does the lying ever stop? Really struggling here.

does the lying ever stop? Really struggling here.
W

WontGiveUp

Registrant
So my husband and I have actually been doing really good... or so I thought. He has been going to therapy, been acting like all is well, etc. He has struggled a little finding direction since leaving his job (we are getting ready for a big move out of state so his "job" has become preparing the house and packing). But outside of that things seemed ok.

Until today when I caught him smoking again.

So we have a long history of him smoking and trying all sorts of things to help him quit (always on his own terms and choice). He quit for 2 years, and then literally with in 24 hours of moving back with his friends he started again. Then when he came back I said that I was not ok with the smoking as it smells, costs more than we can afford, and generally annoys me after the money and emotion spent in him quitting.

For months now he has talked about how great he feels that he isnt smoking again. For months he has let me say how proud I am of him TO him and to others. For months he has pretended to only be smoking a pipe (which I am ok with). For months he has lied right to my face YET again.

Right now I am having a hard time keeping my anger in check. We said we would not walk away just because someone gets mad - but this is more. Now I have zero trust in him whatsoever. And I have no idea what to do.

On top of that, when I told him to show me his hiding spots, he did, but CONTINUED to hide more (I went and checked myself) so he lied ON TOP of lying.

After everything, after all he has put me through, after me being faithful to ever promise and supporing him through everything - and he LIES to my face, with no problems being totally believable.

I dont know what to do. Any input would be welcome. While I dont want to throw away my marriage that I have worked so hard to keep and not give up on, this is a serious blow. Its not so much the smoking, I can get that quitting is hard (I did it too). Its the lying... right to my face. He cannot seem to tell the truth.

Please help....
 
WGU, I feel for you. I know that sense of betrayal, that feeling that you are working so hard to make things work and he isn't. First, it is great that he decided to move with you, away from the people who support his addiction.

You know last weekend I had a similar experience and what I did was vomit the emotions...get them out of the way...so they wouldn't influence my decision about consequences for his lying. Once the emotions were gone, I could think clearly and I reminded myself of a couple of things.

1. So many trauma survivors don't like to feel controlled...they have to feel like something is their idea, their choice. If not, they often will act in a contrary fashion just to assert their independent will.

2. People who live in fear (like so many of our trauma survivors) develop habitual lying practices as coping strategies and those behaviors are hard to break. In no way am I saying tolerate it...don't. What I am saying is that it's hard habit to break, and sometimes these guys get really scared of "getting in trouble" with us supporters and fall back on lying to avoid creating an issue. Living in fear, they can't see all the possibilities, just like students with test anxiety can't see the answers in front of them.

Years ago before I divorced my husband, I was complaining to a friend of mine about my lying husband and he pointed out to me that I am making a bigger deal of my husband's lying than necessary, that I actually did know the truth every time - the truth was simply the opposite of whatever my husband said. The friend of mine was a physician with extensive training in psychiatry, by the way. I chose not to remain in my marriage simply because of the chronic lying about bull crap...I divorced him after 22 years and started again thousandsd of miles away with no local supporters, no money, and only 3 changes of clothes. Things are much different now...

You asked for advice so here it is. Don't make a decision until you purge your emotions. Don't purge in front of him too much...it may hurt his self esteem. But definitely do tell him it's a big deal and you need time to process and that at this time, you don't know what your response to the betrayal of trust will be. And when you are both ready, if he truly feels remorse for the lying, the two of you can borrow from a chapter on disciplining children - consequences are always more of a deterrent when both the child and the parent have agreed on them ahead of time. In my case, my man hates public displays...hates them! He agreed that if he does it again, he has to apologize to me publicly on Facebook. He would hate that.

Dump the emotions first. Then decide whether to dump him. If you decide to keep him, agree to the deterrents. Smoking isn't in the household budget. Make rules about the smoking, such as you can't use the household budget for smoking...you need your own source of money. Smoking must take place outside because it stinks. Because it lingers on clothes, when he comes into the house, he has to change his clothes and take over the laundry because the clothes stink. Now it is his choice whether to keep smoking...he is in control. He won't need to lie about smoking either. On the other hand, smoking may not be worth the hassle.

Hope that helps. My guy lied about spending the $50 dollars on a gift card. He also spent $100 he didn't have on video games for his son. When he got in trouble. For lying, he gave up his grocery money to put the money back in the household account. He has no money for groceries and is having to make do with scraps at home; I'm being strong and acting like I don't care, fighting the urge to give him money for food, but that would be co-dependent behavior therefore I let him experience his consequences.

He wants me to trust Him again...he feels the need for me to trust him...but I will only trust him with matters which have no power to cause me damage if my trust is broken. He is working on becoming trustworthy and I am keeping the door open to let him work on becoming trustworthy. Sometimes he is like a cat who brings me a mouse from outside, to show me his accomplishment. Other times he is like the dog with his tail between his legs because he knows he shouldn't have gotten into the trash. I praise him for the mice and don't keep anything harmful in the trash so it is easy to clean up when he screws up

But I have the luxury of space between us. We aren't married and we live thousands of miles a part. Would my approach work in a marriage?

Feel better soon. And PURGE!
 
Thanks Mishka... I really appreciate your response. Its so hard... I went and read what happened to you - and WOW I get it. I feel that very rage. You put it very well LOL.... All that goes through my head right now is "HE IS A F@#&^%^KING LIAR". Everything he has said to me is suspect.

He is acting remorseful... how much is an act, now much is for real - and how much of the for real is remorse for lying and hurting me and our marriage or for just getting caught. Everything about him is fake to me right now.

We already HAD the smoking talk. The whole time he was smoking behind my back he was having me buy him very expensive vaping stuff, and he had to have the NICE ones, so lots of money spent there. He was letting me go on about how proud I was of him. He even smelled like smoke every day, and I was asking him about it and he said it was "nasty smokers" from work. There are cigarette butts all over the lawn - and he said some "nasty smoker" probably dumped their ashtray. They are dangerous to our dogs who get into everything on the ground, and they are EVERYWHERE. They repulse home buyers because no one wants to buy a house from a smoker.

So on top of the total betrayal of my trust and total lack of respect for me, he is putting both our dogs and the house sale on risk.

There are moments when I wonder if any of this is even WORTH it. I thought it was when I was going on the assumption we were both being honest and upfront about everything.

Lying has been a constant problem with him. And not just the little annoying stupid bull either. I thought we were past this behavior, but I guess I was wrong.

As for your methods working in our marriage... I have no idea. Right now, I will fully protect myself from inadvertently spending money supporting his lies. I am cutting him off from my accounts. I will have his card to our bank account, and when he needs to get something - he will have to bring me the reciept. That way I can track all money spent from our account. he has his own account from when he was working. if he wants to sneak around and do shit that is disrespectful or full of lies he can do it on his own dime. And should he lie to me again - thats ALL he will walk away with.

When we were being "honest" with eachtoher and if he just didnt think we could work things out because of genuine issues - I would have made sure he was set up to succeed on his own. If we break up because he cant freaking tell the truth - well he is on his own.
 
I'm going to be blunt, and you are not going to like what I have to say. He is lying because you are a control freak.

The first red flag was when you stated that his previous attempts to quit smoking had always been on his terms and his choice. Why point that out? It's clearly not the policy this time.

And then you move into your plan to control him financially, make him beg for money, bring home receipts, threats..all classic acts of control freaks.

If you don't think you are contributing to his lies, then you are fooling yourself.
 
Hi AlexBoyd, I appreciate your reply.

I pointed out the quitting smoking on "his terms" was because I waited for HIM decide if he wanted to quit, I waited HIM decide when he wanted to quit, and I supported his efforts to do so. My problem isnt the smoking - its the lying. Period.

LOL my plan to control him was him asking me if he could quit his job to prep the house and the move. Again - HIS choice and HIS idea. I supported him because he felt he could contribute to the home more.

He can do what ever he wants with his money - or his life. But that doesnt mean I have to pay the consiquences or that it has to be on my dime. The agreement for him moving back into our family home was total transparency, total and complete honesty. And that is not what he did. He had to sneak off, buy the cigarettes, hide the evidence from me, hide when he was smoking etc. Had he told me he was still smoking - that would have been one thing. But he didnt. He went on and on about how he quit and how nasty smokers were, and how much he hated the smells etc.

But yeah - I am a control freak. One who has essentially been a "control freak doormat" for the 6 years we have been together. I dont police him (his lies have ways of exposing themselves all on their own as lies so often do)- I dont WANT to and I am furious that I have to take these steps to protect myself.

Perhaps you should read more of my posts before coming to the conclusion that I am a control freak? Or do you think that protecting yourself financially and emotionally from someone who is willing to lie and steal from your with a smile on his/her face and love in their eyes is ok?
 
Lying sometimes is related to trust, or lack there of. Could he, safely, really just say he wanted to smoke?
 
I don't want to be "piling on" with my comments, especially at a time when you're so distressed.

But here is an observation. Maybe he's acting like a child about the smoking because you're treating him like a child. Most children, (and adults too) would just as soon tell a lie rather than face a hellish firestorm of condemnation, ridicule and shame.

[quote:WontGiveUp]"HE IS A F@#&^%^KING LIAR". Everything he has said to me is suspect.[/quote]

Obviously, I don't know the whole scenario, and if he has lied about every thing, then your assumption may very well be correct. But, I believe there is such a thing as an evil intent lie and just simply a lie of convenience - or a way to take the easy way out. As an example: if my wife asks, "Do these pants make my butt look big?" I would probably lie, because sleeping on the couch is so uncomfortable. But that doesn't mean I have evil intent in my heart.

I would invite you to re-read your post of January 15, 2015, (two and a half months ago) titled "Missing My Husband." The man you describe there seems quite different than who you describe here.

I can barely imagine what a spouse must go through in dealing with a partner who has experienced CSA. As a survivor with all the emotional baggage I brought to our marriage I'm very thankful that we've had 45 years together. I'm sure over the years she has used the same advice as Mishka suggested: to be sure, first of all, to take care of her emotional and physical needs, lower her expectations of me, plan for her own financial, social and spiritual needs, and if I join in, good. But if I wasn't able to, then her life continued on. I'm glad I was never cut off from our joint bank account or card, or had to bring a receipt to her if I wanted to get anything.

I wouldn't be honest if I said the subject of divorce never came up with us. And I hope that is not the ultimate fate you folks have. But you must take care of yourself and your needs
while at the same time be aware that CSA survivors have their own humane needs.
 
Hi Castle - Actually, yes. I just wasnt going to foot the bill (esspecially with a 400$$ a month habit when I am stretched thin trying to recover from a 30k loss on my house in another state. And he knew that before he moved back in and before he quit his job (3 months after he supposedly stopped smoking, with me footing the bill on his stop smoking aids). If he wanted to smoke - he could not do it in the house, and he cannot do it around me as it triggers my asthma (which is not in control right now). He would also have to clean up after himself.

Thats thing kicker. He had the option of continuing or not - and he chose to just pretend. And thats what hurt the most.

Would I like it? No. But its his life as I tell him constantly, he has to make his own decisions and I dont want to be responsible for his actions. I dont want to be anyone's mother - no kids for me.

Like you said Bluedogone - and you are right - I went back and reread my post. And that is the KEY. Him lying like this and deceiving me so blatantly and easy IS different than the man I described 2 months ago. THATS THE PROBLEM. Everything we have done since then to "fix" things has been predicated on being 100% honest where we both are on things. He even had me order extra of his vape halo cigs so he could have them handy. Those things are NOT cheap! And I have no idea where they are. I asked him if he was weeding off of them and he said yeah - that he really doesnt need to do any type of vaping anymore that he had kicked the habbit so much etc.

Thats what makes this so hard. Who am I really dealing with? What else is a lie? Because he has been so proud of himself and going on about how good he feels. I know its hard to judge as it might look like a small thing. But we arent talking about a small hidden habbit, we are talking about years of money down the drain, years of him trying to quit and me footing the bill.

He still has his card but he has to give me any reciept that he gets when he uses it. He has his own private account as well as access to a joint account that has money he can use. He just cannot access MY account (which is the primary since I am the one working) or my line of credit or my savings. This is not the first time he has sneaked stuff and he even stole from me before when we had broken up. So there is history here.

Being the spouse of someone with untreated CSA, in addition to many other things (Depression, severe ADHD, various chronic health problems) is very hard. I stayed because I love him, and even though I am full of rage and venom right now of once AGAIN being betrayed - I am trying to like Mishka did and let the rage out.

I find that I am far less tolorant of things that used to just nag at me before. My patience is dwindling. After everything we have been through, after everything I have forgiven him for... to be treated with such disrespect and disregard. To be showed that there is so little faith in me and our marriage that he had to hide. Its insulting.
 
I should note - that my statement to Mishka about ""HE IS A F@#&^%^KING LIAR" is anger and rage at his inability to be honest. I have a right to feel that way. And its 100% truth. He IS a f*(&^^*^%@! Liar. And he is the only one who can change that.

A lie is still a lie. And when it takes FROM a relationship/person for selfish benefit, its that much worse.
 
WontGiveUp,

In repsonse to your two questions. First question: no, I don't need to read more of your posts to reach my conclusion. This thread is enough. Notice again, how he asked for your permission to quit his job.

Second question: of course it makes sense to protect yourself emotionally and financially, but it sounds like you are equally (if not more) interested in humiliating him.

Also, I want to explain why I have responded at all. It all sounds very familiar...my parents. They had a similar situation where my mother did not work outside the house, and my father eventually took full financial control. If he got pissed for whatever reason, he withheld money and waited to see how long it would take to break her and force her to ask (aka beg) for it.

Finally, you say the house policy is complete transparency and honesty. If that's the case, show your husband this thread and see if it generates any kind of meaningful two-way discussion.
 
AlexBoyd - you sure do jump to conclusions.

Oh, by the way, he is a member here, and he does access my posts, and can log in on my account any time he wants as he has every password I have.

I have no interest in humiliating my husband and have suffered significantly to prevent him FROM being humiliated. Rather insulting you would insinuate so. If that was the case would I be here and in therapy working hard to help him? (which you would know about had you thought to actually get some background on me before judging me as someone who would want to humiliate and abuse my husband).

And yes - of COURSE he asked me, what spouse would not ask the other one if quitting their job would be ok? Really?

You have made alot of assumptions about me, about my situation and have been rather hostile and accusatory. You know nothing of my situation with him, and choose not to take the time to look, but feel comfortable accusing me of wanting to humiliate and abuse my husband. You might want to consider thinking about why you have the need to act this way to a stranger in a forum seeking help and support.

So tell you what - how about you and I not not interact here anymore?
 
Hi WGU,
I see you are using this thread the same way I used mine..to vent emotions before taking a cold look at what is going on. Your 9:48 post is just venting...as a woman, I can read between the lines. Vent, dear friend...I will take all with a grain of salt. Purge, saying things which are true now but may not be true tomorrow. It's ok.

As women, it is very difficult to see beyond the emotions in order to see reason. Keep venting, WGU. When you feel calm, then and only then will it be time to look at whether and how you contribute to the challenges you two experience and to look at whether and how your husband contributes to the challenges. And then as a couple, you two can have a meaningful conversation and you might form some new agreements to try and protect your relationship. I see a problem though...I seem to remember that he was refusing therapy for his trauma and after you move, he would have to find a new therapist. He may not have the motivation. You might take into consideration that he may not improve in the coming years and he may not be able anymore to be your partner because he is not seeking help. WGU, if he is not pulling his own weight, or even trying to get to the point where he is able to pull his own weight, then he is a dead weight holding you back from a happy life, isn't he? Children are dead weights too, but they eventually learn to be independent and to contribute to society. You said you don't want to have a child...it sounds like you already have someone in your life who wants to be a child as far as responsibility goes but an adult as far as benefits go.

WGU, you don't even know this man. He is unlike the man you described two months ago. Who is the real Mr. WGU??? The gentleman you describe is having serious struggles within the current relationship parameters...he cannot do it. Asking him to do it sets you both up for failure. He needs time to find himself, to work on himself and become the man he wants to be. After he stabilizes, then you can have another look at him to see if he is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.

He doesn't have to move with you...he can remain behind with his friends and have the freedom to get his life together, if that is what he needs. He can't meet your needs if he cannot meet his own needs. Remember:
If you love something set it free
If it comes back to you, its yours
If it doesn't, it was never meant to be

Consider inviting him to remain behind so that he is free from relationship pressure and stress, free to work on self improvement. He isn't stable enough to be in a relationship right now and just as you have to focus on yourself, he needs to focus on himself.

Think about it WGU.
 
Alex and WGU,
If I might offer a perspective.

Alex, what you described with your parents is terrible. I can relate. My mother didn't work outside the home and my father gave her all the money he earned. When he wanted $5 for a ball cap, it was like the Spanish inquisition for the poor guy. He couldn't have any cash in his pocket for little things to make him happy but she could blow on the money on clothes she never wore. I'm sensitive to seeing potential control situations too.

WGU, you are in a very emotional state right now...and justifiably so. Keep venting because that is 95% of what you are doing. Just keep in mind there are men who read these too, and men are fixers - ladies vent about what is troubling them and men in their very straightforward and helpful fashion offer suggestions to fix the problem. In vent mode, women just want to vent...they don't genuinely want a solution even if they ask for it. Its a "womanese" thing and men wouldn't understand that - "I don't know what to do and any suggestions would be appreciated" aren't actually requests for help...it is a form of voicing despair. I noticed on my diatribe I wasn't clear enough that I was just venting feelings to make myself feel better...you will see some men on the survivor side do the same thing. But here on our side I noticed I need to be super careful right from the beginning to make sure everyone knows I am just venting.

WGU, a last point - men are men. As strong as they are, as independent as they are, there is one thing I know about men, including men like Alex; they are highly attuned to making women happy. Men have very simple needs: freedom, food, sex, and to know they are making their partner happy. Most women don't see that about men.

Alex was definitely very candid in his comments but I am certain they were well intentioned in the beginning. Things kinda escalated during the thread but both of you are triggered at this time, I would humbly suggest as an observation. Please continue venting and when you are done with the purge, please tell everyone when you are done and if you want us to transition from listening and validating to helping with concrete suggestions, let us know.

All the gentlemen had good comments for you. All the gentlemen were just trying to help because it really bothers men to see women in distress. Their intentions were good and their observations are worth exploring when you feel better. But first, you must purge.
 
I think we'll have to take the same approach you suggested for you and AlexBoyd and we should not communicate on the board any longer.

But I strongly disagree with a couple of your statements.
"a lie is still a lie." Is quite an oversimplification if the underlying reasons for not being honest were the result of a one sided deal that the so-called liar felt forced to accept. I don't think it's necessarily a black and white issue. There are reasons to feel like you're in a situation to lie, or else. So I think examining the reasons for a lie can be helpful.

"I don't want to be a mother." I'll expand on my earlier statement about treating someone as a child who will of course act like one. A mother child relationship is very different than wife husband relationship so when you feel you have to get him to confess his hiding places, and then check those hiding places and confront him with what you both knew you would find, that sounds strongly like a mother punishing a child. When he has to bring a receipt for any purchase, that sounds like "you've been bad so here's your punishment" or a need to stay after school, something an unruly child is forced to do.
Most CSA survivors have issues with control (or lack thereof). Generally they have experienced situations where they had NO control over what was happening to them and were forced into very unpleasant, stressful situations against their will. But went along with it until they could find a better, safer place. As a result beating someone over the head with what they are doing wrong and taking complete control is going to be counter productive.

I do apologize for highlighting your statement "He is a F@#^%^king Liar." You do have a right to vent. But I spend a great deal of time in the Male Survivors section and venting there is about how one personally feels and the personal emotions and reactions. Any venting there does not heap venom and outrage against their loved ones. It's mostly expressing how they feel, and not condemning a spouse.
 
Well said Mishka, very wise advice.

If I had realized your last two posts were on their way to the forum I would have kept my thoughts to myself.
 
WGU,

I agree that we should no longer communicate.

As Mishka pointed out, I did have good intentions.

Help and support do not always come in the form of agreeing, validating or coddling.

Good luck with your marriage. Done.
 
AlexBoyd
Comparing me to your abusive father (yes I did take the time to read your posts so that I could understand your perspective more) is in no way shape or form "good intentions". Your first statement to me is calling me a control freak with no background information at all based on me being upset that my husband lied to me - thats not "good intentions". Saying my interests lie in humiliating my husband) has nothing to do with "having good intentions" Good bye and I hope that you dont have people in your life who treat you with the same "good intentions" you treated me with when I came here looking for support.

BlueDogOne - I am sorry you feel you cannot communicate with me (not sure the reasons there?) and your apology for highlighting my phrasing is unneccesary as there is nothing to be apologetic for. I actually got quite alot from your posts that helped me work through my anger (which is why I said I you were right in my reply to you). Your post about how I treated him with my reaction to his lying was quite insightful and helped me think about things from his perspective which is extremely difficult when dealing with it in the midst of the emotional fallout of being lied to. Again. Goodbye and good luck with all your recovery.

Mishka - thanks as always for your "devil's advocate" approach and insightful way you try to see things from differing perspectives. Knowing I am not alone in this is very helpful. I know you understand the feelings of betrayal when being lied to as your post from 3 days ago is almost identical to mine (scenario being slightly different - the emotional repreccusions are the same).

I think I will take a break from posting here, as clearly expressing any frustration, anger and venting as a supporter in the FRIENDS AND FAMILY support section is not welcome.
 
One last thing before I take a break from here, my feelings and emotional responses to betrayal and lies and ANYTHING ELSE shitty my husband does to me no matter how great or small are VALID.

Think really hard before trying to say those reactions dont matter to someone who is spending thier emotional strength and life to help and support someone who is dealing with CSA.

I have never and would never say that your reactions to YOUR abuse and painful situations were not valid. I would not call any of you a control freak or abuser if you got upset if your spouse lied to you (causing pretty big damage to a already fragile trust). I think its pretty crappy that any one WOULD.

I am out of here, and I honestly hope that anyone coming here finds better support than I did this week. What was a haven, a place where I could talk to people who understood the complications of things that living with a survivor has, has turned into a place to be attacked for being pissed about getting lied to.


Thanks! I wish everyone the best.
 
Hi WGU,
I hope you see this before taking a break. Your feelings are absolutely valid. And yes, you do have a right to vent, especially here. I believe people on this site sometimes post through a haze of emotion which color their words and phrasing. Sometimes people who are still experiencing pain do unintentionally hurt people's feelings as their statements are tainted with their own pain.

I feel badly for the supporters because we are traumatized by our relationships with these men. It is common for us to set aside our own needs as we try to support theirs. As Esposa would point out, it can become a very unhealthy cycle. Yet often times we stay, rationalizing the wrong things because our viewpoint is influenced by our own emotions. My man was traumatized by other people. He hates the fact that he was abused and that he has to navigate through the consequences of that abuse. You know what he hates even more? That he became like the people he hated, the people who hurt him so badly, in that I have been hurt so badly by being in a relationship with him. He hates the fact that he has in the past hurt me intentionally because he thought it was fun. He hates the fact that he cannot yet treat me the way he wants to and that I am guarded around him; I even have a second set of hotel reservations for an entire week in Mexico just in case I need to get away from him. He hates that I always have a back up plan and he wants me to stop having them because he feels the need to believe he has changed. As much as he wants me to change, he has to understand that I am remaining in a close relationship with my abuser, the source of my own traumatic stress disorder. He doesn't associate with the people who hurt him so badly and as a result screwed up his life. And he cannot even talk about the fact that at this point in time, the abuser in my life is still very much a part of my life and is trying to show me that he has changed.

I think it is very, very important to consider the feelings of guilt, shame, ad inadequacy survivors might have, in this case, specifically when thinking about the traumatic input of their behaviors on the people they love. That must be so painful for them to think about - I know my man cannot dwell on it at all. These men are in pain not only as a result of what was done to them but also as a result of what they have done (intentionally or unintentionally) to the people they love.

We ALL hurt, WGU. We are ALL trauma victims and we ALL lean on each other for support, though clearly imperfectly at times. Come back to us when you feel better - right now everyone is very emotional. It's an emotional topic
 
I took about a week between reading this to weigh in. I want to affirm any partner reading the archives that the lies are destructive and destabilizing. They set back any progress made in repairing already fragile and damaged relationships. Whether or not the partner is controlling is a different issue, and doesn't negate the need for honesty and transparency from both partners. WGU, your rage (and frustration) are warranted and understandable. I know it is painful for some survivors to read posts like this, but survivor pain does not negate our truth. My husband has a difficult time believing I am on his side, but I am. And survivors reading this, I'm on YOUR side too. But not at the expense of truth. If you want healthy relationships, it is the absolute minimum you can offer.
 
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