failure of being a man
failure of being a man
- Thread starterfhorns
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johnsurvived
Registrant
fhorns,
Yes, I rather suspect we all of us could. One of the joys of my recovery thus far has been making amazing headway in countering this entirely unrealistic self-perception. Perhaps you could share some of the ways this theme has touched your life? And what it is you are hoping to hear from others?
John
Yes, I rather suspect we all of us could. One of the joys of my recovery thus far has been making amazing headway in countering this entirely unrealistic self-perception. Perhaps you could share some of the ways this theme has touched your life? And what it is you are hoping to hear from others?
John
can anyone describe what being a man really is? if it is being a macho asshole who only cares about looking strong and who feels nothing then i am a total failure.if it means having doubts and fears being unable to relate to the men around you ,not even wanting to be a man or even male,if it means doing the right thing even when it hurts much more than doing what is expected of me . if it means wanting to help and be helped ,to be honest enough to admit my faults and being able to acccept what abuse has done to me as something i have to change. if it means feeling so out of place with my own kind ,then i guess i am a man . adam
roadrunner
Registrant
Brothers,
I'm glad this topic has arisen, because I think ALL of us have at some point felt that we are failures - not just failures, but failures AS MEN.
But what could that mean - to be a failure as a man? My guess is that we feel that somehow our claim to be "masculine" has been devalidated by abuse. When we are in that mode it's the shame of abuse talking; we fail to understand, and BELIEVE (which is more important), that abuse is about the victimization of a frightened and confused child who CANNOT defend himself and who is NOT responsible for figuring out escape strategies and so on. When we feel that we are "failures as men", it's in a way the ultimate statement of worthlessness and negative esteem that we carry with us from childhood.
So are we failures "as men"? Of course not. If I can't find a job, am I a "failure as a man"? Not unless manhood is about interview skills. If I cannot perform sexually or am confused sexually, am I a "failure as a man"? Not unless manhood is about sex. And so on.
My take on this is that the "failure as a man" feeling is just that: a FEELING. It's an expression of shame and low self-esteem. It's a signal that all the issues bothering us have reached the point that we are making some pretty grim judgments about ourselves. But if I FEEL that I am a failure as a man, that does not amount to facts on the ground.
Why not? Well, let me look at the rest of my life. What have I done outside of my abuse experiences? Maybe I learned a useful trade or otherwise became capable of supporting myself. Maybe I went to college and developed skills along those lines. If I have problems, I still also have values that are meaningful to me. I may have a wife and children. I may have a relationship that is important to me. I may contribute to the community in various ways. Maybe I am an artist, a musician, a poet, a skilled craftsman, or whatever. The list of things that NEGATE my feeling of failure is probably quite long.
I think what we need to do is see this "failure as a man" feeling as a useful and healthy signal that we are getting things out of perspective. We need a rethink, a talk with a safe confidant, a discussion with the T. The feeling is just a flag telling us, hey, we're getting the picture wrong, time to refocus!
Adam throws out a real challenge: what does it mean, then, to be a "real man". I have an answer, and maybe others will differ and have other ideas. Let's hear them!
A "real man" is a guy who is absolutely honest with himself about who he is, what he needs, and what his dreams are. He then asks how this will allow him to relate to other people fairly, respectfully, and honorably, bearing in mind that others also have needs and dreams that are not less important than his. His feeling of "honor" is in turn based on his effort to set his social, ethical and moral boundaries in a way that is fair to everyone. He stands by these boundaries and standards regardless of the pressures and temptations he encounters, but remains willing to reconsider his position if it seems he is wrong. He admits his frailty and imperfection, while expecting others to do the same. His victory as a man is not measured in triumph over others, but in his ability to live in peace and fulfillment with others who are also fulfilled and at peace.
I know what the objection will be. What will the difference between a "real man" and a "real woman"? My answer: nothing in principle. All of us, men and women, will define our needs, dreams and boundaries in various ways, based on gender differences, our sexuality, ethnic background, social position, and so on. This variety is what makes human existence such a rich and exciting experience.
Adam, your post banged on my cage here! Thanks for getting me thinking on this anew. I would love to know what your reply is.
Much love,
Larry
I'm glad this topic has arisen, because I think ALL of us have at some point felt that we are failures - not just failures, but failures AS MEN.
But what could that mean - to be a failure as a man? My guess is that we feel that somehow our claim to be "masculine" has been devalidated by abuse. When we are in that mode it's the shame of abuse talking; we fail to understand, and BELIEVE (which is more important), that abuse is about the victimization of a frightened and confused child who CANNOT defend himself and who is NOT responsible for figuring out escape strategies and so on. When we feel that we are "failures as men", it's in a way the ultimate statement of worthlessness and negative esteem that we carry with us from childhood.
So are we failures "as men"? Of course not. If I can't find a job, am I a "failure as a man"? Not unless manhood is about interview skills. If I cannot perform sexually or am confused sexually, am I a "failure as a man"? Not unless manhood is about sex. And so on.
My take on this is that the "failure as a man" feeling is just that: a FEELING. It's an expression of shame and low self-esteem. It's a signal that all the issues bothering us have reached the point that we are making some pretty grim judgments about ourselves. But if I FEEL that I am a failure as a man, that does not amount to facts on the ground.
Why not? Well, let me look at the rest of my life. What have I done outside of my abuse experiences? Maybe I learned a useful trade or otherwise became capable of supporting myself. Maybe I went to college and developed skills along those lines. If I have problems, I still also have values that are meaningful to me. I may have a wife and children. I may have a relationship that is important to me. I may contribute to the community in various ways. Maybe I am an artist, a musician, a poet, a skilled craftsman, or whatever. The list of things that NEGATE my feeling of failure is probably quite long.
I think what we need to do is see this "failure as a man" feeling as a useful and healthy signal that we are getting things out of perspective. We need a rethink, a talk with a safe confidant, a discussion with the T. The feeling is just a flag telling us, hey, we're getting the picture wrong, time to refocus!
Adam throws out a real challenge: what does it mean, then, to be a "real man". I have an answer, and maybe others will differ and have other ideas. Let's hear them!
A "real man" is a guy who is absolutely honest with himself about who he is, what he needs, and what his dreams are. He then asks how this will allow him to relate to other people fairly, respectfully, and honorably, bearing in mind that others also have needs and dreams that are not less important than his. His feeling of "honor" is in turn based on his effort to set his social, ethical and moral boundaries in a way that is fair to everyone. He stands by these boundaries and standards regardless of the pressures and temptations he encounters, but remains willing to reconsider his position if it seems he is wrong. He admits his frailty and imperfection, while expecting others to do the same. His victory as a man is not measured in triumph over others, but in his ability to live in peace and fulfillment with others who are also fulfilled and at peace.
I know what the objection will be. What will the difference between a "real man" and a "real woman"? My answer: nothing in principle. All of us, men and women, will define our needs, dreams and boundaries in various ways, based on gender differences, our sexuality, ethnic background, social position, and so on. This variety is what makes human existence such a rich and exciting experience.
Adam, your post banged on my cage here! Thanks for getting me thinking on this anew. I would love to know what your reply is.
Much love,
Larry
larry i agree with much of what you said ,but it's hard to say exactly what i think a man is ,it's like i have one definition ,the one that society says is a man ,he is hard and cold never cries or even shows emotion ,he must be in charge at all times ,if he is not in control he will take that control physicaly .he is self centered and demanding ,he uses his own shortcommings as a reason to abuse ,he will take what he wants even if that means destroying a child in the process.then there is what i think a man should be ,someone who is not ashamed or afraid to be human ,who can feel for others ,who puts others before himself ,who says this is who i am like it or not ,he is a protector of those younger or weaker than him self,who sees peoples weaknesses and tries to help not exploit them . a man is that guy down the block who works overtime so his kid can have a new bike ,who is interested in his kids lives and is in touch enough to notice changes in his kids .i also believe that age has nothing to do with manhood ,there are teens here who are more of a man than most of the guys i know .they have courage and compassion ,and have seen life from the other side, where most adult males never go these kids have lived ,being a man means being able to say i been hurt ,hurt so bad but i will get over it somehow even if that means telling everyone in the world what happened .even if the shame is overwhelming ,even if everyones knows my terrible secret.if by telling it one person is helped . adam
roadrunner
Registrant
Adam,
Well said! I knew you would have a lot to say on this. Can I just make one comment? You say this:
A man is someone who does all those things bro.
Much love,
Larry
Well said! I knew you would have a lot to say on this. Can I just make one comment? You say this:
My reply is that we agree 100%. You are giving examples that lend substance to the ideas I sketched out only in very general terms.
A man is someone who does all those things bro.
Much love,
Larry
In short, a "man" is someone that knows how to love.
John
John
johnsurvived
Registrant
I would add that a "man" is someone who knows how to love despite knowing that to love is to be vulnerable.
That's good, John. Thanks for that addition.
We are men who are not failures because we are still alive despite being horribly abused.
We are real men that come to this site to seek help for what has happened to us. No one twisted our arms to seek support here.
We come here to bleed and have 50 other guys help wrap our wounds and hold us close until the danger is over.
That is what real men do for each other.
No one who comes here is a failure.
Good Thread. H.I
We are real men that come to this site to seek help for what has happened to us. No one twisted our arms to seek support here.
We come here to bleed and have 50 other guys help wrap our wounds and hold us close until the danger is over.
That is what real men do for each other.
No one who comes here is a failure.
Good Thread. H.I
russ-milwaukee
Registrant
Hello everyone:
Well this thread has double meaning for me. First, I've never felt like a man -- even though I definitely look like one. They stole my innocence and I've felt trapped in a boy's confusion for most of my life. I"m only beginning to come out of that with the help of a great T. This past two weeks I've been in a very down period. Repetition compulsion, nightmares, etc. I look in the mirror and I don't see a man. I see the body of my brother, the body of my cousin -- the genes are in me. It is what I see in the mirror -- I look like them and I don't want to. I look at myself and I see the face of my abusers. I see the body of my rapist. I don't want to be that man. That is issue one for me.
Second, my wife had cancer and we cannot have children. Thus, the part of my life that would have PROVED that I was a man was also taken from me. Ouch. Double-whammy. My T and I are also working on this loss -- the grief of being father material without father possibilities. I know adoption is out there, but for me it isn't the same. I wanted to give my son the life I didn't have. I don't get that chance now.
Being a man is tough. That much is certain. The expectations, the stereotypes, the machismo.
Russ
Milwaukee, WI.
Well this thread has double meaning for me. First, I've never felt like a man -- even though I definitely look like one. They stole my innocence and I've felt trapped in a boy's confusion for most of my life. I"m only beginning to come out of that with the help of a great T. This past two weeks I've been in a very down period. Repetition compulsion, nightmares, etc. I look in the mirror and I don't see a man. I see the body of my brother, the body of my cousin -- the genes are in me. It is what I see in the mirror -- I look like them and I don't want to. I look at myself and I see the face of my abusers. I see the body of my rapist. I don't want to be that man. That is issue one for me.
Second, my wife had cancer and we cannot have children. Thus, the part of my life that would have PROVED that I was a man was also taken from me. Ouch. Double-whammy. My T and I are also working on this loss -- the grief of being father material without father possibilities. I know adoption is out there, but for me it isn't the same. I wanted to give my son the life I didn't have. I don't get that chance now.
Being a man is tough. That much is certain. The expectations, the stereotypes, the machismo.
Russ
Milwaukee, WI.
Morning Star
Registrant
FAILURE. yes, I feel like one, but only when I want to be a success and if I drop this need to be so, I AM FREE.
roadrunner
Registrant
John and John,
The idea of a man being someone who is willing to love and accept love even though he knows the potential cost - that's one I find especially moving. It's something I try to aim for and I think just having that as a goal has helped me a lot.
Much love,
Larry
The idea of a man being someone who is willing to love and accept love even though he knows the potential cost - that's one I find especially moving. It's something I try to aim for and I think just having that as a goal has helped me a lot.
Much love,
Larry
Morning Star
Registrant
Courage to follow our goal is that makes life worthwhile, and when we want to love, life becomes all the more exciting and fulfilling, as there is no more horizons to conquer than the follies of human heart. And that is when love reaches its zenith when it strives to become unconditional.
Morning Star
Registrant
...that way the only failure in life would be, failure to love.
What is a man?
A human being with the right set of genitals.
For me, being a man is about how I conduct myself in everyday life, how I deal with problems and the prejudice I get for being a victim of CSA.
Machismo, manhood and machoness is in the eye of the beholder and as such is like beauty, is only skin deep.
In my humble opinion of course.
However, my issues with masculinity come from not being able to control my sexual function. Sometimes I cant get or keep an erection. This has only ever happened when I go with a new partner, usually before I disclose......
Does that make me any less of a man??
I dont know.
A human being with the right set of genitals.
For me, being a man is about how I conduct myself in everyday life, how I deal with problems and the prejudice I get for being a victim of CSA.
Machismo, manhood and machoness is in the eye of the beholder and as such is like beauty, is only skin deep.
In my humble opinion of course.
However, my issues with masculinity come from not being able to control my sexual function. Sometimes I cant get or keep an erection. This has only ever happened when I go with a new partner, usually before I disclose......
Does that make me any less of a man??
I dont know.
I will feel like a man when I feel whole. I see the fractured and broken pieces and am trying to put them together. But I know I am forgetting that brokenness is something all people share and we are all striving for wholeness.
So maybe my thoughts of being a man are distorted, something unattainable, and I forget to recognize that in my brokenness I really have become a man. It's just that I have a hard time seeing it sometimes.
So maybe my thoughts of being a man are distorted, something unattainable, and I forget to recognize that in my brokenness I really have become a man. It's just that I have a hard time seeing it sometimes.
roadrunner
Registrant
JapanZen,
I guess if you define manhood in terms of sexual function, then failure to get or keep an erection would be a sign of failure.
I would just wonder if sexual function is a measure of manhood. If so, then am I more of a man if I have been with lots of sexual partners over the years? Somehow that doesn't work for me.
Sex is of course important, but does it have moral or ethical value to it? I'm not sure sex itself has anything to do with that, although sure, the decisions we MAKE about sex are full of ethical and moral implications.
Just some thoughts.
Much love,
Larry
I guess if you define manhood in terms of sexual function, then failure to get or keep an erection would be a sign of failure.
I would just wonder if sexual function is a measure of manhood. If so, then am I more of a man if I have been with lots of sexual partners over the years? Somehow that doesn't work for me.
Sex is of course important, but does it have moral or ethical value to it? I'm not sure sex itself has anything to do with that, although sure, the decisions we MAKE about sex are full of ethical and moral implications.
Just some thoughts.
Much love,
Larry
roadrunner
Registrant
Scooter,
Much love,
Larry
I would agree, and I think you illustrate really well the problem I raise when I talk about "failure as a man" as a FEELING that doesn't necessarily reflect the real facts. "I'm a failure as a man" gets to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, since once we have that on our dance-card we no longer SEE our real achievements and victories, the very things that would prove that the feeling is false.
Much love,
Larry