Exciting insight for me - denial is OK

Exciting insight for me - denial is OK
F

forlauren

Registrant
For weeks Ive been tormenting myself, wanting my husband to see his father and his actions exactly as I do unconscionable, inexcusable, and criminal. I had a brilliant conversation with my mother last night. She pointed out to me that every persons recovery has to happen at their own pace. When you try to shove someones face in it, it could cause them to regress or worse, completely fall apart. My husband is an incredibly unselfish caretaker and provider for this family. Ive read of so many men on these boards who have completely lost the ability to care for their families when confronting the realities of their abuse. If my husband still needs to try to minimize the pain of seeing his dad for what he really is for now, Ive decided Im okay with that. Hes continuing in therapy, and one of my friends here, An, has suggested a male therapist down the line might be a really good idea since he never had a positive male role model and I think thats sound advice. Ill encourage him to stay with therapy. Maybe it wont be until five years down the line or something that Dannys able to face the truth, and thats okay because I need him to be the strong, loving husband and father that he is.

To SAR, I think you are a very young person who is not familiar with the covenant of marriage. A marriage is almost like a third party in a relationship and it has to be protected. I have a brother who drinks too much. Say my husband decided to call the authorities without my permission to say My wifes brother is a drunk and is a danger to others because he could be driving while intoxicated. That would be a terrible betrayal. Of COURSE Id need my husbands permission to report about his dad. Its not like hes my boyfriend, thats a totally different thing.

I am still seeking answers and options. As an attorney, my sister is a mandated reporter. Of course our therapist is a mandated reporter. Something WILL happen, but not at the expense of my husbands mental health, and not at the expense of our marriage or our childrens futures.
 
Ok.

Let's be VERY VERY careful about:

(1) making assumptions about the lives, ethics, & moral standards of others who are courageous, honest, & loving enough to visit here with the rest of us

(2) trying to impose our own concepts of what is "moral" or "covenental" upon others who may not see things the same way we do

(3) allowing our standards to change when we are dealing with those close to us vs. those who are merely acquaintences. (If we are truly LOVING people, we will try to be LOVING PEOPLE. PERIOD.)

As "someone" once said: (& I paraphrase) it is necessary to think VERY carefully about what we post in public. Remarks that could be mis-interpreted as judgmental of others need to be read, re-read, read again BEFORE we post them. We are fortunate enough (or maybe we're not so fortunate - given the reason we all come here) to be a VERY diverse community. We have people here from ALL walks of life with MANY diferent experiences & points of view.

We need to respect our differences.

Out purpose here is to SUPPORT each other, comfort each other & offer what insights we can. We need to be careful that our remarks do not bring negativity into this Sacred Space. This is not to say that we shouldn't caution someone who is (1) doing harm to themself (2) involved in an obviously abusive relationship (3) is inadvertently and yet with very GOOD intentions, posting triggering items without including a warning. BUT BUT BUT!!!! ANYthing that could seen even REMOTELY critical must be expressed with COMPASSION & concern. Don't we have enough of the opposite in our lives already????

Peace.

K54
 
forlauren

I'm glad denial is okay for you. It surely is important for each of us to be okay with ourselves.

I'm sorry if you were hurt by my words or you felt my answers were simplistic and angry. I was not trying to suggest that you should ignore your husband's mental health. I was responding to something a bit different in your post-- specifically to my feeling that your sister's situation was more symbolic than real to you. When I asked you why it was so important for your husband to report it and not you, I was trying to say that there must be something more for you going on than just this girl's situation-- like maybe your wish to see your husband confront his dad-- because if it was only about this girl, you wouldn't keep asking a forum of sexual abuse survivors if they *really* think you should report the sexual abuse of a minor.

Honestly, that does anger me. I think it is a bit insensitive to come into a group of people who were forced to live in shame and secrecy for years and continue speaking about how you will most likely do nothing for a victim.

I am young, but please don't assume that my relationship with my boyfriend is somehow inferior to your marriage. We have lived together for eight years and are raising our two children. We do and deal with everything that a married couple deals with--homemaking, finances, in-laws, etc. Our reasons for not being married have nothing to do with the quality and strength of our bond.
 
I would postulate many of the women here are quite bright and capable. Ive noticed many others, like myself, have obsessed over their partners course of rehabilitation and have felt as I have desperate for confrontation of abusers and closure to painful situations. I finally came to a place of peace, where I can respect my husband and his own path. Its easy for me to see how that could annoy people.

SAR, intially, you tried to be sympathetic about my situation. You once replied to me:

your husband has just disclosed to you about what happened to him. He might see it as a betrayal of trust if you used that information in any way that he was not comfortable with. How does he feel about you talking to your mom and his father? Have you always been concerned about his sister, or is this a new thing since you found out about his abuse? If it is new, your husband might feel that your desire to get someone involved is really about him and his abuse, or about revenge for what has happened in your own life.

You have said that I keep on posting about if I should report or not. This is simply not true. I have tried to be as sensitive as possible about upsetting people or making them worry about something so painful. The very first day I posted, I had JUST learned of my husbands abuse. Im not experienced in this arena. I immediately jumped to the conclusion my husband could be a pedophile, and I immediately worried about his little sister. This was OCTOBER 12. It is now THREE MONTHS LATER. I havent brought up the reporting topic since. To say that I see this little girl as symbolic is bizarre to me. She is a real human being, with a life that has value. I come to these boards because Ive been confused and scared, and everyone continues to dismiss the fact that my father-in-law is a dangerous criminal who might well retaliate against me or my children in some way.

I would guess maybe some people have unresolved guilt of their own. What about the perps youve known in your own lives? Have you made absolute sure they were behind bars (or dead, because we all know perps dont serve long enough sentences)?

I am a rape survivor. It happened when I was 19. It nearly destroyed my mental health, but I faced him in court and sent him to prison. He died in a car accident a few years later, high on drugs. I persisted with therapy and taking care of myself mentally and physically, today I am totally free from the ocd and ptsd I suffered for years.

SAR, you also said Im glad denial is OK for you. It sounded sarcastic. I was not talking about myself, but about the path my husband is currently on. I finally realized his course of therapy and re-education could take a very long time and that pushing him and fighting him all along the way simply wont help. Hes definitely proven to me hes not the monster his father is.
 
I work with a fellow who is around 62 years old. He is obviously, but not quite overtly, gay. He is the frequent caretaker for his adolescent nephews. We cannot discuss the Michael Jackson child molestation case at work because this man becomes outraged at the slightest suggestion that Michael might actually be a pedophile.

I believe that there is a possibility that he may be a danger to his young nephews. As his supervisor, knowing him to be emotionally unbalanced, is it my responsibility to report my suspicions to the authorities?

Of course not! It would be a gross offense against common decency to level charges against anyone based on prejudiced suppositions. That is not denial. That is an acknowledgment of personal ignorance.

One of the moral imperatives that people (should) live by is the biblical exhortation to not bare false witness against our neighbors. Rumor mongers have little idea how much harm their spiteful tongs can cause. But many lives have been utterly ruined by false accusation.

If you know for a fact, thru experience or observation, that abuse has occurred, then it is important to speak out. But if you suspect the possibility that abuse might occur, based on hearsay and conjecture, your responsibility is limited to continued vigilance.

We cannot take on the whole burden of saving the world. Yet we must be prepared to act when called upon. It is that preparation to intervene at a well informed moment that keeps guilt over inaction out of the equation. And it the tempering of our words when we are not fully informed that keeps us in compliance with normal standards of diplomacy.

Aden
 
Hello all, I think I need to put my two cents in here.
1. Because we are only getting a written statement, and no body language, or facial expressions or eye contact. It is very easy to misinterpret the written word.

2. There are at least two female rape survivors on this thread. Think you ForLauren for letting us know. Being that you are rape survivor's part of the anger is due to that. As rape survivor's you are reacting based on your own rape experiences and personalities. That can make it trying.
3. I am a male rape survivor, that makes three rape survivors on the thread. I will try to use only cold blooded logic here.

ForLauren, being that you are there, you are Johnny on the spot for the rest of us. We only know what you tell us.
I would like you to think back to before you knew your husband was molested. Was there anything back then that told you that his sister was being abused? If there was you could probably take that and report it. But I think you would have done that already, if it was true.
Instead what you have is a lot of suspicions, that you have added up in your head after the fact. I am not saying that they are not true, or that you are not correct in your thinking, just that it may not be enough to get any of the agencies to do anything about it.
You are very frustrated with both your husband and your sister in-law, because if they were to come forward, it would very likely be enough to tip the scales and get the little girl removed from the household. But they don't want to do that because they have been screwed in the head. Let me try to explain that.
The person that raped me was a stranger, so he did not screw me in the head, but my stepfather did. My stepfather was a violent drunk! I both loved and hated him! When he was sober I loved him, but when he got drunk I hated him for beating up my mother. This screwed with my head for sure.
I think both your husband and sister in-law, have this same problem.

Back to you, as a rape survivor, you are feeling compelled to do something, anything about this saturation. Your feet sure are in the fire! You said that your sister is a lawyer, I would go to her, she has been trained in logic. Ask her to look only at what little evidence you have and any suspicions that don't include your husband or sister in-law. If she thinks it is enough to have one of the child agencies check out the home, then and only then do you have a decision to make. If the answer is no then you have to hold off, but continue to keep a eagle's eye on the situation, he will screwup and give himself away. In the mean time be sure to keep a diary of what you see, with time and dates. That in its self may be important.
I wish you well, in these trying times.
 
I know that some Private Messages have been exchanged behind the scenes over this post, and I fear there is a risk of an argument breaking out.

Can I please ask that people keep the discussion of this very emotive topic strictly to the topic and leave personalities and personal situations out of the discussion.

Thank you.
Lloydy
Forums Admin.
 
I just noticed the 'mandated reporter' part of forLauren's messages.

It has been reported. That's why those laws exist. It's exactly because of situations like the one we have read about here - past bad behavior, suspected current bad behavior, a victim still unable to act, and a spouse with her hands tied. I relied on others to keep an eye on my dad - I told the pastor at his church, my siblings and my mom. I figure that's alot of eyes to spot anymore ickiness.

I can't judge anyone else's situation on here - nobody can. If a post sounds like something I'm feeling or have been through I'll post what's in my head. If I ever judge anyone I do hope someone will call me on it.
 
forlauren,

I'm not interested in starting a fight with you.

I think we are actually saying the same thing in two different ways.

What I believe upset you originally was a post from another thread. I apologize if my words were unclear. I was trying to make the point that clearly more is at stake for you than your sister-in-law's welfare-- which is the same thing you're saying. I'm sorry you're being forced to make painful choices, believe me, I am sympathetic to that.

I'm not trying to say you should choose a girl you've met once over your husband. And I don't believe we should all run around being hypervigilant and reporting every questionable thing we see.

I'm basically saying the first thing I said in my other, "sympathetic" post, which is, maybe for you, the situation with your sister-in-law has less to do with her and more to do with how you feel about your husband and perhaps the wish you had that he would see things your way. I'm glad you've reached a point where you can accept his feelings--that wasn't sarcastic. I wasn't trying to judge you-- just making an observation.
 
Hey guys, had to look at the board today because I've been growing discouraged about my own relationship stuff and I knew it would be good for me to be here a bit.
I think I was as excited as you forlauren about your insight! that probably has something to do with my own situation wherein my guy seems to be in a bit of denial right now about his own abuse and i realize i've got to accept that that's right where he should be if that's where he is about it. I'm just gonna try to keep reading and learning about his situation so I can understand more. It's scary for me too but then I remind myself that that's what my faith and trust is for......

I am often torn when I'm in your type situation where I have to debate whether to report- both professionally and personally- I know it's something every individual has to feel for themselves and it can be a difficult discernment.
More than anything I want to support everyone's sincere heart and honor - I know I feel that only the individual in the situation can know what's right for their situation. your situations very complex and i don't think I feel like i could know all the pieces- just the pieces i'm aware of make me sure it's complicated!
I'd hate to feel like I couldn't emote here and processing things on the boards is something i sure do. even if I sometimes change my own perspective from one day to the next-(or one line to the next?) I feel like we all gotta have this safe mulling-our-thoughts-around- get-feedback ground. I know I want to feel safe even when i have to reveal my mind's turmoils and so I want you to too.
[needless to say it's not surprising that we all feel a little emotionally charged/sensitive over the issues].

The one thing I might want to do in the situation if it was possible, is give that little girl as much healthy attention as I could and a person to trust if that's missing in her life. I fear that may not be an option in the situation but if it isn't, hopefully the day will come when it is. [ Please forgive me if I am sketchy on the details here because i haven't been following it all during my little break , but I just want to trust that we're all blessed with divine guidance that we'll follow each in our own way- ]
I'm always so thankful for all the good hearts and the growing community here that represents to me the best of what's on this earth. I am sensitive both ways, so I get discouraged for sure with my awareness of what's going on in this world- but i get equally ENcouraged, knowing there are others that are giving their all to learning and loving through the hardest and sometimes the ugliest of experiences. Keep the insights coming! I just trust that you'll know what's right just like you're trusting your husband at the moment to know what's right for him. peace and hope~ An
 
Lauren
some of the replies you've had to your various posts have been a bit hard, not hard towards you - but hard in 'our' interpretation of 'your' choices.

I have NO DOUBT that being a Survivor of rape yourself, and having been brave enough to pursue your attacker through the courts, you know the problems we can face. But I would also say that your husband and you would face the terrible things done to you in different ways - for many different reasons.


Having said that I agree with many comments made by some of the responders here.

When I asked you why it was so important for your husband to report it and not you, I was trying to say that there must be something more for you going on than just this girl's situation-- like maybe your wish to see your husband confront his dad--
Click to expand...
You've been through much the same process, and come out the strong woman that you undoubtedly are. Perhaps you are expecting the same strength from your husband? Perhaps he will display that strength, but my guess is that he just isn't quite ready.

It is that preparation to intervene at a well informed moment that keeps guilt over inaction out of the equation.
Click to expand...
What Aden describes, or at least my interpretation of this, is the burning desire to act "right now" often turns out to be misjudged - with hindsight.
The guilt of any period of "inaction" will be made better by a more complete result.

I also agree with LostCowboy, it's hard for you to be completely objective.

I, and I'm sure the others who've replied, don't say these things because we don't believe you, there is much evidence after all forom your husband and the historical behaviours of the family.
That's not in doubt.
But from outside your situation we can perhaps see the frustrations that you are feeling, which you have learned to cope with.
The situation MUST be dealt with if you have this much evidence and circumstantial 'evidence'.

I think that you might have hit the spot when in your original post you said -


I am still seeking answers and options. As an attorney, my sister is a mandated reporter. Of course our therapist is a mandated reporter. Something WILL happen, but not at the expense of my husbands mental health, and not at the expense of our marriage or our childrens futures.
Click to expand...
Of course you're seeking answers, and doing a damn fine job of it by asking difficult questions.
But when your husband does go to therapy, and hopefully discloses his history then the therapist is, as you rightly say, "mandated' to report and act upon the information if someone - especially a child - is at risk.

Your natural concern is for your husband and daughter, which along with your own health must be the priority for you.
But disclosing through therapy, will for your husband be a safer way to do it. The mental support will be there and the disclosure will be controlled.

I don't envy your situation at all, and you're already doing the right thing I think.
You're searching all the possibilities before you act.

Take care
Dave
 
I think its funny how everyone seems to feel like they have to tiptoe around here so much and to say dont judge and worry about starting any arguments. Arent all these discussions about judging other peoples situations, to sort of debate with open dialogue so that new insights might be gained through exchange of ideas and information?
I will continue to defend myself and my views.

To say my words anger you, that Im insensitive, and in the next breath say sorry you misunderstood me when your meaning was perfectly clear, is so contradictory to me. I believe I understood perfectly. Instead, how about sorry I completely misread you, misjudged you and jumped to conclusions in an area I dont know too much about because Im not there.

To say that Ive been speaking about how you will most likely do nothing for a victim makes no sense to me either. You honestly believe Im trying to find help thrashing out this quandary just for the fun of it? You completely ignored the fact that Im involving TWO mandated reporters currently. Our therapist puts child molesters in prison for the courts. My sister is a fabulously successful attorney. Shes represented clients in high profile cases and you might have seen her on CNN, 20/20, Dateline, or read about her in Whos Who. Shes also someone I consider to be a very high-minded, ethical person.

lostcowboy, I agree with you. My sister is trained in logic. Im counting on her to help me see things from the logical and legal perspective shes expert in. I also agree with you that my perspective is definitely skewed because Im a rape survivor. Thank you for giving me some benefit of the doubt, that I have the best of intentions and I do promise you all Im doing all I can to sort out this dilemma.

Im not going to be frightened out of existence here. I dont believe Ive done anything so terrible as to be banned or shunned. Im just another person who needs help and is looking for answers. Ill probably be back soon, with word on what Ive learned from my sister the attorney or from our therapist. If there are people who find the subject matter Im exploring too disturbing to read, I suggest you stop reading my posts. What is gained by going around and correcting people all the time? Im not the only one whos been corrected in my conversations. A friend here recently shared this pithy quote with me: The first step to wisdom is the realization of our own ignorance.
 
Dear Friend:

If we as a group continue to squabble with ourselves, we are not going to help anyone.

I, personally, as another bona-fide rape-ee who has gone through the CANADIAN court system & LOST, would NEVER judge you bec. I know what you are up against. It has truly scarred me for life - much more so than the violence that brought me to court in my attempt to stop the nearly-murderer from trying to kill again. I know very very very well from first-hand experience what it is like to be "judged."

You will note that my original post did NOT respond to your dilemma: because I DON'T KNOW what to do & I AM NOT in your shoes & I AM NOT "there."

On the other hand, I certainly DO know quite a bit about how sour feelings can multiply between people & curdle any chance of productive dialogue.

We are NOT adversaries here. There are ways to disagree that do not have to degenerate into boxing matches. (Some of my favorite friends have completely different politics than I do, for example, but we manage to explore our differences with compassion & curiosity.)

I know you are going through a terrible painful time in your life & in the life of your family. But please try to be more gentle with the rest of us - we are ALL suffering to some degree.

Respectfully,

K54
 
Then, you will be there by yourself.
;)


Please - one more very important issue to remember:

many of us, men, women, partners, friends, family have endured & survived emotionally abusive family environments. We need to be very careful not to re-create that kind of environment here at MS bec. it can be highly triggering.

MS is an oasis where people of good faith can come together to heal and help facilitate the development of Trust in others. To be realistic, very few of us here are professional social workers or physicians etc. What we do BEST at MS is listen to each other & share our stories. As you very incisively point out, we can only understand as much as we are told by each writer. It also follows as a "given" that we ourselves can be notoriously "unreliable narrators." We see things from our own point of view, we see things through our anguish.

ALL of us are hurting - no one person's pain is any more or less significant than that of our Sister or Brother.

Please - let's try to respond more lovingly to each other. We share a common past & if we act together supportively, we can make our present & future more bearable & humane.

With affection,

K54
 
kolisha,

If any of my words have somehow "recreated an environment of abuse" why don't you point out to me EXACTLY what those words were? Your language is vague and I'm not even sure you're addressing me. Are you?
 
Hello, You!

As someone who very well knows the "Tiptoe Through the Eggshells" routine... let's just use one very simple example: the word "argument."

As my dysfunctional family of origin would say:

OY!

Lovie, I'm not suggesting that we "sugar coat" everything we say - as Survivors, we can sniff out condescension in a heartbeat.

But we do have to be a little careful about how we present things here.

One of the most enduring lessons I have learned over time from my Loved One is:
Yes. He really IS that "sensitive!" Yes. He really IS that "delicate." Yes. He really IS that "bruised." And yes, I REALLY can wound him very deeply with words that I think are perfectly neutral.

It ain't easy, but we CAN do it! I KNOW we can, bec. we are all here for the same reason - to heal.

Take good care of yourself!

k54
 
Okay, kolisha. You must think I'm a big insensitive oaf then. Because I still have absolutely no frikkin idea what you are talking about.
 
Hello You!

Then - there is always the possibility that it's ME who doesn't know what she's talking about...

:)
 
I am going to repeat the request made yesterday by Lloydy and ask that we keep this discussion on topic, and free from personality conflicts.

The goal of this forum is not judgment and debate. It is discussion and sharing of recovery issues.
 
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