For our Brit friends

For our Brit friends
Ste -

Quote "but you must have agreed to the plea bargaining off his counsel"!

What plea bargaining? Again, I am absoultely as unaware of any plea bargaining that may have taken place as the man on the moon?

If anyone told me that plea bargaining had taken place, I can assure you all hell would be let loose! That is just further abuse by the judiciary, and no one would have got my permission for that I can assure you.

I don't understand how I can have had so little involvement in a case that only ever existed, because I complained to the police! They identified that there was a serious problem, both due to listening to my initial complaint, and then taking out a recognition exercise in 2004! They were so concerned in 2004 after taking out the recognition exercise, that they wanted my full statement immediately! In court 'there is no evidence of any crime being committed after 1977' (mine was 1969). BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT and again as many times as you like!

I've mentioned before, that if historical crimes receive historical sentences, then someone in our country should be getting hung pretty soon! Hanging may be abolished, but if hanging was the sentence for the crime when it was committed, then that would be the sentence now! Spot the precedent! The law disappears up its own ****, and cannot even defend itself! I may be a common layman, but I can spot all these injustices that educated idiots seem to have such a problem with!

The only way that the judiciary and government ever seem to wake up to reality, is when that reality strikes close to home! Hence, recently an MP that was burgled decides that we should all be entitled to keep tazer guns in our homes!

The sort of human rights that I disagree with, are 'creatures' serving life sentences for crimes against humanity, that are given libraries in their cells, given private gymnasiums, given free porn. Given a right to a private / family life. Given a right to go unhindered. Given all of those rights when they have denied others those rights. Yes there are aspects of the human rights laws that protect those that need protection, but I am sure you must be aware of the money that is made by lawyers in this country protecting (using those human rights laws) those that deserve less than zero protection. Rights are one thing, but no rights without responsibility!


Best wishes ...Rik
 
Kirk,

firstly, we should not be driven by the media, hysteria that is kicked up and kicked down our throats day in day out.

Then we get the public baying for blood from the Government that has done nothing positive about perps for as long as I can remember.

Knee jerk reaction is not the way to go, I have tossed this around in my head for so long, and cannot really come up with anything suitable to help kids tell.

Politicians are not going to come up with an answer, they cause the hysteria in the first place, and now they are caught up in something they cannot crawl out of.

Rik, your case totally baffled me, the plea bargain is done by him admitting to guilt, and not have to put a jury through a trial.

But he did put the plaintiffs through hurt by subsequent denials in the court.
In Liverpool he would have almost certainly gone down.

A judge cannot see inside you, he doesnt and cannot share your hurt on the matter.
He would rather think, Oh! These guys should have got over it by now.

Maybe, you could start by teaching them, what it really is like to be a victim of historic abuse.
You should also tell them that abusers never just stop doing it at a certain time or age.

Then we come to the sexist element which tells us that boys dont get hurt!
Demand a debriefing off that barrister, and ask him why he did not feel that an appeal was in order.

Those are some of the questions I would be asking, but anyhow you have wounded the perp pretty bad,

ste
 
Ste

With all due respect if it was not for the media we would not know the extent of CSA in the UK, remember the seventies? CSA did not happen and very rarely was it reported. If we were at this point (with it being seriously discussed by the powers that be) during those dark days of denial by the authorities would we not be further down the road as what to do with sexual predators?

"Then we get the public baying for blood from the Government that has done nothing positive about perps for as long as I can remember".

Completely agree and it is through the public pressure brought about by the tabloids that the government appear (a big word that) to be doing something .... and that has got to be better than doing nothing. Do you really think single lobbying would spur our leaders into action? I very much doubt it somehow.

As to plea bargaining of course it does go on, my abuser Randall held his hand up to a more recent assault (under the advice from his defence team) to stop me getting into the witness box and by my evidence linking him with King, Denning, the Walton Hop et al. He got five years on the SOR and a 300 fine and still no justice for me by not being able to tell the world in open court what this pervert did to me.

Kirk

"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
Kirk,

all the media are doing is spurring the Government to put a small plaster on a pretty much cancerous growth.

You talk earlier about being able to spot the signs, so can I, and everyone in this place.
The ones who matter eg, parents, teachers, doctors would not have a clue.

Social workers who find it, have nowhere to send the kid for help, nor do doctors.
When abuse is reported, a kid or even adult, should be assessed by a specialist team and given the right treatment.

Dont blame the judges too harshly, they are given guidelines by the Government on sentencing, unless you havent paid your taxes, which is an automatic jail sentence.

Colin Inglis would still be covered up, if not for our friend who demanded his head.
He was reported in teh Mail as a councillor, not head of police authority as I remember.

He was the one who blew up the pedo ring operating in Yorkshire schools if I remember rightly.
Now he is pleading Not Guilty, at Leeds CC, not Hull where he lives.

You know his background only too well, and I am watching this baby pretty closely, and will be very interested in how well the media publish his 'real' background.

Keep track on that one,

ste
 
Ste

"Social workers who find it, have nowhere to send the kid for help, nor do doctors.
When abuse is reported, a kid or even adult, should be assessed by a specialist team and given the right treatment."

Absoloutly and that is why I am going to push this subject as hard as I can at this meeting next week, there are people in government who really do understand the problem, Professor Catherine Itzin who is heading the VVAPP is a survivor herself. These are the people in the background beavering away for positive change and that positive change has been powered by the publics response to the tabloids, if it was not for the tabloids our politician would be even more removed from "Real Life" than they already are. as my local MP said to me when I met with him just before christmas I quote "I did not realise how problematic CSA was". I then asked him if we was aware of any MPs that had suffered CSA in their childhood, his repose to that was "I doubt very much if they would talk about that" "exactly" I replied and then it hit him like a ton of bricks ...... a moment of supreme enlightenment

Colin Inglis, yes I am watching how this progresses.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
Kirk,

if you can get anything positive, that is the main point that help is there at source.
That alone would save many kids turning into criminals or worse.

They are training 750 CBT therapists, but it will take 7 years to train them, a small step into the future, but necessary.

I have just posted an interesting article on Inglis in news.
Significantly, this has been covered up by those, high up in the police force, maybe even as far as ministerial level.

This perv would not be on trial without Phoenix demanding a trial.
How? can we trust a Government that goes on covering up organised pedo rings???

Thats my 0.02 cents,

ste
 
Becuase no doubt there are paedophiles within the Westminster Village, thats why Blair slamed D notices on one minsiter and one ex minister that were caught up in Operation Ore. There are thousands that work within government around Westminster just by the law of averages there must be some perps in there somewhere. They are in every other walk of life why not politics.

Looking and reading about Counsellor Inglis gives me the creeps.

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
Inglis is still on trial tomorrow, I wish I could take the coach to just stare at it, in the box.

That would be something for him to remember.

Perps go for high up jobs, because they can be protected from the top.
How about a public enquiry into yet another coverup by authorities.

How can you or I trust a Government that continually hides them right the way down the ranks.

The biggest cover up, is us, the ones who have been through it, with NO help!

I await the media response to this little pile of sh*t,

ste
 
Ste - you are right, a judge cannot see inside of me!

What I can say is that the Witness protection Officers, CPS, The Honorary Judical Recorder, The Trial Judge, The Attorney Generals Office, several cronies of the Judiciary that answered my letters because the Judiciary didn't have the guts to do so themselves, and several additional members of the police force know exactly how I feel! As you can see, I am no longer the type to keep quiet - reamaining silent did me no favours whatsoever!

I tried to educate every single one of the above, that perps do not stop! They were obviously so ashamed that a common ignoramus such as myself told them that the perp was still using the same modus operandi in 2004 (they didn't have to look far for that information, as it was right in front of them), whilst they were claiming 'no proof of any further crimes since 1977. I shamed them by stating that The Prosecution had already claimed 'similar behavior' in court, in January, thus allowing a 3rd witness statement to be used as evidence!

That's why I received very poor responses to my letters, because they could not answer any of my questions, neither could they fault my observations! By pointing out the facts of the case, I basically (politely) told them that they were rubbish at there jobs!

I have zero respect for the Judiciary (including the Attorney General), and there is little that they can now do to change my view.

Kirk - make sure when you go to the WAPP meeting next week, you tell it how it is! Don't let anyone try to shut you up! Hope you make good progress!

Best wishes ....Rik
 
Rik,

you can pay for a copy of the minutes of the court case, and maybe between three, it would be worth having.

Ask the court officer to give you the address of whoever does the court minutes.

Obviously from what you say, the court had not taken into account his recent behaviour, and may for some reason found it unproved.

The CPS should be on the cartoon network, the biggest f*cker uppers on this planet.
Time and time again they get chided by judges over ludicrous cases they put before the judiciary.

They should have their own internet site for us to laugh at the things they get up to.

We were all hurt by this lack of sentence, not just you guys.
It should be compulsory for all agencies to visit this site for a week.

Not many would walk so easily after that, providing they could stomach it.

Just a note on the AG, I asked him to review sentencing on Denning, on the grounds that he was a known perp who had until recently been head of a pedo ring.

Not a chance, he still upheld teh decision of four years for historic abuse.
But, no doubt they will be keeping a close watch on him when he gets out.

One final note, a 29yo from Bolton, has just been jailed for life indefinitely .
He was identified by a tattoo, on an abuse video circulating on the net.

What a catch,

ste
 
Ste - I already have the adress for the summative minutes and could reasonably pay the 70 expected cost. I just believe that there are better things I can do with the money.

I am still collecting toys for deprived kids for Christmas! I am buying something every month! I think that I am better off spending money on that, because it will actually do some good!

I'll keep hammering away at the media, because that is the best way I can vent at present!

Maybe someday in the future I'll end up on Richard & Judy...they would probably listen! They've done quite well with their book club, by getting people interested in reading (another suggestion for the Authors on this site). Maybe they would get the public interested in the realities of abuse. Maybe that would put more pressure on the judicial process!

I know that I am a fighter now (maybe I always was). I've fought a few battles, I just need to realise what my strategy is going forward. If I am to be forever bogged down by this, then I will not have won. There's an arena out there just waiting to be used.. it's just getting the right admission ticket to get in there and get the ball rolling!

As children, we deserved so much more! Somehow, we need to ensure that the next generation does not suffer as we have!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Rik,

I know its too late now, but if you had me there, I would have taken it up with the appropriate authorites, and believe me, I know how to write letters that they cannot deny.

I lost one court case in the many that I did, but expected that outcome.
You must also have the strength to find the best way forward to keep yr mind safe.

If you pay the 70 it may be worth it, maybe not, but you certainly might regret it.
I too give the kids a teddy at Christmas, what a cool thing to do.

ste
 
Rik,

I know I seem like some armchair barrister sometimes, I am just me, and how I think, and how I wouuld present a case before a judge.

Sadly, for you and friends, it was possible to give him a light sentence for his deeds.
The CPS got it wrong yet again, silly old them.

Sadly, you could not have applied for the judges directions, something you may think about!
They will be in the court documents if you specifically apply as plaintiff to the defendent, that you require the sentencing options, as to the said court Judge.

Hey! I am totally mystefied by the judicial outcome of this case.
I cannot even for the life of me, wonder just how a boys life is thrown away like nothing happen.

Judges cannot tell what you went thru' nobody can, but you tell the judge the truth in how he hurt you?

Did you put those mitigating cirmumstances into the prosecution? I guess not.
You should have been given that opportunity on disclore before the trial began.

If you can give the judge a case on how it has affected you over all yr life, he is ore likely to impose a sentence fitting to the crime.

How many of us could scream out at a judge and asy, hey, you never even been there, but I have.
And if you fancy a one-way trip thru Hell, then go ahead.

Sorry for the rant,

ste
 
As you both know I am attending a meeting next week at the Department of Health. Could i ask you is there anything specific you would like me to ask or put forward? I will be taking along some of the postings from you both (and any other brits frequenting this message board) on this board if that is agreeable to each of you.

I am not taking part in this just for my benefit but for those that are to unfortunately follow, so thinking caps on guys and let me have your comments either on here or by PM.

Cheers

Kirk
"Lets grab this bull by the horns and swing it about a bit"
 
Kirk - you can use any post that I have ever made here!

I hope you received the return copy of the questionnaire & that it was some good!

What I would request that you raise, is the total inability of anyone in the Judiciary, Health Organisations, Charitable Organisations, CPS etc to realise the real impact that paedophiles have! I have mentioned some of these issues in the questionnaire!

1/ Doctors - after walking into my doctor's surgery in the midst of a breakdown, a - he did not even realise that I was having a breakdown. b - he was totally out of his depth in knowing how to react when I told him why I was there (events from 34 years previous). c - he asked me if I was OK after talking to him for 5 minutes (oh yes I'll just go and top myself thanks, I feel wonderful). d - psychological support is practically none existant. I was offered referal to a Clinical Psychologist & waited 3 months for an appointment to come through, 6 further months for the actual appointment! How many people die on these waiting lists because they cannot cope? I was saved by my employer - most employers would probably just sack someone in a similar state to what I was.

It may be the department of health, but surely there must be some influence on the rest of government & therefore the judiciary. What needs to happen when an abuse survivor comes forward, and makes a statement, is that they should receive frequent updates about what is happening.

They should be made aware of relevant local support services / help groups, or at least told there aren't any.

Witness Support (police) - I was allocated an officer that was supposed to keep me informed of case developments. He went sick. They replaced him with someone else. He went sick. Got a third one that was reasonably OK. Most of the time (15 months) leading up to the actual first day in court, I had to ring Detectives and other contacts within the police that I made myself, to get any sort of update. I was going mental, and hardly anyone was telling me what was happening!


I received more communication from members of the police force that were not directly dealing with the case, than I did from anyone else. They were actually concerned about me, and really glad that I had found the courage to come forward and nail the pervert.

The CPS never contacted me before the first day in court! I consider that to be like going into war with a rifle that haas never been tested - how did they know I would not backfire on them.

I never got to speak to the prosecution barrister before, during or after the case - why not?
I was just a statistic to the judicial system! Once they had my statement no one directly asked me for my opinions of what should happen in court.

I was just a statistic during the wholly inaccurate summing up! It was so atrocious that there were more wrongly stated facts during the summing up.

There should be a written national policy that dictates exactly what communication should take place between Complainant / Witness / Protection / CPS and Prosecution Barrister. This should be written out in a formal document, and presented to the complainant at the time of making a statement. That would alleviate a lot of fear of the unknown for the complainant. The complainant and Witness Protection should review the document at e.g. monthly intervals. If you want witnesses to come forward, if you really want to extinguish paedophiles, then you must support the complaiants. They are raising statements regarding events that are the last taboo in society - it is not easy to do so!

Best wishes...Rik

*PS - any suggestions for burning off a few mega watts of energy?

Mitigating circumstances that are stated in court, are not mitigating circumstances. The judge did not state if he had taken into account, so called mitigating circumstances, which included:

*My parents are dead.
*I may loose my housing association home if I go to prison.
*I would suffer without my medication.
None of the above is a mitigating circumstance and the judge should have said so.

The Judge should loose his job for allowing the Defence Barrister to say: 'He's an elderly gentleman answering for indiscretions from long ago!' without challenging the statement. This is the main reason that I now have more problems in my mind than before I went to court. This is why I am devloping social phobia, because I trusted the whole process when I took this to court. Instead of being rewarded fro that trust, I now know that I was not abused by a multiple grooming, multiple abusing paedophile, it was just some indiscretions that a gentleman shared with me! I don't know whre my mind will end up with this one, because the more I try to forget it, the more I try to convince myself it's only words, the more I know that I was totally failed by the official system. Tell me what message does that send out to Survivors? Do you really want people to seek their own justice! I would not condemn anyone for doing so!
Please take my comments, and if they have any specific questions they would like to ask me, I will answer any that I consider relevant.

The main thing they need to know is that I was let down as a kid. The kid thought he had found a voice. The people that he thought had ears didn't really! The kid is still angry,because the People in Authority didn't really listen to him after all - just another form of abuse again in court! What did he really expect? How does that kid now how vent his anger as he cannot take out on others, so the adrenalin just builds and builds! Will it eventually drive him completely mad?
 
Bit of a hiccup with cut & paste there, but the content is all there!
 
I just wish that I could really believe that someone that represented either side, or even the 'independant judge' in that courtroom had actually read my statement and fully understood it!

I really wish that my biggest fear had come true, and that I had been forced to appear in the witnesss box. That would at least have given me the opportunity to say exactly what abuse had taken place, and what impact it had! The perv pleaded guilty at the last moment (first day of trial...late afternoon...we were there from 09:30 am) because the judge was going to allow a 3rd persons evidence to be used to show 'similar behaviour'. The perv did not want to have the details 'argued' in court. I was openly sobbing on my way out of court, and all the way home, because the bastard had finally admitted what he had done!

I can't tell you what relief I felt at this point.... it was like all my doubts, all my worries had been justified. It took a couple of days (well about 9/10), and I actually started to feel good...something I hadn't felt for a very long time!

We went back to court a couple of weeks later to hear what the sentence would be! Proceedings were slow again that day, and I was in the witness house again (as I had been on the original trial date). Rumour came across that the perv was trying to withdraw his plea! I couldn't believe it (no I'm not Victor Meldrew). We finally got the bastard in front of the Judge at around 17:15 (the judge worked back). The judge came out with some comment that declared the pervs request for a plea withdrawal as invalid. Again, I felt some sort of elation...but it wasn't a high, because we had to go back to court again (the Judge didn't want to make a quick decision on the sentence, because he needed time to think and achieve the correct result! I sat there for 7 hours and 15 minutes, not knowing if it was over (similar to the first day...if you haven't been there, you don't know what that feels like), believing that it was going to trial after thinking it was over on the first day in court. Was the bastard torturing me or what? Could the judiciary see that? Did they ****ing care? No they did not - 'Mr Fowler' you did plead guilty! Maybe you did then you tried to withdraw that plea - why should you be given any consideration for a guilty plea?????

What a ****ing joke! If that is the best the judge can come up with after thinking about it...he wants to stop thinking....armed with another brain cell, he'd be completely dangerous!

Sorry if this sounds like a rant again. If you met me in reality, I am the most easy going person on the planet, but paedophiles just make my teeth want to rip!


The Perv
To know what the bastard had done, people would have had to read my statement (9 pages of A4 when typed...many more in the original hand written version. A4 usually averages around 300-350 words per page when typed...standard font / typical vocabulary.
 
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