FORGIVE????????

FORGIVE????????
Vitaliy raises a good point. How can one be forgiven if they have shown no desire for it or expressed no remorse?

Perhaps this comes down to a matter of personal interperatation or understanding of the word "forgive"...

Lots of love,

John
 
heh if they gave acting awards for perps,they would all have an oscar, its what they do!its how they get away with it ,remorse wont bring the little girl back ,and no hate wont either ,but damn it its like saying its ok ,but its not!!! maybe her parents just couldnt cope and forgiving was the only thing they could think of to make themselves feel better ,he dont desreve their forgivness.the daughter is dead she aint comming back!!how much did she suffer before she died? when a murderer says im sorry should we just believe it? forgivness is not gonna save me any more than god did. its like we just forget the victim here THEY BEAT HER TO DEATH! that should be the message not that the parents forgave.rehab ? anybody know the nunbers on how many perps reoffend? if even one did then whoever let him out is just as guilty as he is and should be convicted of the same crime.
 
Originally posted by shadowkid:
anybody know the nunbers on how many perps reoffend? if even one did then whoever let him out is just as guilty as he is and should be convicted of the same crime.
I believe Ken Singer has posted them before and there is a small percentage of perps who go on to re-offend. The majority don't. Also, I'm not sure of the US statistics, but in Canada I believe the re-offense rate for all convicts, including perps, is decreasing, mainly due to efforts of groups like the John Howard Society.

At any rate, Reena Virk's parents made their choice. I shared their story to illustrate my point and it is not our place to criticise them for their decision. I don't know if I could forgive someone who killed my child. I hope that I never find out whether I can.

EDIT: Ok I've got the stats for Canada.

From the Solicitor-General of Canada:

"The violent re-conviction rate was 13 per cent and the sexual re-conviction rate ranged from 0.7 per cent to 1.7 per cent."

From Correctional Service Canada (they run the prisons):
"Sexual offenders tend to have relatively low re-offence rates. Among released federal sexual offenders, the average rate of sexual recidivism has been estimated at approximately 5% - 6% and may be even lower."
 
thats 1.7 out of how many 10000? im not a math person but is that 100 lives shattered ?100 more kids destroyed ,too many dude way too many ,perps should get life just like murder ,my way its 0.0 reoffend,your way there is always that one or two that are gonna slip through the cracks , whats the price to find out? maybe my kid someday ,i dont wanna take that chance do you? im not critcising them at all just trying to understand their decision . also something else that plays heavily into this ,where do you think they sent the kids that killed her? do you think they will end up in some adult prison? like they should? no they wont they will be in a detention center till they are 18 and then most likly be released ,would you want to be the roomate of that kid? say your just a wild kid maybe 13 years old and get busted for oh shit say joyriding in somebody's car? never really been i trouble before ,but you wake up on day and your roommate is a murderer,and you know why hes there cause if you killed your a big shit . do you know what it feels like when they turn the lights out? would it bother you if he sits on his bed all day drawing pictures of stick people with heads and limbs cut off? but he flushes his art when anybody comes acts so remorsefull and they say what progress he has made!re hab my ass!!
 
If I was checking statistics for re-offence rates for sex offenders, I would be a little more specific and check the rates for paedophiles. I believe that the figures in the UK are much higher than that, maybe someone knows?

Best wishes ...Rik
 
That's a very good point Rick. The numbers I quoted are general, the majority of which will be rapists. And I am a bit suspicious of the figures myself, since none of the studies I found gave the time period for the study. I'm trying to find a good long-term study on recidivism for child molesters specifically. I'll post whatever I find.
 
Brothers,

This topic started off about forgiveness and it is sort of going into topic about perps and stats.

I know that info about perps and re-offending stats is a good topic, maybe the can be started as a new post.

Just Thoughts
 
Good point. The discussion on re-offending came up on MS before so no need to re-hash it here.
 
I would never forgive. We never asked for any of this to happen to us. They are the monsters and have ruined our lives. Only now we are starting to rebuild all that they have taken away from us.

Everyday I feel so full of anger and hatred and I find it hard to let go and feel "human" again.

If I was in control I would hang all these evil people and let it be a lesson to others.
Duncan
 
some things cannot be forgiven ,the hurt goes to deep.
 
To all who have responded...I thank you for all of your thoughts and expressions to my posting.....it helps me feel that I actually "belong" somewhere on this earth. And by this I mean with you. Not a bad group to be connected with and to in my opinion.
I wish you all the best in the New Year.....uncontionallly with love....Steve
 
OOPS..... I forgot the most important thing....how I feel.....The reality is that I feel that my voice is actually being heard and responded to. Thank You all so much.....Steve
 
Steve,

This place is what it is because of people like you who have the courage to post a question such as the one at the beginning of this thread. People who are willing to take us to places within ourselves where we've been afraid to go, or would rather not go.

Thanks.

Lots of love,

John
 
One definition of forgive I found was to stop feeling resentful or angry towards someone for an offence or mistake. Suffice to say, offences is most probably putting very mildly the stuff that has happened to us.

I think sometimes it seems very binary that either we have forgiven or we are forever doomed to wear this albatross of poisoning hate, anger, and bitter resentment around our necks as a noose choking us from all the goodness that life may have to offer. I personally feel that sometimes we may get upset or worried about others because we may feel thay are not even allowing the chance for some kind of transformation to happen with their relationship to all the negative feelings they may have towards the perps and what was done to them by these perps' hands. I think if we allow for the possibility of healing, something does eventually happen to all of that. Is it always something as profound as to spark forgiveness? I don't think so but something I have never been able to adequately define does seem to happen.

You certainly can't call it "acceptance" Some might call it "coming to terms with it" but even that is not quite it, it sounds too resolving.
It could be a dulling of pain except that something could occur to make just as sharp as it ever was all over again. Something does happen though that could lead to forgiving but something worthwhile nontheless, even if that forgiving never takes place.

I have to think about how we may have hurt others unintentionally throughout the process of dealing with all this ^&%*$#* and if by asking for possible forgiveness from those folks, are we being hypocritical by not giving the same towards the perps. My gut feelings say no way, but sometimes I DO get a little uneasy over this seeming contradiction at first glance.

Oh well, something for me to think about some more
 
Originally posted by Jay Bee:
You certainly can't call it "acceptance" Some might call it "coming to terms with it" but even that is not quite it, it sounds too resolving.
It could be a dulling of pain except that something could occur to make just as sharp as it ever was all over again. Something does happen though that could lead to forgiving but something worthwhile nontheless, even if that forgiving never takes place.
Jay Bee,

This is troubling me as well. I have chosen to call this feeling "recovery" because I feel that I have recovered something of my earlier life, but even that is the wrong word because I am a different person now than I was then. Perhaps "emergence" is the right word. The person that was hiding behind all the hate and pain and fear comes out from behind that wall and starts to get on with things. I agree, it is a difficult phase to define.

I have to think about how we may have hurt others unintentionally throughout the process of dealing with all this ^&%*$#* and if by asking for possible forgiveness from those folks, are we being hypocritical by not giving the same towards the perps. My gut feelings say no way, but sometimes I DO get a little uneasy over this seeming contradiction at first glance.
In the past, I intentionally hurt people. I think most CSA survivors do hurt people, although some are still afraid or unwilling to admit that they have done it.(look in the Friends and Family forum for evidence of this)

Abuse breeds abusers. I acted out my abuse in 100 different ways. Yes, the pain and anger from my abuse may have been part of my reasoning, but I was the one who made the decision to hurt people. I was also the one who made the decision to stop hurting people.

Some therapists don't teach this reasoning. They will happily tell us that nothing we did was our fault; we are blameless because we were abused as children. I call bullshit on that. If we use the same rationale on perps, then the perps are not guilty of their crimes because they were abused as children.

Being abused didn't take away our powers to reason or make decisions. If we make the decision to hurt someone else, then we are at fault. And I think that until survivors come to this realisation, they will be cursed to forever relive their abuse by abusing other people.

This is what is at the core of my belief in forgiveness. I know that I have hurt a lot of people. One look at my address book and all the names of friends who no longer speak to me will confirm that. I have seen the pain that I have caused and it tears me apart. I am aware of the damage I have caused myself. But I also understand that I am the architect of this pain. Yes, my abuse formed the foundation, but I am the one who chose to hurt other people. Once I came to this understanding, I began to understand my actions.

If I went back to the people I hurt and explained that I hurt them but it wasn't my fault because I was abused, they will thank me and then forever shut me out of their lives. Excuses mean jack squat. Those people don't care why I hurt them, they only care that I hurt them. So I began to ask people for their forgiveness. It worked. Not perfectly; because in some cases I had caused a lot of damage, but by and large, when I asked people for forgiveness, it worked. Asking forgiveness started a dialogue with the people I have hurt.

That was the beginning. The next step was to look at myself and accept that I have been very self-destructive. I was killing myself with guilt; guilt from the abuse and the emotional manipulation by my perp, guilt for the damage that I have done others, and guilt over the damage I have caused myself. So I let go of the guilt. I forgave myself for all the self-hate and doubt and shame. It didn't ease all the guilt. I still feel terrible about what I have done to other people; but it has helped a lot with my own peace of mind.

Forgiving my perp was the logical step from all this. In my own self-searching, I realised that I was capable of reclaiming my own innocence. Nothing had been taken away from me that I had not given up. So, I finally accepted the fact that I was capable of redeeming myself, of "reclaiming my innocence." I am still in the process of this redemption. It has taken me to places that I never imagined were possible. But during the first stages of this journey I forgave my perp.

The decision was not easy. The last thing I wanted to do was forgive him, because I thought that by forgiving him I was saying that what he did to me was acceptable. However, someone much wiser than me taught me the truth of forgiveness. Forgiving is not excusing. My perp will answer for his crimes. Forgiving is simply acknowledging that perps can also find redemption. It can happen. It does happen. I know this is true, because I found redemption myself when I finally accepted my own abuse of others.

And to go back to your second point, Jay Bee, I felt the same contradiction. I was being a hypocrite when I found myself asking for forgiveness when I harboured anger and hate against others. When I forgave my perp, I didn't expect anything to happen. And for a long time, nothing did. But then, eventually, I felt a growing sense of peace. I began to let go of my anger and hate, and I found that when I did this, it became easier for me to beg other people for their forgiveness.

One final note. I did not make this journey alone. It took a long time, and I had a lot of help, mainly from guys on Malesurvivor but also from a lot of gifted others, including my wife, my therapist, the lead detective on my case (a man truly called to his vocation), several priests and ministers, and a few people who will remain nameless. There are people in this world who teach Truth. Call them teachers, spiritual guides, therapists or ministers, they are dedicated to helping. My advice is "seek them out." Or call for help and they will seek you out. But if you do anything in the new year, find one of these people.

You won't be sorry.

Peace.
 
I think there is rightous act and self-rightous act

rightous acts=good we do to help others,with no motive of pay back

self-rightous=look what IIII did..i am better than other..I deserve this or that
 
forgiving my abusers was nearly impossible.
it took me until the age of 50 to even want to.
forgiving my abusers was one of the most difficult things i have ever done in my entire life.
it was also one of the best things that ever happened to me.

you can read about it here: warning triggers!
https://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=61546&Number=432551#Post432551

i have done more healing since that day, than in all the years previous.
 
Victor:

You speak words of wisdom. Forgiveness is what allows us to move on. It is more important to do it for us, than for the abuser.

I learned this lesson from a dear friend who suffered a very grave injustice. He suffered a lot as a consequence of very evil actions on the part of a group of people. Yet, he told me one day, that he felt he needed to forgive to move on. That if he did not forgive he would be mired, forever,in the hatred for what happened to him.

That was more than thirty five years ago. He moved on and has accomplished more in his life, since, than he ever dreamed he could have.

It's not easy, though.
 
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re: schindler's list clip you posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK-AFHdD7Vw

can you imagine if the penalties for murder were suspended or abolished?
the earth's population would drop overnight.
we are talking total world war.
not many people would exercise the power of forgiveness,
if they possessed the power to execute others.

i know that i would have probably killed or been killed by now.

so, since killing people is forbidden, by church and state, we are faced with three choices.
1. breakin' the laws!
2. impotent rage of unrealized revenge fantasies.
3. forgiveness.

if you can think of another option, please post it here.
 
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