhaps it's a perceptual issue. I don't think "not liking your abuser" is a case of the abuser controlling you. Therefore, I don't see my wanting an abuser in jail, or just generally disliking pedophiles, as some sort of demon that needs to be exorcised in order to find peace. There'll always be someone or something we dislike - a politician, or a celebrity, or a certain type of weather or food. There will be some things that we dislike intensely. Normal people who have not been abused harbor anger and hatred for things. So, if I were to guage my healing, as it were, by how closely my emotional state resembles that of the average "control group" calm not-abused person, I don't think it's fair on myself to demand that I no longer feel anger or dislike for people who have done me wrong, because "normal" people are fully allowed to experience such emotions.