Ever felt a professional victim? Stuck in a rut of victimhood?
Ever felt a professional victim? Stuck in a rut of victimhood?
- Thread starterTom Perry
- Start date
Hi Tom,
I think no one and I mean no one wants to remain a victim. We all want happy, whole lives where the abuse is left in the past and stops affecting us.
Many of us get stuck at times; I think if we knew how to move we would. The process is individual and from what I have read here I have not had the same reaction as you. I think just coming here and posting this stuff is positive. I have been stuck in painful places in my life, if I knew how to move away from the pain faster I would have. The saying the only way to get out of the pain is to go through it comes to mind. How long that takes and how its done is purely individual.
This is just my own experience but when I have felt angry with others for behaving like victims I am reacting to something in myself that I have not dealt with.
There is lots of painful posts on the site and I feel that thats good. I hope that no one labels themselves as professional victims; it may be another way to re-victimise ourselves.
I am happy that you said what you felt, it has not offended me in any way.
Sounds great about the TV programme, hope I get to see it and hope it terrifies the perps.
Rustam.
I think no one and I mean no one wants to remain a victim. We all want happy, whole lives where the abuse is left in the past and stops affecting us.
Many of us get stuck at times; I think if we knew how to move we would. The process is individual and from what I have read here I have not had the same reaction as you. I think just coming here and posting this stuff is positive. I have been stuck in painful places in my life, if I knew how to move away from the pain faster I would have. The saying the only way to get out of the pain is to go through it comes to mind. How long that takes and how its done is purely individual.
This is just my own experience but when I have felt angry with others for behaving like victims I am reacting to something in myself that I have not dealt with.
There is lots of painful posts on the site and I feel that thats good. I hope that no one labels themselves as professional victims; it may be another way to re-victimise ourselves.
I am happy that you said what you felt, it has not offended me in any way.
Sounds great about the TV programme, hope I get to see it and hope it terrifies the perps.
Rustam.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your post.
It has been suggested, in another section of this board, that the name of this organization be changed from MaleSurvivor to MaleVictim!
Although tongue in cheek, the suggestion was made in much the same vein as your observation.
All this to say, you are not alone in your thinking. Others, too, feel much the same.
In fact, there is an excellent section on this very topic titled "professional victims" in one of Mike Lew's book. Sorry I'm not energized enough yet to be able to cite page numbers.
But his theory is that the "professional victim" stage occurs when people get stuck in the anger phase of coping with abuse.
It seems to me that I have noticed a similar correlation here also.
Those who are so heavily invested in being angry and vengeful seem to be the least willing to venture further in their development and remain 'professional' or 'permanent' victims.
Mike goes on to list various characteristics of this class of survivor. One of them is a tendency toward creating conflict, and attacking fellow survivors. In fact, he states that they begin to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being 'abusers'.
Quite interesting and very helpful to me at the time, I resolved that I did not wish to get stuck in the anger that would turn me into an abuser. And I must say that the work I have done since then has been the most difficult so far, except for the initial disclosure of the abuse.
Thus, it is easy for me to understand why one can get stuck in the anger. It feels comfortable and safe. Beyond the anger lies vulnerability, which most men who have been sexually abused, fear more than anything else.
I don't feel it is my duty to judge whether or not an individual is in the class of a 'professional' (I prefer 'permanent') victim.
However as a survivor myself, I feel a responsibility to care for myself and to avoid getting sucked into anothers victimhood.
And more importantly, I feel that as a man who has been given the opportunity to recover from the effects of sexual abuse, it is at once my repsponsibility and my reward to offer my aid and assistance to those men who are finding their way out of the morass of denial and self-defeating behaviors that form the residue of sexual abuse.
So, it's hard for me to be of help to others if I myself am stuck in anger and negativity. In other words, I cannot transmit what I do not have.
For my sake primarily, and also in order to help others as I was helped, I strive to continue to grow in my recovery.
Not surprisingly, one chief characteristic of one who is moving from victimhood to survivorhood, is a desire and willingness to be of assistance to others. It seems 'permanent victimhood' is an extremely self-centered and isolating phenonemon.
Thank God it is, in my opinion, a relatively rare phenomenon here at MaleSurvivor. Still, unless one is aware of such things, the potential for harm from such individuals is great. And much damage has been done here by some who fit the criteria for 'permanent' victimhood.
In the end I would say that, yes, definitely such a class of survivors exists. It is good to be aware of such things so that we may protect ourselves during the sensitive times of our own recovery. It is good also to have the knowledge to help others who may be confused by such behaviors, especially newcomers who might get the idea that this is what recovery is all about--being pissed off all the time and attacking those around them.
But it is not for me to label such individuals or to treat them as inferior. They too are survivors, stuck in a very painful place. But I don't have to get stuck there with them.
And for that I am grateful.
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. You can see that I have considered this much myself.
"Jump" as you say, is what I have had to do repeatedly, even when I could not see the net. I somehow had to decide that the fear of the unknown future was less frightening that the pain and misery of the past inflicting itself on my present.
If anyone is interested in Mike Lew's thoughts on this subject, I'll go dig up the book for you.
Take care everyone, love yourself and each other.
Regards,
Thanks for your post.
It has been suggested, in another section of this board, that the name of this organization be changed from MaleSurvivor to MaleVictim!
Although tongue in cheek, the suggestion was made in much the same vein as your observation.
All this to say, you are not alone in your thinking. Others, too, feel much the same.
In fact, there is an excellent section on this very topic titled "professional victims" in one of Mike Lew's book. Sorry I'm not energized enough yet to be able to cite page numbers.
But his theory is that the "professional victim" stage occurs when people get stuck in the anger phase of coping with abuse.
It seems to me that I have noticed a similar correlation here also.
Those who are so heavily invested in being angry and vengeful seem to be the least willing to venture further in their development and remain 'professional' or 'permanent' victims.
Mike goes on to list various characteristics of this class of survivor. One of them is a tendency toward creating conflict, and attacking fellow survivors. In fact, he states that they begin to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being 'abusers'.
Quite interesting and very helpful to me at the time, I resolved that I did not wish to get stuck in the anger that would turn me into an abuser. And I must say that the work I have done since then has been the most difficult so far, except for the initial disclosure of the abuse.
Thus, it is easy for me to understand why one can get stuck in the anger. It feels comfortable and safe. Beyond the anger lies vulnerability, which most men who have been sexually abused, fear more than anything else.
I don't feel it is my duty to judge whether or not an individual is in the class of a 'professional' (I prefer 'permanent') victim.
However as a survivor myself, I feel a responsibility to care for myself and to avoid getting sucked into anothers victimhood.
And more importantly, I feel that as a man who has been given the opportunity to recover from the effects of sexual abuse, it is at once my repsponsibility and my reward to offer my aid and assistance to those men who are finding their way out of the morass of denial and self-defeating behaviors that form the residue of sexual abuse.
So, it's hard for me to be of help to others if I myself am stuck in anger and negativity. In other words, I cannot transmit what I do not have.
For my sake primarily, and also in order to help others as I was helped, I strive to continue to grow in my recovery.
Not surprisingly, one chief characteristic of one who is moving from victimhood to survivorhood, is a desire and willingness to be of assistance to others. It seems 'permanent victimhood' is an extremely self-centered and isolating phenonemon.
Thank God it is, in my opinion, a relatively rare phenomenon here at MaleSurvivor. Still, unless one is aware of such things, the potential for harm from such individuals is great. And much damage has been done here by some who fit the criteria for 'permanent' victimhood.
In the end I would say that, yes, definitely such a class of survivors exists. It is good to be aware of such things so that we may protect ourselves during the sensitive times of our own recovery. It is good also to have the knowledge to help others who may be confused by such behaviors, especially newcomers who might get the idea that this is what recovery is all about--being pissed off all the time and attacking those around them.
But it is not for me to label such individuals or to treat them as inferior. They too are survivors, stuck in a very painful place. But I don't have to get stuck there with them.
And for that I am grateful.
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. You can see that I have considered this much myself.
"Jump" as you say, is what I have had to do repeatedly, even when I could not see the net. I somehow had to decide that the fear of the unknown future was less frightening that the pain and misery of the past inflicting itself on my present.
If anyone is interested in Mike Lew's thoughts on this subject, I'll go dig up the book for you.
Take care everyone, love yourself and each other.
Regards,
If I use anger as an indicator, I suppose I could say that I was a "professional" victim from the time I was first abused (as a baby) until relatively recently (after about a year of specifically focused abuse recovery therapy). That would be almost 50 years.
My behavior was as incomprehensible for the people around me as it seems at times to be for some people here as they read the posts from survivor/victims who are using this site to vent their anger. I do it sometimes myself but, in my case, I think of it more as part of working through my anger.
Though others seem to be more deeply enmeshed in it for the time being, it does not seem unlike my own experience so it is usually easy for me to read their posts with a compassion born of empathy.
I agree that I was pretty much "stuck" in an anger phase all that time (directed at others and at myself) though I didn't begin to conciously comprehend why until several years ago.
I expect to experience anger, from time to time, towards perps for the rest of my life and that seems to me to be appropriate for my situation.
I see my experience as a lifelong struggle but, oftener now, do not see "survivor-victim" as my only identity though at times it still feels like it is my chief identity.
My behavior was as incomprehensible for the people around me as it seems at times to be for some people here as they read the posts from survivor/victims who are using this site to vent their anger. I do it sometimes myself but, in my case, I think of it more as part of working through my anger.
Though others seem to be more deeply enmeshed in it for the time being, it does not seem unlike my own experience so it is usually easy for me to read their posts with a compassion born of empathy.
I agree that I was pretty much "stuck" in an anger phase all that time (directed at others and at myself) though I didn't begin to conciously comprehend why until several years ago.
I expect to experience anger, from time to time, towards perps for the rest of my life and that seems to me to be appropriate for my situation.
I see my experience as a lifelong struggle but, oftener now, do not see "survivor-victim" as my only identity though at times it still feels like it is my chief identity.
Hi Tom,
Thanks for sharing so much of your story.
I am honored to know more about you.
A quick correction about the role of Anger is recovery.
First of all, the book I was talking about is Mic Hunter's "Abused Boys, The Neglected Victims of Sexual Abuse" and not Mike Lew's writing.
The specific passage to which I referred is on p. 110 under the heading SADNESS.
Here's the quote:
'SADNESS'
Sadness comes when a man realizes that he was wronged and that he has lost something that he can never retrieve. It is a very unpleasant realization, so many men seek to avoid the sadness stage. They prefer to remain angry, thinking that if they become aware of their sadness they will lose their sense of power forever, become too vulnerable, and get mistreated again. I refer to these people as professional victims. (emphasis added)
They hold on to their resentments, become self-righteous, and may even become verbally abusive to others who do not hold the same views as they do, particularly when it cmes to the topic of child sexual abuse.".......
There is a great deal more of very helpful information on this whole idea of the stages of recovery and I would recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.
I just wanted to correct any misinformation that I unintentionally spread in my previous post.
My lesson has been, "Get angry, be angry, but don't stay angry too long. Move on and allow myself to be sad."
That's kind of where I am now. On the cusp of sadness. I'm sick of anger, at least overt. And yet my insecurity causes me to be terrified of feeling my deep sadness.
It's not a good place to be stuck. I am certain, with help, that I can move forward.
It just doesn't feel real good right now at all.
Thanks for bearing with me. And thanks to Mic Hunter for his excellent book.
Regards,
Thanks for sharing so much of your story.
I am honored to know more about you.
A quick correction about the role of Anger is recovery.
First of all, the book I was talking about is Mic Hunter's "Abused Boys, The Neglected Victims of Sexual Abuse" and not Mike Lew's writing.
The specific passage to which I referred is on p. 110 under the heading SADNESS.
Here's the quote:
'SADNESS'
Sadness comes when a man realizes that he was wronged and that he has lost something that he can never retrieve. It is a very unpleasant realization, so many men seek to avoid the sadness stage. They prefer to remain angry, thinking that if they become aware of their sadness they will lose their sense of power forever, become too vulnerable, and get mistreated again. I refer to these people as professional victims. (emphasis added)
They hold on to their resentments, become self-righteous, and may even become verbally abusive to others who do not hold the same views as they do, particularly when it cmes to the topic of child sexual abuse.".......
There is a great deal more of very helpful information on this whole idea of the stages of recovery and I would recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.
I just wanted to correct any misinformation that I unintentionally spread in my previous post.
My lesson has been, "Get angry, be angry, but don't stay angry too long. Move on and allow myself to be sad."
That's kind of where I am now. On the cusp of sadness. I'm sick of anger, at least overt. And yet my insecurity causes me to be terrified of feeling my deep sadness.
It's not a good place to be stuck. I am certain, with help, that I can move forward.
It just doesn't feel real good right now at all.
Thanks for bearing with me. And thanks to Mic Hunter for his excellent book.
Regards,
I think that the use of the word, "professional," in that context, is unfortunate. It has been used so much in that way, in other contexts, that it now sounds almost flippant.
I found it irritating when I read the book and it, I have to admit, raised my hackles. Ironically, it made me angry.
Tom, despite your struggles with anger about things that are now part of your history and cannot be changed, you are, as part of your group, taking on a very positive crusade, I think.
Anger may fuel the effort but I am impressed that the process and outcome are not violent.
The challenge is huge but I think any degree of participation in such efforts to make such forward looking change carry an affirmation of self with them as well.
When I was hospitalized (incarcerated, really) in a residential treatment program for teens with mental illness (mine was depression) my first therapist gave me a copy of a poem that a patient of her's had written.
It spoke of the pain of depression but also looked forward to a happier future. In it she told herself to take a portion of the fire of her pain and, as she wrote, "cast these sparks of love before the hearts of all."
It is possible, I believe, to eventually take our anger and sadness and use them to fuel efforts that will change the lives of vulnerable boys for many generations to come.
I found it irritating when I read the book and it, I have to admit, raised my hackles. Ironically, it made me angry.
Tom, despite your struggles with anger about things that are now part of your history and cannot be changed, you are, as part of your group, taking on a very positive crusade, I think.
Anger may fuel the effort but I am impressed that the process and outcome are not violent.
The challenge is huge but I think any degree of participation in such efforts to make such forward looking change carry an affirmation of self with them as well.
When I was hospitalized (incarcerated, really) in a residential treatment program for teens with mental illness (mine was depression) my first therapist gave me a copy of a poem that a patient of her's had written.
It spoke of the pain of depression but also looked forward to a happier future. In it she told herself to take a portion of the fire of her pain and, as she wrote, "cast these sparks of love before the hearts of all."
It is possible, I believe, to eventually take our anger and sadness and use them to fuel efforts that will change the lives of vulnerable boys for many generations to come.
Mr Perry,
It is of my opinion that your comment, "JUMP - STOP BEING A VICTIM", is obtuse.
And furthermore, though I can congratulate you on your accomplishments now, you yourself said that, "I was in an emotionally very brittle state and I broke down," he says. "It was the first time I'd told anyone I'd been abused.
"You feel so guilt-ridden. You spend your entire life keeping it quiet because you're so ashamed."
So, you kept quiet for around 30 years after the abuse. And now that you feel youre an 'activist', everyone else should be able to overcome the shame as you. Calling people here, dullard for not seeing the light as you feel you have, is simply wrong.
I find your attitude rude, insensitive & judgmental.
If your intent was to be motivational, you went about it in the wrong way. You have laid insult upon the injured, and appear to aggressively arrogant to consider the consequences of your statements, and the pain you bestowed upon the brave survivors that come to this site.
It is of my opinion that your comment, "JUMP - STOP BEING A VICTIM", is obtuse.
And furthermore, though I can congratulate you on your accomplishments now, you yourself said that, "I was in an emotionally very brittle state and I broke down," he says. "It was the first time I'd told anyone I'd been abused.
"You feel so guilt-ridden. You spend your entire life keeping it quiet because you're so ashamed."
So, you kept quiet for around 30 years after the abuse. And now that you feel youre an 'activist', everyone else should be able to overcome the shame as you. Calling people here, dullard for not seeing the light as you feel you have, is simply wrong.
I find your attitude rude, insensitive & judgmental.
If your intent was to be motivational, you went about it in the wrong way. You have laid insult upon the injured, and appear to aggressively arrogant to consider the consequences of your statements, and the pain you bestowed upon the brave survivors that come to this site.
I have said and written things, in anger, that I know others have found offensive and/or hurtful.
I have regretted that.
Sometimes I think that I have been misunderstood, that I didn't make it clear that I was speaking out of my own frustration. Other times, I have had to really try to take in the criticism and find a way to take a step forward.
A friend once told me that when I criticize others, I am really talking about myself.
That was an eye opener!
Since then, I have tried to get better at listening to what I am thinking, saying and feeling so that I can find their true source. That's one of my routes towards as much healing as is possible.
Apologizing for me has been, and continues to be to some extent, very difficult. I know that is largely due to the anger I feel as a result of the abuse I experienced.
And, worse yet, I sometimes have a very strong urge to just hit someone, to make them feel a physical pain just as I feel my emotional pain.
I struggle with defining boundaries so, out of my anger, I don't want to apologize to anyone at all.
I feel shame and guilt and, not being able to focus anger on perps where it belongs, I refuse to apologize. Odd as it sounds, it is too much like apolgizing for being abused. Weird, I know, but that's how my mind works for the time being.
I know that my anger and frustration result from the abuse I experienced but knowing that doesn't always lessen it. It certainly did not for quite a while after I began remembering and understanding all that had been taken from me.
Without vocal inflections, facial expressions, and/or body language, I know that I have sometimes been misunderstood when the things I have written here are read.
It's been my experience that struggling with anger and frustration myself, I am sometimes better able to empathize with others who are venting similar feelings here. It has been a long, hard road that has led me to this point and I know I have very far to go yet.
It was (and is) an extraordinary thing to find this site where I am able to write just about anything about surviving abuse I like and get back support and get back feedback, almost always helpful and mood-changing. What a relief!
I have regretted that.
Sometimes I think that I have been misunderstood, that I didn't make it clear that I was speaking out of my own frustration. Other times, I have had to really try to take in the criticism and find a way to take a step forward.
A friend once told me that when I criticize others, I am really talking about myself.
That was an eye opener!
Since then, I have tried to get better at listening to what I am thinking, saying and feeling so that I can find their true source. That's one of my routes towards as much healing as is possible.
Apologizing for me has been, and continues to be to some extent, very difficult. I know that is largely due to the anger I feel as a result of the abuse I experienced.
And, worse yet, I sometimes have a very strong urge to just hit someone, to make them feel a physical pain just as I feel my emotional pain.
I struggle with defining boundaries so, out of my anger, I don't want to apologize to anyone at all.
I feel shame and guilt and, not being able to focus anger on perps where it belongs, I refuse to apologize. Odd as it sounds, it is too much like apolgizing for being abused. Weird, I know, but that's how my mind works for the time being.
I know that my anger and frustration result from the abuse I experienced but knowing that doesn't always lessen it. It certainly did not for quite a while after I began remembering and understanding all that had been taken from me.
Without vocal inflections, facial expressions, and/or body language, I know that I have sometimes been misunderstood when the things I have written here are read.
It's been my experience that struggling with anger and frustration myself, I am sometimes better able to empathize with others who are venting similar feelings here. It has been a long, hard road that has led me to this point and I know I have very far to go yet.
It was (and is) an extraordinary thing to find this site where I am able to write just about anything about surviving abuse I like and get back support and get back feedback, almost always helpful and mood-changing. What a relief!
Tom
I agree with a lot of what you say, and admire your activism. But I do agree with Blacken a bit as well.
Yes, taking the leap is a great thing for any Survivor. It's enpowering and liberating for sure.
I've 'jumped' in a few different directions since I disclosed and started my healing in 1998 - 99.
But I would have fought against anyone who wanted me to make a jump with them. That decision to make the jump from proffessional - permanant victim to the more fluid ......graduating ( ? ) Survivor is something very personal.
If a fellow Survivor that I knew and trusted talked to me about making any kind of jump and asked me to do it with him I would refuse.
That would be 'his' jump, and even if I had already made the same jump previously I wouldn't want to steal his pride at making his own jump.
I hope I understand your desire to help and support, and it's only right that Survivors who have 'been there, done that' can encourage others, it's what I hope I do. But I don't believe that we can drag other Survivors along behind us. We can however show them what's possible.
You have achieved a great deal, and becoming active for those who follow is a wonderful 'possibility' to demonstrate that we can move on from "permanent victims".
Dave
I agree with a lot of what you say, and admire your activism. But I do agree with Blacken a bit as well.
Yes, taking the leap is a great thing for any Survivor. It's enpowering and liberating for sure.
I've 'jumped' in a few different directions since I disclosed and started my healing in 1998 - 99.
But I would have fought against anyone who wanted me to make a jump with them. That decision to make the jump from proffessional - permanant victim to the more fluid ......graduating ( ? ) Survivor is something very personal.
If a fellow Survivor that I knew and trusted talked to me about making any kind of jump and asked me to do it with him I would refuse.
That would be 'his' jump, and even if I had already made the same jump previously I wouldn't want to steal his pride at making his own jump.
I hope I understand your desire to help and support, and it's only right that Survivors who have 'been there, done that' can encourage others, it's what I hope I do. But I don't believe that we can drag other Survivors along behind us. We can however show them what's possible.
You have achieved a great deal, and becoming active for those who follow is a wonderful 'possibility' to demonstrate that we can move on from "permanent victims".
Dave
My therapist and I came up with a metaphor that works for me.
I see it now as jumping from steppingstone to steppingtone in order to cross a river. One side of the river is very familiar. The other side is completely unknown.
I am familiar with walking on ground. Over water is a scary prospect made even scarier by a rapid current that seems to threaten to carry me away entirely, drown me, perhaps.
It is not one giant leap across the river but a series of smaller, more manageable steps, that I am taking.
I see it now as jumping from steppingstone to steppingtone in order to cross a river. One side of the river is very familiar. The other side is completely unknown.
I am familiar with walking on ground. Over water is a scary prospect made even scarier by a rapid current that seems to threaten to carry me away entirely, drown me, perhaps.
It is not one giant leap across the river but a series of smaller, more manageable steps, that I am taking.
Tom
we have a huge amount in common, the boarding school abuse, out age, circumstances and the length of time we've been healing. So I have a great deal of empathy with what you say, I really do agree with most of it.
Except this -
And my belief is that the transition from victim to survivor and beyond has to be our personal and individual journey.
Maybe it's just me, but I certainly get the impression from all the many survivors I know and deal with in various ways that I / we react adversly to being dragged along faster than we want to go.
As I said before, leading by example is ( I think ) the best way of getting other survivors to make the many 'jumps'we need to make, indeed we have to make them.
I know that I was so inspired by those guys I met who have gone before me and showed me the way. And none of them ever tried to drag me kicking and screaming to the place they were in their healing.
One of my favourite quotes is -
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.
Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.
Just walk beside me, and be my friend."
Take care
Dave
we have a huge amount in common, the boarding school abuse, out age, circumstances and the length of time we've been healing. So I have a great deal of empathy with what you say, I really do agree with most of it.
Except this -
For me the term "tiresome" makes it look as though you want to 'do their healing for them'
And my belief is that the transition from victim to survivor and beyond has to be our personal and individual journey.
Maybe it's just me, but I certainly get the impression from all the many survivors I know and deal with in various ways that I / we react adversly to being dragged along faster than we want to go.
As I said before, leading by example is ( I think ) the best way of getting other survivors to make the many 'jumps'we need to make, indeed we have to make them.
I know that I was so inspired by those guys I met who have gone before me and showed me the way. And none of them ever tried to drag me kicking and screaming to the place they were in their healing.
One of my favourite quotes is -
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.
Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.
Just walk beside me, and be my friend."
Take care
Dave
Two points really I would like to make regarding this discussion.
One is the difficulty of 'staying in the room' when the discussion gets tough and focused on ourselves rather than some distant person or thing.
Secondly, I would like to consider the phenomenon of addiction, and the role it may play in this question of 'professional' or 'permanent' victim.
The most difficult topics to discuss in a group like ours, are those which are centered on the relationships between US, fellow survivors.
My experience is that we are generally hypervigilant, overly sensitive, quick to take offense, and quicker to see abuse in ordinary conversations.
This is certainly true of me. And I have observed it in others who I am close to on this site. If any of you feel slighted or offended by this gross generalization, you may consider yourselves to be beyond the scope of my remarks.
In other words, if this pisses you off, then simply consider yourself exempt from my general observation.
This is at least part of the reason why so much of what survivors end up talking about is centered on the "perpetrators", the "abusers", and those judges, social workers, teachers etc. we feel aid and abet these criminals who raped us.
If any of you have ever been in a group therapy situation, you will recognize I'm sure the tendency there to talk about people who are not in the room, rather than express our discomfort with those with whom we are sitting face to face.
It is very difficult to address that which is closest to us. Especially when dealing with men like us who are victims of traumatic abuse.
But the rewards of daring to enter into this most difficult type of real relating, one to another, can be extremely rewarding as well as extremely uncomfortable.
So, all this to say, to Tom, Blacken, Dave et al
congratulations on tackling a very difficult piece of work that sorely needed to be done.
It is too easy to talk about how evil our abusers were, how incompetent the judges are or how neglectful our parents were.
The fact is that most of those people are outside the scope of our influence, and always have been.
The truth is that we, ourselves, are the only ones we can change. The paradox is that we can only do it with help from others. Learning this difficult skill of helping ourselves and others at the same time is, in my opinion, the most important thing that happens here.
So, bravo, to you all for undertaking this task.
It is very hard to make a cake without breaking a few eggs and heating up the kitchen.
I would encourage anyone to continue to focus on themselves and their recovery and to share their experience, strength and hope with each other.
The second topic I would like to introduce into the discussion of those among us (perhaps all us at one time or another)who seem to revel in their suffering, their abuse, their victimhood, may seem odd.
Addiction, in its many forms, is one of the chief pitfalls facing men recovering from sexual abuse.
I would submit that is is entirely possible that many of us become 'addicted' to the feelings we experience in early stages of coming to grips with the effects of sexual abuse.
After so many years of suffering in silence about what happened to us, the feeling of liberation and freedom can be quite intoxicating, and rightfully so.
Tremendous outpourings of anger, encouraged by our peers, give us feelings of power. For many of us this is new, and we enjoy ourselves for the first time in this way.
Focusing on the unfairness, the injustice, the suffering we have endured we receive love and attention we have always craved. This is how it should be. And it is a wonderful thing to feel.
It is what kept me coming here time after time. It felt good! I would not deny any survivor that magical feeling of relief after so much time alone in the wilderness of loneliness.
But, such powerful emotions with the attendant positive feelings they induce, can prove to have that addicting quality that certain drugs and chemicals have also had in some of us.
We find that we need to feel that anger, that rage, that 'entitlement' or else we feel like shit. We must have the same 'high' again or we cannot feel normal. After a while, we don't feel normal no matter how much of the high we get.
My point is that the experiences of early recovery can be quite habit forming, yet when carried to excess, also quite destructive.
It is this extreme, I would imagine, that Tom is addressing when he calls some behavior "tiresome". Indeed addiction is very tiresome. Especially to those around the addicted.
This may seem far fetched to some, but for me, I see much similarity to recovery from addiction and recovery from sexual abuse.
By the time most of us get to a place of recovery like this, the actual incidents of abuse are more or less far removed from us, by time or place.
What we continue to suffer from, are the induced side effects of the abuse. Such patterns of behavior, once survival mechanisms, now turned self-destructive, are the real source of our current miseries. Their genesis lies in the past with an abuser, but the current chapters of unhappiness are written by us....over and over again.
So how do you react to a person in the throes of addiction? For me, I must remember to care for myself first. Second, I must not continue to enable the addict.
What specifics are entailed in this are up to me and my Creator to determine. There is no hard and fast rule as far as I can see.
MaleSurvivor acts as a living laboratory in which I and others, with kindness and love, attempt to live and interact with people who have suffered and continue to suffer like us.
It's not easy!
I always say, if this was so goddamned easy we would have all done it already and a long time ago!
I wish you all peace, happiness, friendship and love. And I try to remember no matter what, that I am really dealing with fellow sufferers, no matter what else it may seem.
Thanks again for this fascinating topic,
Cake anyone?
One is the difficulty of 'staying in the room' when the discussion gets tough and focused on ourselves rather than some distant person or thing.
Secondly, I would like to consider the phenomenon of addiction, and the role it may play in this question of 'professional' or 'permanent' victim.
The most difficult topics to discuss in a group like ours, are those which are centered on the relationships between US, fellow survivors.
My experience is that we are generally hypervigilant, overly sensitive, quick to take offense, and quicker to see abuse in ordinary conversations.
This is certainly true of me. And I have observed it in others who I am close to on this site. If any of you feel slighted or offended by this gross generalization, you may consider yourselves to be beyond the scope of my remarks.
In other words, if this pisses you off, then simply consider yourself exempt from my general observation.
This is at least part of the reason why so much of what survivors end up talking about is centered on the "perpetrators", the "abusers", and those judges, social workers, teachers etc. we feel aid and abet these criminals who raped us.
If any of you have ever been in a group therapy situation, you will recognize I'm sure the tendency there to talk about people who are not in the room, rather than express our discomfort with those with whom we are sitting face to face.
It is very difficult to address that which is closest to us. Especially when dealing with men like us who are victims of traumatic abuse.
But the rewards of daring to enter into this most difficult type of real relating, one to another, can be extremely rewarding as well as extremely uncomfortable.
So, all this to say, to Tom, Blacken, Dave et al
congratulations on tackling a very difficult piece of work that sorely needed to be done.
It is too easy to talk about how evil our abusers were, how incompetent the judges are or how neglectful our parents were.
The fact is that most of those people are outside the scope of our influence, and always have been.
The truth is that we, ourselves, are the only ones we can change. The paradox is that we can only do it with help from others. Learning this difficult skill of helping ourselves and others at the same time is, in my opinion, the most important thing that happens here.
So, bravo, to you all for undertaking this task.
It is very hard to make a cake without breaking a few eggs and heating up the kitchen.
I would encourage anyone to continue to focus on themselves and their recovery and to share their experience, strength and hope with each other.
The second topic I would like to introduce into the discussion of those among us (perhaps all us at one time or another)who seem to revel in their suffering, their abuse, their victimhood, may seem odd.
Addiction, in its many forms, is one of the chief pitfalls facing men recovering from sexual abuse.
I would submit that is is entirely possible that many of us become 'addicted' to the feelings we experience in early stages of coming to grips with the effects of sexual abuse.
After so many years of suffering in silence about what happened to us, the feeling of liberation and freedom can be quite intoxicating, and rightfully so.
Tremendous outpourings of anger, encouraged by our peers, give us feelings of power. For many of us this is new, and we enjoy ourselves for the first time in this way.
Focusing on the unfairness, the injustice, the suffering we have endured we receive love and attention we have always craved. This is how it should be. And it is a wonderful thing to feel.
It is what kept me coming here time after time. It felt good! I would not deny any survivor that magical feeling of relief after so much time alone in the wilderness of loneliness.
But, such powerful emotions with the attendant positive feelings they induce, can prove to have that addicting quality that certain drugs and chemicals have also had in some of us.
We find that we need to feel that anger, that rage, that 'entitlement' or else we feel like shit. We must have the same 'high' again or we cannot feel normal. After a while, we don't feel normal no matter how much of the high we get.
My point is that the experiences of early recovery can be quite habit forming, yet when carried to excess, also quite destructive.
It is this extreme, I would imagine, that Tom is addressing when he calls some behavior "tiresome". Indeed addiction is very tiresome. Especially to those around the addicted.
This may seem far fetched to some, but for me, I see much similarity to recovery from addiction and recovery from sexual abuse.
By the time most of us get to a place of recovery like this, the actual incidents of abuse are more or less far removed from us, by time or place.
What we continue to suffer from, are the induced side effects of the abuse. Such patterns of behavior, once survival mechanisms, now turned self-destructive, are the real source of our current miseries. Their genesis lies in the past with an abuser, but the current chapters of unhappiness are written by us....over and over again.
So how do you react to a person in the throes of addiction? For me, I must remember to care for myself first. Second, I must not continue to enable the addict.
What specifics are entailed in this are up to me and my Creator to determine. There is no hard and fast rule as far as I can see.
MaleSurvivor acts as a living laboratory in which I and others, with kindness and love, attempt to live and interact with people who have suffered and continue to suffer like us.
It's not easy!
I always say, if this was so goddamned easy we would have all done it already and a long time ago!
I wish you all peace, happiness, friendship and love. And I try to remember no matter what, that I am really dealing with fellow sufferers, no matter what else it may seem.
Thanks again for this fascinating topic,
Cake anyone?
Tom
Good to hear you are back
"Unwilling to journey to the surface to discover the light that exists"
Until I sorted my addictions out I wasnt aware there was a light. It was only on gaining some semblence of sobriety that I realised that I had been systematically abused by a group of men, I wasnt unwilling to journey as such, I knew something had happened but what with the confusion and the onset of paedophiles and paedophilia in the news that my head went into overdrive and in a short space of time suffered another mental breakdown and that realisation and acceptance that I had been abused.
Maybe I do still act the victim but I have good reason to as I'm reminded about my abusers everyday but as to how I cannot say at present.
I only really exist now to instigate mental retribution on my abusers and the others that remain unconvicted and it is my anger that drives me to do that.
One of my abusers is actively destroying lives at the moment but he cannot be touched as he is now living in exile in Slovakia where the age of consent is fifteen, my abusers are all heabophiles and not paedophiles (not that it makes any difference), it would seem there are a lot more haebophiles in the UK than actual paedophiles. That makes me angry and the thought of my grandchildren ever becoming victims drives me onwards.
Regards
Archnut
Good to hear you are back
"Unwilling to journey to the surface to discover the light that exists"
Until I sorted my addictions out I wasnt aware there was a light. It was only on gaining some semblence of sobriety that I realised that I had been systematically abused by a group of men, I wasnt unwilling to journey as such, I knew something had happened but what with the confusion and the onset of paedophiles and paedophilia in the news that my head went into overdrive and in a short space of time suffered another mental breakdown and that realisation and acceptance that I had been abused.
Maybe I do still act the victim but I have good reason to as I'm reminded about my abusers everyday but as to how I cannot say at present.
I only really exist now to instigate mental retribution on my abusers and the others that remain unconvicted and it is my anger that drives me to do that.
One of my abusers is actively destroying lives at the moment but he cannot be touched as he is now living in exile in Slovakia where the age of consent is fifteen, my abusers are all heabophiles and not paedophiles (not that it makes any difference), it would seem there are a lot more haebophiles in the UK than actual paedophiles. That makes me angry and the thought of my grandchildren ever becoming victims drives me onwards.
Regards
Archnut
"Jump" may not be the best metaphor, Tom. The way I feel today, I am one of those that you would classify as "stuck".
Funny thing is, I've been really trying to deal with my Family of Origin issues and the incest, but I don't have a support network at all right now other than this community.
I'd like to be able to be proactive, and I USED to worry about being a "lifetime victim" as you pointed out. But I know I am making progress and that's all that matters.
I guess right now, what I am going through is a part of the process and I have to go through it to get to the other side. I like an analogy of climbing a mountain rather than jumping!
At any rate, I am on my way up the mountain, and you should be proud of your contributions toward shedding more light on this subject.
I don't think I am necessarily "stuck" but have reached a point where I need to use the board and get the support from others who have been there.
I am glad that we have this forum to even discuss becoming an activist.
Best,
john
Funny thing is, I've been really trying to deal with my Family of Origin issues and the incest, but I don't have a support network at all right now other than this community.
I'd like to be able to be proactive, and I USED to worry about being a "lifetime victim" as you pointed out. But I know I am making progress and that's all that matters.
I guess right now, what I am going through is a part of the process and I have to go through it to get to the other side. I like an analogy of climbing a mountain rather than jumping!
At any rate, I am on my way up the mountain, and you should be proud of your contributions toward shedding more light on this subject.
I don't think I am necessarily "stuck" but have reached a point where I need to use the board and get the support from others who have been there.
I am glad that we have this forum to even discuss becoming an activist.
Best,
john
Tom
I detest my first name and especially my surname I am seriously considering changing it by deed pole to that of my paternal grandfathers surname, have been for quite a while now.
Archnut is just a shortened term for nuts about archaeology.
And as for activist, again watch this space.
As for the Slovakian problem, watch this space.
Just for the record my first name is Kirk.
Archnut
I detest my first name and especially my surname I am seriously considering changing it by deed pole to that of my paternal grandfathers surname, have been for quite a while now.
Archnut is just a shortened term for nuts about archaeology.
And as for activist, again watch this space.
As for the Slovakian problem, watch this space.
Just for the record my first name is Kirk.
Archnut
Tom,
I am not in London, but in Baltimore, Maryland - and I've been in therapy for six years, thank you very much.
I am a survivor; my recent troubles have to do with my family of origin, not with my commitment to get better. I am an openly gay male (out since I was 17) and well-adjusted, considering.
Like I said, I am on my way up the mountain.
Best,
John
I am not in London, but in Baltimore, Maryland - and I've been in therapy for six years, thank you very much.
I am a survivor; my recent troubles have to do with my family of origin, not with my commitment to get better. I am an openly gay male (out since I was 17) and well-adjusted, considering.
Like I said, I am on my way up the mountain.
Best,
John
Lots to think about here....
I certainly agree that some people can, and do, get 'stuck' in the "staying anonymous" phase.
For some people, like John who has no personal support at this time, it's simply a matter of practicality.
For me I am about 90% open about my abuse. The 10% is to protect my parents who know nothing about my past.
They are both in their late 80's and simply wouldn't fully understand, and would probably be destroyed by the knowledge.
Other people will have other reasons, but it's an individual choice.
That's one kind of 'stuck'
Another 'stuck' can be those that are 'stuck' by initially disclosing to sites such as this one, then remaining 'stuck' in the comfortable state that Danny describes, when possibly they would be better off seeking one-to-one therapy or disclosing to someone on a personal level.
I fully believe that this kind of personal disclosure grants us more strength than any kind of 'anonymous' disclosure.
But again, it has to be at their speed and discretion.
Danny,
Your point about becoming addicted to the comfort and relief of the early stages, and therefore getting 'stuck' is something I hadn't really thought about, but it makes a lot of sense.
And I agree 100% with you about the new feelings of enpowerment that we direct at the perps and abusers.
We feel stronger, we realise and figure out that we weren't to blame - they were, and they are the obvious ( and easy ) targets for us.
It's then very easy to lose the plot a bit and concentrate on "their" actions at the expense of our healing.
The fact remains that we were abused, it happened and we ain't gonna change that. But perhaps we should save our perfectly natural desire to 'save the world' until after we've saved ourselves?
This is a trait I see in some Survivors, and I think that they are wasting valuable time and effort in the wrong direction at the wrong time.
I would never stop another Survivor helping others and getting involved, but I hope that I would try to steer them into concentrating on themselves first and foremost.
I've always said that 'healing' is a selfish process, and I don't mean "selfish" in a mean and nasty context.
I believe that for as long as it takes we should concentrate on our own needs first, while still keeping our eye on the ball as far as those we love and care for is concerned.
Once we've reached our own personal level of accepted healing, then we can look outwards and choose the options we wish to take.
I guess what I've spent the last 30minutes writing about can be summed up in the old cliche -
"don't run before you can walk"
Dave
I certainly agree that some people can, and do, get 'stuck' in the "staying anonymous" phase.
For some people, like John who has no personal support at this time, it's simply a matter of practicality.
For me I am about 90% open about my abuse. The 10% is to protect my parents who know nothing about my past.
They are both in their late 80's and simply wouldn't fully understand, and would probably be destroyed by the knowledge.
Other people will have other reasons, but it's an individual choice.
That's one kind of 'stuck'
Another 'stuck' can be those that are 'stuck' by initially disclosing to sites such as this one, then remaining 'stuck' in the comfortable state that Danny describes, when possibly they would be better off seeking one-to-one therapy or disclosing to someone on a personal level.
I fully believe that this kind of personal disclosure grants us more strength than any kind of 'anonymous' disclosure.
But again, it has to be at their speed and discretion.
This is very important, sites such as MS are a terrific place to make that first start, the first disclosure. Why? because there is a large degree of anonimity is why, but sites like this can also continue to be of great help all along our journey by supporting ALONGSIDE the later stages when the hard work is going on.
Danny,
Your point about becoming addicted to the comfort and relief of the early stages, and therefore getting 'stuck' is something I hadn't really thought about, but it makes a lot of sense.
And I agree 100% with you about the new feelings of enpowerment that we direct at the perps and abusers.
We feel stronger, we realise and figure out that we weren't to blame - they were, and they are the obvious ( and easy ) targets for us.
It's then very easy to lose the plot a bit and concentrate on "their" actions at the expense of our healing.
The fact remains that we were abused, it happened and we ain't gonna change that. But perhaps we should save our perfectly natural desire to 'save the world' until after we've saved ourselves?
This is a trait I see in some Survivors, and I think that they are wasting valuable time and effort in the wrong direction at the wrong time.
I would never stop another Survivor helping others and getting involved, but I hope that I would try to steer them into concentrating on themselves first and foremost.
I've always said that 'healing' is a selfish process, and I don't mean "selfish" in a mean and nasty context.
I believe that for as long as it takes we should concentrate on our own needs first, while still keeping our eye on the ball as far as those we love and care for is concerned.
Once we've reached our own personal level of accepted healing, then we can look outwards and choose the options we wish to take.
I guess what I've spent the last 30minutes writing about can be summed up in the old cliche -
"don't run before you can walk"
Dave
Gee Tom,
I got so carried away with elucidating this and illustrating that, I forgot to answer the two questions you posed as the topic for this thread.
To return to and finally get to the point, here is what I say:
Thanks again for asking.
Regards,
I got so carried away with elucidating this and illustrating that, I forgot to answer the two questions you posed as the topic for this thread.
To return to and finally get to the point, here is what I say:
Answer: Yes, quite often.
Answer: Oh, yes, most definitely.
Thanks again for asking.
Regards,
This post is still haunting me a bit and I hope you can hear me out, so to speak.
It's so odd that at this particular moment of my life, I find everything about my past and my present "in focus" - but in a weird way. Like the Twilight Zone, when a long hallway shifts and there is a major revelation in a zone, for a brief moment.
I have been tormented by the fact that I couldn't attend yet another family of origin event (the third in one year) because of (1) my siblings homophobia and (2) my brother's presence (my perp) at the event. In fact, two of the events were that same brother's museum openings. This last event was my parents 50th anniversary, a cruise for the entire family.
I agreed months before the event, that I would attend. As the date approached, the tears started to come. One month before the event, I cried everyday on my way to work, for mysterious reasons. My therapist told me I didn't "have to" go on the cruise. My heart broke in two for my parents, but I knew I needed to protect myself, once and for all.
My parents know about the abuse. I told them when I was a kid, and they told me to never do that with another boy (shame). I grew up gay and came out when I was 17 years old. Since I was a "pretty boy" I had no problems finding men who would take care of me.
Fast forward 20 years later - my parents have accepted my being gay (about 10 years ago, they just gave up) and my siblings continue to keep me at bay, shutting me out from my nieces and nephews lives. All of them know about the abuse, except my sister (I just learned this, I dont know why they know or dont know)...
Anyway, my mother has been trying to pressure me - even said "get over it" sort of a few weeks before the cruise. I got angry and didn't call her until yesterday, one week after their anniversary.
So it all comes into place for this short period. My dreams make sense (the recurring nightmare)...I am strong and I am standing up for myself and taking care. I am also feeling a tremendous feeling of isolation and abandonment. The child still wants to be hugged and defended, I guess.
So "JUMP" is not the right word for me. I can't see how I could have possibly gotten to this point any sooner in my life, or I would want to. I am alone now, but as lonely and isolated as I feel, and as "professional" as I have become with my victimization, I know I will survive. I know it.
That eight year old boy, I realize today, did not get to Europe and back (and not only survive, but thrive) thanks to anyone else but ME. I have gotten myself this far up the mountain, I'll be damned if I let anyone or anything stop me from getting to the top. Not even my parents guilt. I realize that they need me to be a victim, a shamed and isolated child that needs them.
I realized I don't need anyone but myself to defend myself. Is this "victim no longer"? Have I reached the peak yet?
Alas, I know there is yet another challenge ahead of me (or maybe hundreds, as I consider the Peace Corps...)...but for now, for this single Sunday afternoon in cold Maryland, it all makes sense. And I am OK.
Thanks for listening, guys. This place is catharsis "puro y duro" as they say. It's safe and warm here, today. I hope you having a good day. If not, rest assured, tomorrow will be better.
It's so odd that at this particular moment of my life, I find everything about my past and my present "in focus" - but in a weird way. Like the Twilight Zone, when a long hallway shifts and there is a major revelation in a zone, for a brief moment.
I have been tormented by the fact that I couldn't attend yet another family of origin event (the third in one year) because of (1) my siblings homophobia and (2) my brother's presence (my perp) at the event. In fact, two of the events were that same brother's museum openings. This last event was my parents 50th anniversary, a cruise for the entire family.
I agreed months before the event, that I would attend. As the date approached, the tears started to come. One month before the event, I cried everyday on my way to work, for mysterious reasons. My therapist told me I didn't "have to" go on the cruise. My heart broke in two for my parents, but I knew I needed to protect myself, once and for all.
My parents know about the abuse. I told them when I was a kid, and they told me to never do that with another boy (shame). I grew up gay and came out when I was 17 years old. Since I was a "pretty boy" I had no problems finding men who would take care of me.
Fast forward 20 years later - my parents have accepted my being gay (about 10 years ago, they just gave up) and my siblings continue to keep me at bay, shutting me out from my nieces and nephews lives. All of them know about the abuse, except my sister (I just learned this, I dont know why they know or dont know)...
Anyway, my mother has been trying to pressure me - even said "get over it" sort of a few weeks before the cruise. I got angry and didn't call her until yesterday, one week after their anniversary.
So it all comes into place for this short period. My dreams make sense (the recurring nightmare)...I am strong and I am standing up for myself and taking care. I am also feeling a tremendous feeling of isolation and abandonment. The child still wants to be hugged and defended, I guess.
So "JUMP" is not the right word for me. I can't see how I could have possibly gotten to this point any sooner in my life, or I would want to. I am alone now, but as lonely and isolated as I feel, and as "professional" as I have become with my victimization, I know I will survive. I know it.
That eight year old boy, I realize today, did not get to Europe and back (and not only survive, but thrive) thanks to anyone else but ME. I have gotten myself this far up the mountain, I'll be damned if I let anyone or anything stop me from getting to the top. Not even my parents guilt. I realize that they need me to be a victim, a shamed and isolated child that needs them.
I realized I don't need anyone but myself to defend myself. Is this "victim no longer"? Have I reached the peak yet?
Alas, I know there is yet another challenge ahead of me (or maybe hundreds, as I consider the Peace Corps...)...but for now, for this single Sunday afternoon in cold Maryland, it all makes sense. And I am OK.
Thanks for listening, guys. This place is catharsis "puro y duro" as they say. It's safe and warm here, today. I hope you having a good day. If not, rest assured, tomorrow will be better.