FORGIVE????????

FORGIVE????????
Originally posted by bec:
is it true that the healthiest place to be is where you have forgiven your perp(s) for all the ways they betrayed you?
Click to expand...
yes
 
This topic comes up every few months, and every time it does the temperature starts rising in the thread to the point where at times there's been angry words flying back and forth.

What's up with that guys? I know what I think about it, but I sure am not going to get angry at my brothers here who feel differently on the subject.

Each of us are in a different place on the road of recovery and some of our roads will never be the same as the other guy's.

Actually, this time around it's been rather mild. Let's keep it that way guys! Let's discuss this topic, share our ideas on it with the idea of providing food for thought for those who are questioning themselves regarding forgiveness. Let's not let it make us angry at our brother.

Lots of love,

John
 
I dont have to forgive myself as I did nothing wrong, as far as my abusers are concerned there is no forgiveness, its my anger and the positive things I do with it that keeps me going.....note I said positive things and in a lot of ways it was my anger that kept me alive.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
Originally posted by Kirk Wayne:
its my anger and the positive things I do with it that keeps me going.....note I said positive things and in a lot of ways it was my anger that kept me alive.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, I can't think of any way that anger can generate something positive, but if you have achieved something positive with your anger, then I invite you to please share it. I may be wrong.
 
There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'. WHen we see injustice or oppression, it should make us angry and move us to respond to change things. My problem is that I see injustice and oppression and I want to run away and put my head in the sand. This is where I SHOULD be angry and am not.
 
Originally posted by Koveri:
There is such a thing as 'righteous anger'.
Click to expand...
Certainly. Someone who is truly righteous has every right to use anger. However, I challenge you to find a truly righteous person. Righteousness implies perfect judgement, and I'm pretty sure that there is nobody on this planet who is capable of perfect judgement.

Since we are neither righteous nor perfect, what right, then, do we have to be angry? "Righteous" anger implies a judgment; that you become angry with another person because they have failed you, or done wrong to you, according to your standards of judgement. Fine.

The problem is, nobody is perfect, and for sure you, and me, and everyone else on earth, have either failed someone else or done wrong to someone else. Are those other people entitled to be angry at us for failing them or wronging them? If they are, and they act on their anger and hurt us, what has been gained? How does such a system of retribution and revenge create anything other than further conflict and hatred?

So I'll repeat my question. Someone, please illustrate to me a completely positive change that has come from someone acting in anger. Who among you has found peace by taking their anger out on another person?

Peace.

Nobby
 
Kirk,

I'm gonna agree with you on this one. I suppose my agreement is colored by my own interpretation, but here's how I see it.

My anger really did keep me going. Perhaps it even kept me alive long enough to begin the recovery process. Now I'm faced with putting new perspective on the issue of anger and it's place in my life. Not sure I've got that all ironed out yet, but I'm working on it.

Thanks for your post. It's given me food for thought.

Lots of love,

John
 
Forgiveness is supposed to be an act of grace - you willfully give up a claim to something for the sake of the greater good, or peace, or closure. How can anybody "willfully give up" something that they can never possibly receive anyway? The concept is without meaning. What was taken from me cannot be given back, nor is there some "equivalent" that could serve as compensation. In order to "forgive" my perpetrators, I would have to pretend they owe me something in the first place.
 
Nobbynobs

It is all to do with attitude and focusing, in the past my anger was a very self destructive force when angered I would invaribly end up drinking and wrecking havoc on those about me or I would self harm, today after a lot of hard work in anger management courses I have re-channeled my anger into doing something positive within the survivors community by that I mean getting involved in politics as that is the only way things are going to change by making those who weald the power aware of the damage CSA can do to the individual and therfore society in general, by nature I am a bone idle sod and it is my positive anger that helps me get up in the morning to try and instigate some change,you could also use the word determination in the same breath as anger ...... of seeing things through to the end regardless of what people think or do and there are plenty out there that will try to stop us from changing things, espcially thhose who are known as the OSC (the Online Sex Offender Community).

Hope this goes some way to answering your query.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
Thanks Kirk, yes we dont forgive, we forgive ourselves before we totally destroy ourselves.

Ive shook off a lot of the 24/7 guilt trip and anger trail by finding positives.
I still lapse at times, but tend to get back again.

I am a load stronger because of my past, even though I would just rather not be.
Dont ever forget the power of your own minds in overcoming this shit,

ste
 
Originally posted by Kirk Wayne:
I have re-channeled my anger into doing something positive within the survivors community by that I mean getting involved in politics as that is the only way things are going to change by making those who weald the power aware of the damage CSA can do to the individual and therfore society in general,
Click to expand...
Granted. And I think that's a positive thing. More comments on this below.

by nature I am a bone idle sod and it is my positive anger that helps me get up in the morning to try and instigate some change,you could also use the word determination in the same breath as anger .....
Click to expand...
I would never use the word determination in the same breath as anger, however, I think the word "steadfastness" is a better description of what you are describing.

of seeing things through to the end regardless of what people think or do and there are plenty out there that will try to stop us from changing things, espcially thhose who are known as the OSC (the Online Sex Offender Community).
Click to expand...
OSC is also the Ontario Seed Company. Beautiful flowers. But what you are describing above is steadfastness, like I said. It's a good trait to have.

Hope this goes some way to answering your query.
Click to expand...
It does, and thanks.

Here are my thoughts. In the first section that I quoted, you mention that you are working for change. Which I think is really what is at the heart of the discussion that you and I are having. What is the change that you are working to make? Is it revenge on perps, or is it to foster the development of a society where perps aren't created in the first place? Or, let me put this question to you another way; would you prefer revenge, or would you prefer working to ensure that no other boy is assaulted?

My goal is that I don't want anyone to ever feel the pain of abuse again. I don't want anyone to ever feel the horror and destruction that I lived through. And I don't care if they are perps or not, nobody deserves that kind of pain.

From that foundation, therefore, I am working for changes in society that ensure that children are treated with respect and dignity. Only by ending the horrible mistreatment of children will we ever prevent child abuse. And ending child abuse means responding to perps, and to society, with love. To mistreat perps or advocate harsh punishments does nothing more than perpetuate the cycle of abuse, because it robs them of hope. When you rob someone of hope, you put them at risk of falling into evil.

That doesn't mean that I advocate letting active perps go free. I don't. They are a danger to themselves and others, and society needs to be protected from them. This is the job for the authorities and for advocacy. And I have seen your advocacy work, it is good work and I think you have done a lot to help society and the authorities understand the danger that untreated perps represent.

I guess what I am really asking you; is what is your ultimate goal? (And I mean apart from raising awareness about Jonathan King, at which I personally feel you have succeeded admirably.) Is it your ultimate goal to see Jonathan King and other perps pay, or is it your ultimate goal to ensure that no other child suffers from rape and the pain and desolation that it causes?

If your answer is the second one, then do you still need your anger? Will anger keep children safe, or prevent abused boys from turning into rapists? I think you know the answer to that question. Love is the only way to peace.

Kirk I'll completely drop the gloves here and ask you this. What gives you the most satisfaction: seeing the fear in JK's eyes when you confronted him, or hearing me say that you have given me hope because you were brave enough to come forward with your story in the first place? Which gift gives you more hope, or convinces you of the existence of love? And if you know that your advocacy work is bringing hope to other survivors, then why do you need your hate and anger? You are creating hope in the hearts of men who are lost to despair and hopelessness. Isn't that motivation enough?

Love

Nobby
 
Nobby

Good post.

What gives me the most satisfaction?

Easily answered hearing you say that you now have hope obviously. I have to say you have me stumped on the last paragraph nobby especially the "why do you need your hate and anger".

Maybe i am still distancing myself from people by saying that I am angry in as much as "dont get to close or I'm gonna hurt you" maybe I am just scared of dropping the shield completely. I really dont know...

Regards

Kirk
"Lerts grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
I've been there, my friend.

Search your heart. I think you will find the answer there.
 
I have two close survivor friends. One, he have four different abusers, and he forgive 2 of them. Other, he have abuse in family and out of it, and not forgived anyone. I respect them both equal. The one who have not forgive, he is not at all less then the other person, and he is not 'angry' or 'hating' person. But he is not going to go to his parents, or the other person who abuse him, and say, 'oh, it is ok, I am over it'. That is nothing negative against him, in my thoughts.

I had also abuse in my family, and outside of it. One my abusers, he is just monster. He is in prison, he murdered several other boys in very bad ways. I have not forgive him, I have not forgive my parents. To me, in how I think, for me to forgive them, I must understand why it is they done such things to me. Never I can understand that, and so I think, never I can forgive it. I am not person of hate and anger. My life is not further damage just because of my choice. And that, it is what it is, it is now my choice.

VN
 
great post visha ,its good to see you and i agree with you totaly adam
 
Steven,

Very provocative subject so thanks for posting. I first read this a couple of days ago and thought about how to respond. It's taken awhile but here's where I am on the subject.

I have not found it necessary to forgive the man who sexually abused me. While I do have a written apology (filtered first by his lawyer as part of the out of court settlement) he never asked forgiveness and even if he did I don't think I would grant it. Honestly, I have not spent much time thinking about the subject, even in the quiet moments.

As for forgiving myself I've found that that, too, has not been necessary. I did nothing wrong all those (40) years ago and I view myself as nothing other than a victim of a sexual predator.

What I'm finding as I peel back the layers of who I am is behaviors and attitudes that can be tied back to my going into survival mode when the abuse began. Example? Today I'm not very assertive and in the business world that has been a hinderance. Like most victims I withdrew into myself and did not want to be noticed or recognized for fear that someone would "know" by looking at me. I'm working on changing that.

Each of us is on a path to recovery that must be traveled alone. I've found tremendous support from everyone here and for that I'm eternally grateful but when it comes right down to it the steps we take are our own.

Just one man's opinion. Thanks to all who have responded. Good topic.

Regards,

Paul
 
Originally posted by jacobtk:
Why not?
Click to expand...
Honestly, I do not know. Sometimes things hurt too much and there just is no way to get past that.
Click to expand...
Jacob where is your signature from? Seems to me that the answer is there. Overcoming pain is sometimes as simple (note I don't say easy) as identifying and understanding the cause and then taking steps to reduce the pain. Not easy, but possible, with determination. For me, the key was forgiveness.
 
Originally posted by jacobtk:
But if he does not feel he needs to and if the hurt that was caused is too great, then forgiveness does not make sense and it may do more harm than good.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to work through this line. Are you saying that it's possible to forgive too soon? I would definitely agree. Forgiveness is a part of healing, but it definitely has its place and time. Forgiving too early may lead the victim into self-blame, which is not a positive step in healing. However, there will be a time during healing when I feel that forgiveness makes complete sense. It's an individual thing, not a blanket "ok, it's been 3 months, now you must forgive" thing. IT comes in its own time.


I mean, it is for our benefit, so if it does not benefit us why do it?
Click to expand...
Because forgiving allows you to do two things: 1) it helps survivors put their abuse into the larger context of life, and 2) it helps survivors come to terms with their own need to be forgiven. It's as I said earlier. We have all hurt other people, and in order to get on with life, we need to make peace with the people we have hurt, i.e., we need to ask them for their forgiveness.

Forgiveness comes naturally to children. It is only by being hurt that they begin to stop forgiving others. It is a natural human trait. By forgiving, you release yourself to begin coming to terms with your own actions and any wrongs you may have done others. It restores love and harmony to human relationships. And the reason why I found forgiving my perp to be so liberating, and such an integral part of my healing, is because it has freed me to begin to make peace with the people I have hurt. How can I ask those people to forgive me, if I myself have not forgiven others?

I think you will find that forgiveness makes perfect sense, if you think of it in terms of the greater good. But it has to happen in its own time, when the survivor is ready. Its like I said to Kirk, do you feel better bringing hope, or causing pain? And if forgiveness brings hope to the world, then what use is hate and anger, which only destroys hope?
 
It will be a cold day in Hell the day that I forgive the SOB that raped me .
There is a place reserved in Hell for people that do thease terrable things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top