Forgiveness...for the abusers?
Forgiveness...for the abusers?
- Thread startermelliferal
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Melliferal,
There were four perps in my life, or was it five? Anyway, I haven't forgiven them. They never asked and even if they did I don't think I could. I don't have that kind of power. I have let it go, or at least I am working on that. By letting it go, they no longer have control over me. God can forgive them if they ask. If not, they can roast in hell. Either way, I'm not going to worry about it; I have better things to do.
Love ya
Darrel
There were four perps in my life, or was it five? Anyway, I haven't forgiven them. They never asked and even if they did I don't think I could. I don't have that kind of power. I have let it go, or at least I am working on that. By letting it go, they no longer have control over me. God can forgive them if they ask. If not, they can roast in hell. Either way, I'm not going to worry about it; I have better things to do.
Love ya
Darrel
Forgiveness why do such a stupid act rather tell your perp to pick out his bullet pay for it then take him out to the woods and say run for it then as the perp goes to make a run for it the perp turns into "White Buffalo" that is true forgiveness the right way. no god can help in any way what we went thru and if their was a god where the F*** was this so called god there is no god keep that junk to your own opinion no need for it here keep it in the other forum where it belongs not on a thread like this we all have our opinion and mine is "No forgiveness,Pain for the perp,Firing Squad debt repayal"
Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member
Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member
melliferal
Registrant
Andrew,
A long time ago, a little bit before the abuse actually, I met someone who gave me some advice which I feel is very pertinent. He told me that people really only "win" in games. In real life, victory can sometimes be as costly as defeat. The winners, he said, may get to write all the history, but they also have to dig all the graves.
People can be angry, and full of spite for other people. Even the best of us feel this way; that's why I don't think harboring some anger or desire for revenge against my perpetrators MUST be considered as the perpetrator "controlling you". However, the question of the perpetrator is one that may not be best solved with the bullet. It might make you feel better - at first. After all, you're the "winner", aren't you? But people who kill other people are still criminals, and no excuse is really good enough for being a criminal. Especially killing someone - that's one task that leaves you "digging graves" for the rest of what's left of your life. And my friend, that's really the perpetrator's victory - he won't have to dig a single one.
Besides, dead men don't feel shame. And that's where the real justice is waiting, is it not?
A long time ago, a little bit before the abuse actually, I met someone who gave me some advice which I feel is very pertinent. He told me that people really only "win" in games. In real life, victory can sometimes be as costly as defeat. The winners, he said, may get to write all the history, but they also have to dig all the graves.
People can be angry, and full of spite for other people. Even the best of us feel this way; that's why I don't think harboring some anger or desire for revenge against my perpetrators MUST be considered as the perpetrator "controlling you". However, the question of the perpetrator is one that may not be best solved with the bullet. It might make you feel better - at first. After all, you're the "winner", aren't you? But people who kill other people are still criminals, and no excuse is really good enough for being a criminal. Especially killing someone - that's one task that leaves you "digging graves" for the rest of what's left of your life. And my friend, that's really the perpetrator's victory - he won't have to dig a single one.
Besides, dead men don't feel shame. And that's where the real justice is waiting, is it not?
No one said anything about killing the perp that is what you said,having the perp buy their own bullet and taking them out to the woods and telling them to run could mean almost anything what if a certain person wanted to have some fun with the perp not necessarily what you referred to but rather target practice.
Also it all depends on how you classify "Winning" that could mean almost anything too especially if you have info that could make your mind up no matter what evidence is presented to you. if other lives are in "jeopardy" then action must be taken before those lives are placed in "harms way" if you have been told something by someone and that info classifies as pertinent info in regards to the mission at hand then you take that info and digest it and put it to use as it may lay no matter what the circumstances are surrounding it if it helps "Win the battle" and your still left standing afterward even if that means digging a grave at least you know that the person you just put in the ground won't ever harm another "soul" and you won't have to worry and carry that burden anymore inside of you knowing that info and having to classify the person as an "iminent threat to loss of life with collateral damage"
Why would we want the perp to dig a grave that is not what we all want from these animals they should never have that task before them.Dead men don't feel shame but they do feel pain and they will forever be who they are no matter whether dead or alive especially if they are on a list regardless of if they are brought back to life or not they are forever marked along with their grave stones
Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member
Also it all depends on how you classify "Winning" that could mean almost anything too especially if you have info that could make your mind up no matter what evidence is presented to you. if other lives are in "jeopardy" then action must be taken before those lives are placed in "harms way" if you have been told something by someone and that info classifies as pertinent info in regards to the mission at hand then you take that info and digest it and put it to use as it may lay no matter what the circumstances are surrounding it if it helps "Win the battle" and your still left standing afterward even if that means digging a grave at least you know that the person you just put in the ground won't ever harm another "soul" and you won't have to worry and carry that burden anymore inside of you knowing that info and having to classify the person as an "iminent threat to loss of life with collateral damage"
Why would we want the perp to dig a grave that is not what we all want from these animals they should never have that task before them.Dead men don't feel shame but they do feel pain and they will forever be who they are no matter whether dead or alive especially if they are on a list regardless of if they are brought back to life or not they are forever marked along with their grave stones
Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member
melliferal
Registrant
Well either way, what ends up happening is Someone-Who-Is-Not-The-Perp goes to jail. That's not the way it's supposed to go.
A dangerous way of thinking. I get this sort of explanation a lot when dealing with people who study the martial arts because they think they can use it to defend themselves. Much of the time, what they try to call self-defense is actually assault, but nevermind that. Most of these people, when asked, will tell you that if they are ever "attacked", then it is necessary often to seriously injure or even kill the attacker, and consequences be damned. The relevant pearl is, "better to be judged by twelve (jurors) than be carried by six (pallbearers)". What these people fail to realize is, it isn't that black and white, ever. You can, in fact, choose to be neither judged by 12 nor carried by 6. But these people want to look and sound macho; pay them no mind. The moral of the story: there's more than one way to stop a "dangerous" person from hurting anyone. Volunteering for prison in exchange for saving lives can sound noble - but if you understand that you can save those same lives without volunteering for prison, then the former is no longer noble, but ridiculous.
Dead men feel nothing. No shame, no guilt, no pain. They don't care who remembers them, they don't care about post-mortem press coverage, they don't care what sort of lists they used to be on, or the families or victims they leave behind. They don't care about anything. They're dead. They don't have eyes to see the way other people look at them, nor ears to hear what living people say about them.
A perpetrator in prison for a sexual offense, however, will feel shame. They may or may not feel guilt, but they will feel pain - probably most nights, if not every night. They will suffer the consequences of a life-long stigma, even if they do make it out of prison. Their lives will be a living hell. Which, if you don't believe in some kind of real hell (perfectly fine, that), should be something to take delight in. Being not-convicted of (insert felony here) would make that delight easier to take. I couldn't imagine being happy in prison, no matter what the news. Also (at the risk of being too frank) to consider is the fact that a follow prisoner, when committing a certain offense against your person, won't be sympathetic just because the same thing may have happened when you were sommat younger.
And it's very hard for a felon to get a job these days.
roadrunner
Registrant
This thread has really gone heavy since I last posted to it, and I thought I would just put in a few words directed you you, Andrew76.
I understand your anger bro, and I wouldn't deny you your right to it, not in 1000 years. I would also never tell you that you should forgive the perp - that's up to you. From your past posts I have some idea of all you have suffered and lost. It's not meant to be this way.
I would just ask you to think honestly if you feel you would gain much from the kind of retaliation you describe. Perhaps at the moment you would feel you had your revenge - okay. But would it help you to heal? I'm not sure I see how that could happen.
Another point would be this. You strike me as a good guy. You have endured a lot, sure, and you are holding onto a lot of bitterness and anger - but that's something else. You really seem to be a good and decent person. Wouldn't the kind of revenge you talk about take a terrible toll from you? I suspect you would eventually see that even in death the perp has won again. That would be a terrible thing to discover.
Just some thoughts Andrew. I hope you can feel that you are appreciated and cared about here.
Much love,
Larry
I understand your anger bro, and I wouldn't deny you your right to it, not in 1000 years. I would also never tell you that you should forgive the perp - that's up to you. From your past posts I have some idea of all you have suffered and lost. It's not meant to be this way.
I would just ask you to think honestly if you feel you would gain much from the kind of retaliation you describe. Perhaps at the moment you would feel you had your revenge - okay. But would it help you to heal? I'm not sure I see how that could happen.
Another point would be this. You strike me as a good guy. You have endured a lot, sure, and you are holding onto a lot of bitterness and anger - but that's something else. You really seem to be a good and decent person. Wouldn't the kind of revenge you talk about take a terrible toll from you? I suspect you would eventually see that even in death the perp has won again. That would be a terrible thing to discover.
Just some thoughts Andrew. I hope you can feel that you are appreciated and cared about here.
Much love,
Larry
I'm with Rik on this one. I couldn't send that POS to jail but I could and did bring a civil suit against him and won.
Since the time of the settlement, almost 9 months ago, I've been focusing on other, more important things and don't spend a minute thinking about forgiveness. I'm free now.
What has freed me was putting the responsibility, shame and anxiety at the feet of the one who deserved it all along. People know about this guy now and that's something he'll have to deal with. That will be his punishment. His secret is no more.
I AM FREE!
Regards,
Zipser
Since the time of the settlement, almost 9 months ago, I've been focusing on other, more important things and don't spend a minute thinking about forgiveness. I'm free now.
What has freed me was putting the responsibility, shame and anxiety at the feet of the one who deserved it all along. People know about this guy now and that's something he'll have to deal with. That will be his punishment. His secret is no more.
I AM FREE!
Regards,
Zipser
roadrunner
Registrant
Andrew,
I think I do understand what you are saying and how you feel. I guess I would just stress that you have a child in your future and that child will need his Dad.
Much love,
Larry
I think I do understand what you are saying and how you feel. I guess I would just stress that you have a child in your future and that child will need his Dad.
Much love,
Larry
Let me ask this question to you all at what cost do survivors and victims forgive their abusers? I am not saying forgiveness is a bad thing but why forgive a person if they haven't even apologized for what they made you go thru while a child and what you have had to endure from childhood to adulthood and what we as survivors deal with on a daily basis thanks to what we went thru as someone who lived the worst by no choice of our own doing.
What would you have to say to maybe a new comer to the board that is reading this thread for the very first time that is just starting the process and later on will be addressing "Forgiveness" along their path of healing along with what experiences have you had to deal with along the road to get to the point of forgiveness or to not forgive the abuser?
I am not saying anyone is stupid if they forgive their abuser i am saying the act of forgiving the abuser is stupid opens another can of worms but will not go into that one as i am a silenced voice.
Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member
What would you have to say to maybe a new comer to the board that is reading this thread for the very first time that is just starting the process and later on will be addressing "Forgiveness" along their path of healing along with what experiences have you had to deal with along the road to get to the point of forgiveness or to not forgive the abuser?
I am not saying anyone is stupid if they forgive their abuser i am saying the act of forgiving the abuser is stupid opens another can of worms but will not go into that one as i am a silenced voice.
Edited by Andrew76 - silenced member
Hauser
Registrant
We're all different people and we've all suffered different types of abuse. Forgiving a perp will be a healing move for some of us, for others, it won't.
The only thing that really has given me pause about not forgiving a perp is a religious perspective that was suggested by wojax1. In our discussions on this very same subject, he said that we have to forgive if we want God in our heart, becuause God won't share our hearts with anger, resentment, hatred, desire for revenge, etc.
I had decided to forgive my perps a lonnngggg time ago, but my T suggested that I may have done it too soon, becuase he thinks that I have yet to realize how badly I was hurt. So......I have withdrawn my forgiveness and set it on "pause" for the meantime.
The only thing that really has given me pause about not forgiving a perp is a religious perspective that was suggested by wojax1. In our discussions on this very same subject, he said that we have to forgive if we want God in our heart, becuause God won't share our hearts with anger, resentment, hatred, desire for revenge, etc.
I had decided to forgive my perps a lonnngggg time ago, but my T suggested that I may have done it too soon, becuase he thinks that I have yet to realize how badly I was hurt. So......I have withdrawn my forgiveness and set it on "pause" for the meantime.
roadrunner
Registrant
There is also the question of what we mean by forgiveness. When I think of forgiveness I think of something from myself that I offer to another person as a kind of concession.
Thinking in those terms I don't see me ever forgiving the man who abused me. He's dead, he was a sadist (as my T now tells me), and so far as I know he was an abuser all his life. I know of five other friends of mine whom he also abused, and that must be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Others might think of forgiveness in terms of reconciliation. That's not in the cards for me, because I think of that as a two-way thing and the man who hurt me is dead.
I have also heard of forgiveness being described as somehow telling yourself that you are finished with the abuser and have no more thought for him. Okay, I can see how that would be a good idea, but for me that has nothing to do with forgiveness.
I know there is also the religious take on forgiveness, but to be honest I don't feel that one in my heart. I consider myself to be a religious and spiritual person, but I don't at the same time feel any sense of obligation to forgive a monster who would do such horrific things to children just for the sake of his own gratification. If there is a contradiction here, I am happy to live with it.
Much love,
Larry
Thinking in those terms I don't see me ever forgiving the man who abused me. He's dead, he was a sadist (as my T now tells me), and so far as I know he was an abuser all his life. I know of five other friends of mine whom he also abused, and that must be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Others might think of forgiveness in terms of reconciliation. That's not in the cards for me, because I think of that as a two-way thing and the man who hurt me is dead.
I have also heard of forgiveness being described as somehow telling yourself that you are finished with the abuser and have no more thought for him. Okay, I can see how that would be a good idea, but for me that has nothing to do with forgiveness.
I know there is also the religious take on forgiveness, but to be honest I don't feel that one in my heart. I consider myself to be a religious and spiritual person, but I don't at the same time feel any sense of obligation to forgive a monster who would do such horrific things to children just for the sake of his own gratification. If there is a contradiction here, I am happy to live with it.
Much love,
Larry
I 'forgave' one of my abusers, face to face. It was not taking blame for what he did. It was not telling him, oh it wasn't so bad. It was me telling him 'I survived what you and others did to me, and I am a good person. I am living with it. And you must live with it from the other end. I would much rather be me then you.' No 'I'm sorry I made you do this to me' or shit as that.
Forgiveness was for me, not for him. No, he had not apologized, he probably never will. But to face him, face to face, and say 'well, you gave it your best and I am still here, and I can live with all that you put on me, and still be strong and successful', that was ME taking back power from him. I already said, no one HAS to forgive. And it does not diminish the facts of the past, or that the abuse was worst torture of my life. But what cost? It would cost me much more fear, nightmares, therapy and medicine to NOT done what I did. The 'cost' is different for each person. Please do not say that for someone to do forgiveness is stupid. I am not stupid. And I am much better since I done that, so it must be right for me.
Andrei
andrei what you have done is monumental not stupid ,if you have forgiven then that was the best thing for you to do it takes more courage than i have ,it would be great to leave all the anger behind ,to feel peace ,although i may never forgive i ad mire anyone who can adam
The most important thing as a survivor is how we cope. If we spend our lives full of recriminations and bitterness, then we've failed ourselves. Hatred will consume us and it's wasted emotion. Ideally, in some way, we should turn hatred, despair and conflict into something more positive. I'm not sure how to forgive the seemingly "unforgivable", as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I haven't been able to do it. But I think that somehow keeping that as a kind of personal spiritual goal will help lead me to an inner peace and resolution. Peace, Andrew
Morning Star
Registrant
Andrei,
thank you for sharing your empowering story. And forgiveness for me has been my most empowering tool as it gave me my life back. And only when you have crossed the bridge you know what lies ahead.
thank you for sharing your empowering story. And forgiveness for me has been my most empowering tool as it gave me my life back. And only when you have crossed the bridge you know what lies ahead.
Guys,
I think forgiveness doesn't justify the actions of the perps, and Danny said this. Forgiveness can let me stop feeling much pain, but at the same time I think that the perps will live a life of misery.
I have felt lately that I forgave myself for the fact that I was caught by the abusers' will. Also I try to live my life the best way I can. I think a survivor doesn't necessarily need to "be better" than their abusers in all respects. I wouldn't go to my abusers, showing that I am more succesful and healthy... I'm afraid of that meeting to be, but I also wouldn't say to their faces that I've forgiven all the sh*t. It's not my job, I think.
Thanks for this topic,
Alexey
I think forgiveness doesn't justify the actions of the perps, and Danny said this. Forgiveness can let me stop feeling much pain, but at the same time I think that the perps will live a life of misery.
I have felt lately that I forgave myself for the fact that I was caught by the abusers' will. Also I try to live my life the best way I can. I think a survivor doesn't necessarily need to "be better" than their abusers in all respects. I wouldn't go to my abusers, showing that I am more succesful and healthy... I'm afraid of that meeting to be, but I also wouldn't say to their faces that I've forgiven all the sh*t. It's not my job, I think.
Thanks for this topic,
Alexey