Do I HAVE to forgive them?

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Do I HAVE to forgive them?
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MM

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OK, I have a question for all of you who are much more advanced than me in your recoveries. I went to my T yesterday and we were talking about my fathers disease and how he needs me to get better and he told me that the hate I feel towards my parents is eating me alive, which is a natural reaction to my pain and abuse, but is also something that is consuming me to the exclusion of me being able to become healthier. He told me that peace comes from forgiveness and then he gave me a lot of articles to read that address the abusers and why they do stuff like that. What the fuck is that?

I dont care why they did it; they are sick bastards who couldnt handle adults so in their sick minds they did it to me. Why try to understand them? I say they should be killed, slowly and painfully. They are perverts who dont deserve to live in the first place. I was also abused and never wanted to abuse another, I know what it feels like. Now I should help him to get better? I want him dead! And that means if I dont forgive them I wont ever be healed???

I was reading the old posts about forgiveness and I was shocked it seems most of you really believe its the right thing to do, that forgiving is a powerful tool for survivors to use in our recoveries. That I should move on. WHAT??? I refuse to forgive them, I wont ever do it and I cant see how that can be good for me. I understand forgiving myself, not feeling ashamed or guilty for the things I did BECAUSE OF THEM, but as far as looking for excuses for their behaviours and then forgive what they did NO, I'll ever forgive them for the damage they did to me. Why the hell should I?
 
MM
Hey. IMHO to your question NO! you dont HAVE to forgive them. Your right why should you have to understand they why's. Why should you have to spend time learning about them? Why dont they spend time trying to understand how much pain they created? I think the term "forgivness" is used a bit out of context. I think what your t is getting at is that if you put the engery you are spending on hating your perp's on you your healing will move just a bit smother. I'll tell you I hate my step father for what he did to me. And my mother for turning a blind eye to all. If I ever get to where there burried I'll piss on there graves. But I've moved past letting that stop me from doing what I need to for me. Just a thought brother
James
 
Hey, Mark, hang on, maybe we can get Ken Singer to weigh in with this one.

My doc never gave me such a lecture. I was the reason for the therapy, not my perps or their welfare. The only time that they came into the conversation was when I mentioned them.

I'm not suggesting that you run to a different therapist any time he says something you don't agree with, but this guy sounds like he may have a one approach method of treatment. And, maybe you've lost confidence in him, anyway, and it's time to find somebody else.

I hate that when a so-called expert gives a homework assignment like that. I'm with you on this one.

Wait for it, I think I hear Ken coming, now.

David
 
(i WILL apologize now for the screwy cAPS STUFF, i'M ON a crAPPY COMUPTER RIGHT NOW AND THE KEYBOard is APParently ALL MESSED UP...)

mark,

no you most certiANLY DO NOT HAve to forgive your Parents. I haVE NEVER FORGIVEN MY PERS, EVEN THE ONE WHO Was only a KID HIMSELF WHEN HE abused me, AND i DO NOT EVER FORSEE a dAY WHEN i WILL.

tHE KEY HERE IS TO NOT LET THat hATRED RULE YOUR LIFE OR THINKING BECause then you will just end up AN angry spiteful person overALL, and while you hAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE angry AND SPITEFUL TOWards your pARENTS, BUT YOU DON'T Want that wAY OF THINKING TO POISION YOUR OTHER RELationships.

IS THat ALL YOUR t MEant? I don't know. but i for one do not feel forgiveness is neccessARY. THE ONLY PERSON YOU HAve to forgive is yourself.

eric
 
I don't think you HAVE to forgive them. It is completely up to you. While it seems like this is a concept that is pushed at times, I think while someone offering this concept means well, it can be harmful if not done in a very careful way.

I'm not at a point where I forgive my abusers for what they did. However I am moving beyond the anger that was so intense for so many years of my life. I think it is a process and one that doesn't have necessarily have an abrupt point. Maybe it does for some but so far, not for me! I went to a church one time that got me to go through a ceremony to forgive my abusers. It didn't help because I was not ready for this and it made me feel more guilty in the long run.

While the anger may be devouring you right now, it may be exactly where you need to be at this current time. Looking ahead that will most likely change but I get a little aggravated when someone says "you have to move on". I think most of us ARE moving on.

Just my take on this whole thing and I'm sure with more time and healing, my views may change just like they have already.

Don
 
Mark,

You don't have to forgive anyone. I think your T is probably thinking along the lines of using the energy for your recovery, as James suggested. I also have a hunch, based on what you've written about this T so far, that you can tell him you're not ready to forgive, and ask him straight out if he means to put that energy to better use, or if he's advocating a more "spiritual, religious" need for forgiveness.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with forgiving, but false forgiveness, just to satisfy what you believe is a religious requirement, serves neither religion nor recovery.

You've made it this far without having to forgive. Put it aside until you get some more more answers about what he (your T) meant by it. If/when the time to forgive comes around, you'll know it's right.

My two cents.

Joe
 
Forgive them or not was one of the first questions my T asked herself concerning my perps. After a moment's thought, she said, "No. What they did was unforgivable." Since then, she has been teaching me how to direct my anger at them.

Green
 
ok, bring on the hate mail.

yes, at some point in time you well need to let go of the anger, in other words forgive.

Hate festers, eats away at you, and in the end it can consume you.
 
Mark
forgiveness is up to the individual, if someone feels like forgiving then let them forgive.
You have no reason to forgive - so don't, and try not to burn yourself out thinking about it either.

I believe it's something that sometimes crosses our minds a long way into recovery, and I think your T is wrong to push it at you now, he'd be far better off working WITH your anger. Not trying to curb it, but channel some of that extraordinary energy back into you and your healing.
I think talk of forgiveness at this time is, for you, a distraction you don't need.

I think that the 'forgiveness' you read in some of the old posts can be understood in different ways.
There is some genuine forgiveness shown by some survivors to their abusers, and if the survivor benefits from that then I can't argue with that.

The other level of 'forgiveness' may be nearer to a feeling of indifference, which is what I felt for a long time. I just didn'tgive a flying fart either way about them. I didn't wan't to think about them, much less care.

But recently I've begun to hate them, and I like that feeling. I'm comfortable with it, it suits my recovery and I certainly don't feel guilty about expressing my hatred for them.

But most importantly, I made all those choices on my own. My therapist would have never steered me in ANY direction, he'd have listened to my thoughts and commented on them, but the choices were mine and mine alone.

It's the same with 'understanding the perps' - all my understanding or perp' behaviours has been done because I wanted to do it, I'm involved with survivors both here on this site and here in the UK, and I felt that I needed that information to help me help others. Not as an essential part of my recovery.
I feel it's a side issue to recovery, but your therapist might well have different ideas and techniques.

If you dont like what your therapist does - tell him. Remember, you're the client, you pay the money, you're the one who's hurting.
Some therapists are much more pro-active than others and will actively tell you what to do, while others gently guide and influence.
Ask him to explain his technique and reasons better to you, he might have good reasons, but he does need to explain them.

Dave
 
Mark,

Wether you forgive them is up to you. As far as I am concerned, what they did was unforgivable.

You need to accept what they did to you as THEY DID to you. They are the ones that did something wrong, NOT YOU. They are the ones that have something to feel ashamed and guilty about, not you.

The anger needs to be release in a controlled and constructive manner, otherwise it will tear you apart.

If your T is going places, using methods, or the like that you are not comfortable with let him know. There may be a reason he was going that route and he can find an alternate way to get there. You need to feel comfortable and you will not get anything out of the therapy if he has you fighting it.

I was sure I needed to change my T a couple of months ago. I finally talked to him. He explained why he was doing what he was, it was a logical explanation with my best interests at heart. Now we are on the same page with my therapy, I have let him know where I want to go, and he gently guides me along.

Bill
 
Mark
He told me that peace comes from forgiveness and then he gave me a lot of articles to read that address the abusers and why they do stuff like that. What the fuck is that?
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ya what the fuck is that ????? i would change my T if he did that to me. I don.t like the idea of him giving you articles about perps and whats inside their heads. Guess you should talk with your T and find out where he is coming from. This T may work out for you in the long run but . Muldoon / Tom
 
perhaps his choice of words wasnt the best. it isnt forgiveness as much as making peace with it inside your self, letting go if you will. if you believe in God and jugment, you must believe they will ultimately get what is coming to them. if you are more secular, you have to refuse to let them own you through carrying this around with you. you have to find a way to release it, and take control of your life. it isnt that you forget or anything. it is more acceptance and finding some form of inner peace. fortunately i have my faith that brings it to me. i know some day, all those who are truly evil and beyond hope will be blotted out, and unfortunately it will be a large number.

take care, and i hope you find some way of letting go.

jeff
 
Mark:

From Daves Post
The other level of of 'forgiveness' may be nearer to a feeling of indifference, which is what I felt for a long time. I just didn'tgive a flying fart either way about them. I didn't wan't to think about them, much less care.

But recently I've begun to hate them, and I like that feeling. I'm comfortable with it, it suits my recovery and I certainly don't feel guilty about expressing my hatred for them.
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I think that sums it up pretty well.

Now in my case I am learning how to forgive myself and that is having a profound effect on me and those around me.

But the anger for the perps will never change. I hate but am indifferent in my hate. They are like rabid dogs to me and of absolutely no consequence to me in my future. The are insignificant to my future. Maybe that is a form of forgiveness. I dont know. I look on them as the vermin they are and that is that.
 
I feel better knowing that I am not the only one to think that forgiving our abusers is not so logical. I was really impressed (in a bad way) with the old posts. Maybe someday Ill be able to feel indifference to my parents and dont even think about them, but understanding their reasons and forgive them is something I wont ever do. And I wont waste my time trying to do it.

Ill see my T again tomorrow and Ill ask him exactly what he intended with that. It really pissed me off; I dont know what the hell he was thinking. Anyway, I have to talk to him to see whats going on in his mind before I decide anything.

Thanks guys for your support, I sure feel better.
 
Way to go Mark !

Ask your questions, and make sure you are comfortable with the answers. Even if the whole session is spent doing it.
You NEED to know where he's coming from - he might be right - but you have to be convinced of that.

Dave
 
I remembered this, it was given to me by my tutor on the counseling course.
Wise words.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO HELP ME.......

Please be patient while I decide if I can trust you.

Let me tell you my story. The whole story. In my own way.

Please accept that whatever I may have done and whatever I may do, it is the best I have to offer and seemed right at the time.

I am not "A" person. I am "THIS" person, unique and special.

Don't judge me as right or wrong, bad or good. I am what I am and that is all I have got.

Don't assume that your knowledge about me is more accurate than mine. You only know what I have told you, and that's only part of me.

Don't ever think that you know what I should do, you don't. I may be confused, but I am still the expert about me.

Don't place me in a position of living up to your expectations. I have enough trouble with my own.

Please hear my feelings, not just my words - accept all of them. If you can't, how can I ?

Don't save me. I can't do it myself. I knew enough to ask for your help didn't I ? Help me to better myself.
Click to expand...
 
that's some good advice...

hey guys read the poetry i pasted, lemme know if it hits any of you.
 
Mark (MM) wrote:
I went to my T yesterday and we were talking about my fathers disease and how he needs me to get better and he told me that the hate I feel towards my parents is eating me alive, which is a natural reaction to my pain and abuse, but is also something that is consuming me to the exclusion of me being able to become healthier. He told me that peace comes from forgiveness and then he gave me a lot of articles to read that address the abusers and why they do stuff like that. What the fuck is that?
Click to expand...
David (Ivanhoe) said I might get pulled into this one. In fact, I did. I wrote a lengthy response and somehow pushed the wrong button and my wonderful reply went into cyberspace. So, here's try #2.

First of all, forgiveness is something that no one can make another person give unless it is of free will. I don't believe that forgiveness is something that must happen in healing. It may be a sign for one person that he has reached a stage in his healing that he is no longer controlled by what was done to him. It may be motivated by guilt or "shoulds" that say one MUST forgive to be healed, a Christian, or whatever. In any event, the decision to forgive, if it comes up, should come from the person who has been hurt, not by family, friends, clergy or others not directly hurt, in my opinion.

In my work with perpetrators for many years, I believe that most of them who are doing good work in sex offense-specific treatment, reach the point where they realize (to some extent) that they have done serious damage by their behaviors. Some hope for forgiveness and I tell them that they cannot ask for forgiveness or in any way manipulate to get it. If it ever comes, it is a gift and the victim (particularly if a young person) has the right to withdraw it. By that I mean that kids may be wanting to forgive because they are pressured or as they get older and realize the ramifications of the abuse, they may decide that they really don't forgive their perpetrator. To that I say, too bad if you once had it but now it is taken back.

That said, the decision to forgive is generally a long process that is not on the radar screen in the early days/years of healing. Given the anger that you feel, it is premature and not appropriate to discuss that where you are at this time. However, this is not a criticism of your therapist. He may have been responding to the "hate I feel towards my parents is eating me alive".

Anger, when it mobilizes one to constructive action, can be very useful. When it immobilizes a person, consumes him, causes him to do self-defeating or self-destructive behaviors, is harmful. What I am saying, Mark, is that the hate you feel is real, genuine, perhaps appropriate, etc. If it is holding your healing back, it is not helping your recovery.

An illustration:
I'm working with a man in his late '60s. His youngest son, now 33, is living at home with the man and his wife. The son blames his inability to get into a relationship, get a job other than a dead-end, minimum wage one, on his parents' discouraging him from dating a particular girl when he was 17. He was physically and probably sexually abused by one of the older brothers (who is now in a sex offender prison). There is nothing he will do to get away from the home he hates, from the parents he hates, because "they ruined my life". He won't go into therapy, has no social life, etc., but uses every opportunity he can to berate his parents for ruining his life.

Stuck? Yes. Justified in his anger? Maybe. But he is so trapped by his anger that he is unable to do anything to take control of his life.

No, I am not comparing you to him or making any implications beyond pointing out that hatred or anger that paralyzes one from moving to a better place is not helpful. If his anger were to be channeled into action... that is, getting pissed off enough to show his parents or whoever that he is able to accomplish things on his own... maybe he could mobilize himself to address the damage from his childhood.

I think you made the right decision to deal with the abuse. This may or may not be the right therapist for you. You should be able to get some indication within a half-dozen sessions or not. Check out the article on the MS website called "A Consumer's Guide to Therapist Shopping". If the therapist looks like someone you should run from for the right reasons, find another. If the therapist's only downside is this issue of forgiveness, ask him to better explain why he thinks this is where you need to go. In my opinion, forgiveness is something that comes at the tail end (if ever) of the treatment. If he insists you need to forgive them in the beginning, I'd look for someone else.

The issues of anger and being stuck seem to be good ones to deal with at this point. However, (here's the disclaimer) I can't and don't do therapy via the 'net or email.

Good luck and I hope we hear more from you as you undertake this difficult (but rewarding) journey in healing.

Ken
 
Thanks Ken, for your response. It makes a lot of sense to me and I can sort of see myself in it. I have found with some of the therapists I have worked with that they made comments which really torked me and after getting enough courage to bring it up for discussion, I ended up learning so much from the situation. But these same therapists were ones that have helped me as I have grown so much.

My anger level is not as high as it once was, but it is still there. I've begun to realize that the forgiveness is a step by step process and one that begins within myself and for my own healing.

Anyway, I've learned a lot from this discussion as well as it has been a point that I have struggled with.

Don
 
... the hate you feel is real, genuine, perhaps appropriate, etc.
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Perhaps appropriate?
Gosh Ken, so are you saying that is it possible that I am the wrong one because I hate him??? Please tell me I misunderstood you


Just talked to my T again. He told me that it was not his intention to force me to forgive my parents at all, but he thinks I need to find some way to slow down my anger and that understanding it is the best way. Not really understanding them, but understanding what their abuse means to my life. He said I blame everything I am on them, and by doing that Im not doing myself any good

I dont agree with him. I know I'm not usually very good at seeing the good, but I am trying to look for the good in everything. I dont want to spend my life in bitterness and anger. And I think I am making progress, little by little. I know Im too slow, but Im trying really hard. I came here and Im doing therapy and Im trying to accept that a lot of things I did wasnt really my fault. Its not like Im doing nothing, I want to get better and have a good life too.

Im not sure about him anymore; he didnt convince me at all. He thinks my decision of letting my father dies is a very definitive one and something I may regret in future, so I should think about it more carefully. He seems to be sincerely worried about me, but theres no reason to that, its not like Ive killed him or something. I just chose not helping him; does it make me a monster? And if does, I dont care about it, its my decision. I wont regret it.

He told me I have to be completely honest with him, and that I should have told him I wasnt comfortable with his approach the same day. He asked me why I took the papers. Why didnt I tell him anything about it? I told him that sometimes I do things I really dont want to do, but later I regret them. Then he told me again, thats why you should think more carefully about your fathers disease and what your decision will mean in the future.

I dont get it why is he pushing me so much about my father? I already made my mind; its MY decision, not his or somebody elses. I dont wanna see my parents ever again, Im really happy hes dying and he needs me and I can say NO to him. Is that wrong? Why I am not allowed to be happy with his pain? Because hes my father? Would it be different if he was a stranger? A real father wouldnt do that to his child, he is a complete strange to me! So am I supposed to be the good boy, who even after what happened to me still helps my father when he needs me? I dont wanna be this stupid good boy!

I dont know what to think about my T. We spent the whole session talking about it and we got nowhere. I wont discuss this with him anymore; its a closed subject to me. He told me that in the end its my decision and he just wanted me to be sure about it and that he understands my anger and pain. Im confused, he has so much experience with SA and male survivors, he should know better.
 
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