FORGIVE????????

FORGIVE????????
S

Steven Heath

Registrant
This is a question I have have for anyone who wishes to respond. I have been here for almost a year. And so many time I have heard that some of us have forgiven their abuser. That this is some level of success in healing. I doubt that I will ever forgive my abuser. He was a monster and deserves no level of "forgiveness" from me. For my healing of mental and social health. My feeling is that this is not a twelve step program we must follow to find health or Nirvana. This may sound likle it is born out of aner.....because I am angry. I sit in the chatroom and talk to others....feeling for them......loving them unconditionally because I know them and what they are feeling without ever meeting them face to face. We are damaged humans because someone with no feelings for our response to their actions......hurt us deeply. If forgiving them for their actions is part of healing....please someone explain this concept to me.
 
If you dont forgive you suffer more than you do if you do forgive.

Forgive yourself,

ste
 
Steve, much of how a person is able to forgive his perp depends on how it effected him as a victim.

I'm not ready to elaborate (in depth) about how it effected me except to say that I saw that dark side that he (my perp) embraced, and I did not. I was there, I was at one of those moments, a moment that was exactly just like the one he made when he victimized me so long ago now. I know exactly why he did it so it's much easier for me to forgive something that I comprehend.

Also, my perp was a manipulator, not the monsterously evil, threatening type of perp. Hence, I don't have the nightmares, the flashbacks, the shakes, the panick atacks, etc., which are common traits here. If I had to deal with THOSE kinds of effects of CSA, I would not so readily forgive him.

Another thing to consider before forgiving a perp is this: Don't forgive until you realize just how bad he hurt you. It IS possible to forgive to soon.

And I just thought of this in closing: Just becuase you forgive him doesn't mean that you have to like him, it means that you're trying to have love in your heart instead of hate. Hate is a very heavy thing for me to carry around, I dropped that a long time ago.
 
Steven,

you do not forgive the abuser for their benefit (what they done to you was extemely wrong - they deserve no forgiveness for their benefit) - you do it only for your benefit - forgiveness is not about the abuser - it is about you... - to release yourself of some of the anger/fear/guilt/shame/embarrassment/ect... - the release of the deep feelings that we been carrying within us for so long - feelings that have robbed us of so much in life...

my abusers want no level of forgiveness from me - they have made that perfectly clear... - my trying to forgive them is something that I only do for myself - not for them...

as Hauser said - carrying hate around with us for so many years has wasted so much energy that we could use for other (better) things in life...

I do hope that you are able to forgive - but it has to be something you do for YOU - and you need to do it when you feel ready to - and forgiveness is not even something that happens instantly when we are ready - it does take time...

Take good care of yourself,

TJ jeff
 
Steve...I am on hiatus from the Discussion Board, but I've attached a post that I wrote on forgiveness a while ago. I hope it helps you with your struggle.

Take care,

Nobby
--------------------

Forgiveness

Forgiveness is accepting the fact that your perp is human. Simple as that. To do otherwise is selfish and will lead to hate. Hate leads to self-destruction. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but this is what I believe to be the truth.

Let me ask these questions; if you ever got the opportunity to take revenge on your perp and you did something to harm him, what would you become? Do you think the police would be justified for arresting you for assault (which they would surely do) and a judge for having you sentenced? Do you think that taking revenge would in any way change what was done to you?

I get frustrated with this mentality that perps "owe" us something. They don't owe us anything. They chose an evil path, and we were their victims, but that's where it ends. All matters of justice are for the courts to determine. Our perps' salvation is a matter between them and God. There may be some reparation due to us for damages, but again, that is a matter for the courts. There is simply no debt that must be discharged between our perps and ourselves.

Now, for those of you who are still with me and not furiously writing me a nasty email or reply to this post, here is the truth of the matter. Perps are human beings, and human beings are prone to failure and making mistakes. Some fail in terrible ways and do great evil, such as raping children.

I know how deeply it hurts to be betrayed, believe me, I know. I was raped by a man who held me as a newborn. But what you simply have to accept, before you will truly heal, is that your perp was innocent once, and he has the potential to be rehabilitated back to normal life. The administrators of this site will tell you many stories of perps who have been rehabilitated. By not forgiving them, we are refusing to accept that our perps can be redeemed. Now I'm not saying that it is our responsibility to heal our perps; what I'm saying is that our forgiveness has nothing to do with our perps. Forgiveness is accepting that they are human, just like everyone else. It is accepting that people can fail, and do evil things, and it is also accepting that they can be brought back to good.

I have forgiven my perp. This does not mean that I will stop working with the police to have him brought to justice, nor does it mean that I will ever go out for beers with him. What it does mean is that I accept that he is human. He will answer for his crimes, but that is a matter between him and the Courts. He may decide that he has done horrible things and he needs help, and he can go hire a therapist for that. By forgiving him, I am healing myself from the only true damage that my perp did to me; that is I am finally understanding and accepting what it means to be human.

Please take care and understand that this post was written out of love, and that I am not trying to hurt any of you. I just wanted to share my healing experience with you, in the hopes that some of you might be able to find something in it that helps with your own healing.

Love

Nobby
 
Thanks for all of you thoughts guys. It causes me to pause my anger and think. That is all I can do for now. But a pause in the anger is like a vacation.
Thanks again,
Steve
 
I find it hard to express what I feel about forgivness.
I am conflicted about it.

I would suggest reading "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu

I think it would give you some insight in to health ways to think and feel about your enemies.
 
Who? Walks around with constant guilt.
I do, you do.

Whose life is in total despair, ours not theirs.

I could probably post 50 lines and not stop, but dont let their hurt turn to anger in you.
Forgive = one thing, and that is, dont blame yourself.

You have to move on from the constant inner battle at something you cannot get to.
Bit like scratching a sore, you could never reach, your mind!

That is forgiveness to me, to know that they will get their own judgement one day, and pay for it another,

ste
 
Steven - if anyone that has been groomed / attacked /abused by a paedophile wishes to waste energy on forgiving them, that is their choice.

It is however not mine and never will be!

I appreciate that everyone has their own opinion on this matter, and I take no offence at those stated above.

If I said that I forgave the paedophile that has screwed up so much of my life, it would be a total lie. I don't believe that I will suffer more by not forgiving - I much prefer to forgive myself, because I am worth it, he is not!

Why should I forgive someone who I took to court earlier this year for events that took place in 1969. Why should I forgive someone that when confonted by the police with my complaints in 2004, denied those complaints? Why should I forgive someone that first groomed and abused me in 1969, then perpetuated that abuse in 2004 by refusing to admit his crimes? Why should I forgive someone who made me wait another 17 months before achieving a poor substitute for justice in the courts? Why should I forgive someone who groomed and abused others both before and after myself? Why should I forgive someone who was still showing signs of the same behaviour 35 years after he abused me?

Forgive him? No way in hell! I'd much rather spend my time and energy supporting others that require it?

I am waiting for the day that the bastard dies - I will go to his funeral just to make sure he is dead! I will tell anyone that asks me why I am there.

I don't carry hate around with me all the time - I'm not some fermenting pit of sulphorous revenge. If the paedophile that abused me is human??? Why did he show myself and many others no humanity? I understand that some will wish to forgive an abuser, but a mistake is 'a one off situation' that you learn from! Like when you are a child, and you get stung by a nettle - you don't go looking for more nettles to sting you again. If a paedophile abuses only once, and realises that what they did is wrong and seeks atonement for that act, then maybe it is forgiveable! If a paedophile has a 'modus operandi', and sytematically grooms / abuses / attacks children. then it is not forgiveness they deserve. I believe that they have stolen the lives of many children, and should subsequently be denied the right to a life themselves!

So sorry, I am from the flog them and hang them brigade! I make no apology for that!

By the way - the courts do not deliver 'real justice' in the UK. They are too politically correct at the moment, and certainly have little understanding of the damage done by paedophiles!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Rick, please dont get angry at my post, it was not meant to hurt.
If you read it properly, it says forgive yourself!

I think I had the same reaction to the topic heading.

Right?,

ste
 
Ste - I wasn't angry at your post at all! Don't ever think that.. if you note, my post was only 2 minutes behind yours, and I'm not that fast at typing/thinking.

You make many very valid comments here, and I value them all!

I only get angry when someone tells me I must forgive James Fowler. I am more concerned about helping the other 3000+ people here, than I will ever be about forgiving the convicted paedophile: James Fowler!

I know that you meant 'forgive yourself', because we have both commented on similar posts in the past!

I just can't grasp this "forgive or you go to hell concept". To me, hell is a place on earth - it's a place I only live part-time now, rather than full time, like I did not so long ago!

Ste - you are one of the good guys - don't ever forget that. When you read my words here, you cannot see me speak them, but I will not ever criticise your opinions. Sometimes I am quite forthright with my own views, but it doesn't make them any more valid than the others posted above!

I also get very frustrated with the god/religion thing - it does nothing for me, but I know it means so much to others! I don't know who's right on that score (but I don't want any preaching).

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Steven,

I'd say that forgiveness of the person who abused you is something that should be left up to you entirely. You can ask other's opinions, even appreciate their input, but do not forgive unless it is something that you feel you need to do. No one's opinion in this matters except your own.

There have been things said on both sides of the discussion in response to your post, and there are good points made for the approach each takes. In the end however, the decision on what to do is up to you so it needs to be done for you. Not the perp, not your T, not me or Nobby or Rick or anyone else. YOU. If you need it, then do it and don't look back. If you don't need it, then don't.

The only other thing I'd add is that you may want to revisit this issue from time to time throughout your life too see if there is more work that needs to be done on the issue.

Good luck, Bro, and many hugs.

Lots of love,

John
 
Rik, Yeah, HELL on Earth.

No abuser escapes the hell he faces when he dies, preaching aside.
I guess God saved me on a few occaions, so guess he must want me here.

I guess in my lifetime I must have forgiven so many sins against me, you too,

ste

otherwise we go round the bend!
 
Steven, I'm going back into my shell now, but if my post reached you in any way I am glad. I'm with John (walkingsouth). Trust your heart. It won't steer you wrong. Your path to peace is your own and nobody can tell you what is right for you.

If you need/want to chat further, I can be reached by PM (usually...if my box full just stick a note up in the members' forum and I'll go clean it out).

Love

Nobby
 
every place i go i hear it;s not your fault ,then in the same breath i hear we have to forgive ourselves? if its not our fault then what do we have to forgive ourselves for? i totaly agree with rick,i have said before to forgive anything i need to understand why it was done in the first place,i have to say oh ok thats why ,there is a logical explanation for what happened and in some way i was partly to blame,there is no explanation for abuse ,there is no logical excuse for abuse. there was a member here that helped me with this issue,through this person i learned that the anger and hate do not have to eat us up ,we can direct that anger and hate into something constructive ,tracking down and exposing perps ,finding their sick web pages and blogs and forcing them off the internet,why this line of thinking is never mentioned here is a mystery to me. to me if we dont admit that we feel anger and hate for our perps we are in denial,of our own feelings .as always i can only speak for myself ,but yes i hate that bastard ,and only the fact that i am a better human being than he was keeps me from making sure he never sees another sunrise. perps can not be changed ,no amount of forgivness is gonna make them human ,if i forgive him then i'm still falling for his bullshit ,hes still in control. my forgivness is the only thing i can deny him without killing him ,i wont waste one minute trying to understand or forgive him. as for rehab for perps? nothing could be a bigger waste of time and money, tax money ,how ironic the very people that get abused are expected to pay to rehab the people that hurt them. my perp went to prison ,got therapy and counciling,got 3 meals a day and a place to sleep all paid for by people just like us ,also while he was getting help i was abandoned by a justice system that spends money on rehab ,but throws the victim into a life of hell in foster care or detention ,each night as he slept in his prison bed i wandered the streets alone and abandoned,in mortal danger ,i had no bed i had no food and i had no rehab for the destruction he caused in my life . after 7 years and who knows how many thousands of dollars spent to help him ,he got out and started screwing with me again ,he sent me copies of videos that he made of my abuse ,which in the end helped put him back in prison when he was caught having sex with a 15 year old boy. now who would have benifitted by my forgiving him ? my forgivness is not what he wanted ,my 11 year old body and soul would have been the price i paid for forgivness.as rick said flog them and hang them !!! adam
 
I have neaver ben able to find a way to forgive the SOB that raped me either , So you are not alone in the way that you feel
 
I have no idea what I think of forgiveness in regard in my own recovery. I do however feel a lot of pressure from people to 'get over it', and see it from a 'higher plain.' I am sure such things are valid and perhaps on their way but they are not where I am at right now.
I agree with whoever said follow your heart.
There are times when I feel compassion for the truly fucked-up and pathetic man my father and step-father are. How broken there lives are to this day and how pathetic and infantile they are.
And then there are days when when I wake up gagging with anger, boiling in my throat and I know that it -- my anger -- needs to be seen and not swept under the rug because it might make other people unhappy. Also, this anger which at first I denied and perhaps pretended to be over, has come back to haunt me again and again as I have had no other outlet for it but myself.
Its a tough journey and I don't think there is a definite answer. I know that today I have to put myself first and not perpetuate self-abuse. I know that my father has his own path and gets the grand prize of living in his own hell (he is a visibly tortured and unhappy schizo) and I have the chance to heal myself and find peace.
I am not there yet. But I have the chance.
I get to feal and sort out my shit because I have acknowledged. I think that is where the self-forgiveness comes in. Forgiving the things we have done to survive, or the things we have done to hurt ourselves out of not knowing any better. That I can handle. That I can deserve.
Him, them . . . They can deal with themselves. Right now that is the only justice I get.
Cheers, J
 
I hope one of my abusers is in Hell, but I dont know for certain.
The cops never arrested anyone for it, and he could still be living, old but living.

My other abuser is my brother who mentally abused me all my life, and sent my father to an early grave.

He thinks he is number one, and thinks of only himself, he tries to just walk over anyone in his way.

Funny thing is, not many like him, even at work, yet myself and other brother are very popular.

Work it out, its not rocket science,

ste
 
hello men:

this is a topic i have discussed with my psychologist a bit lately. i feel like i am not ready to forgive my mother or father, like i have not gotten to that place yet. father abandoned and didnt protect me. mother incested me. i hold strong anger and hurt and distrust toward both of them, i.e. today is my father's birthday and i have no plans to contact him and i mailed him no card.

is it true that the healthiest place to be is where you have forgiven your perp(s) for all the ways they betrayed you? if it is, i just am not there yet. maybe one day i will be.

let's be kind and gentle with ourselves men. sincerely,


bec
 
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