do I forgive ?

do I forgive ?
L

Lloydy

Registrant
There's been a sudden flurry of posts on various forums touching on forgiveness and it's got me thinking.
Forgiveness is a big deal for us survivors, there are so many questions that hinge this complex deal.

Do we forgive those that abused us, those that moulded our childhood and made us susceptible to the abuse ?
Many of us were denied protection by people who should have done something - but didn't. I personally can't forgive the school headmaster who I told about the abuse and did nothing. Would I feel better for forgiving him ? I don't think so.
At best I think of him as a neutral figure in my life, but that's an effort on a very good day. On balance ? no - I can't. Fuck him and all who sail in him !
Why should I ?

My abusers, and there were many of them, I feel ever so slightly less hatred for. But it's no longer a consuming hatred, and it certainly doesn't stretch to forgiveness. Again, why should I ? I haven't yet figured out any gain from forgiving them, maybe someday I will.

I have no reason to forgive these bastards, how can I after over 30 years of hell ?

But I do know that forgiving is a powerful tool for survivors to use in our recovery.
To forgive someone for something that they did against us takes a giant leap of faith in ourselves, and we're not used to making gian leaps.
All we know as victims is keeping our heads down, thinking for ourselves is something denied us. Only during recovery do we learn this new trick of thinking for ourselves, and it scares the shit out of us.

But we learn it, slowly but surely we begin to think our own thoughts and make our own decisions, and we also learn to forgive.

Firstly we have to forgive ourselves for the mistakes we surely made along the way.
Ok, most mistakes were under the influence of the abuse and the person that it made us, but we're human and make our own mistakes as well. I know I did, far too many to mention.
But I have to accept them, learn from them and forgive myself for them.

Do I forgive any other people then ? Yes, I hope I do anyway. I certainly try.
We all make bad judgements and find ourselves somewhere we don't want to be, hell I've done it and it hurts. But I'm learning to forgive myself for them, for I know where the bad judgements have their likely roots.
If I make bad judgements in my life then others must do as well, and if I try to forgive myself then I must try to forgive them as well.

It's hard, but I try. Do I succeed ? Ask me later........

Dave
 
Dave.

You took the words out of my mouth.

For fifteen years, I blamed myself. I should have stopped my abuse, I should have told someone, anyone. I didn't even try to say stop.

I now realise that I wasn't able to do any of the above, I was scared, shit scared. I was convinced, if I did say anything, if I didn't comply, if I didn't thank him after the abuse (he told me to). He would kill me. Christ he told me often enough that he would.

I can't think about forgiving him. Or the hospital in which it happened, but I DO FORGIVE ME.

Mark S
 
All this forgiveness talk has spurred a lot memories for me, mostly about the many years I spent in "non-forgive" mode. I recall how difficult it was for me to move into a state of forgiveness and how long that process took. I clearly remember feeling like I would be abandoning myself, something I have done my whole life, if I decided to forgive. Like it would be disrespectful of the injured part of me. I thought I would be doing the same thing to myself that others had done all along, particularly my abusers. I was afraid it would be a betrayal of self.

At the same time, I was feeling resentful and angry toward the rapist, and to a lesser degree my mother. It was normal and correct for me to feel angry, it was perfectly justified. Even now it flares up from time to time, and I honor the feeling by feeling it, then put it back where it was. I was tired of feeling angry, however, and it was causing problems in my life. I was tired of keeping my wounds and abusers so close to me. Choosing to forgive was something I did for myself and not for the benefit of the abusers in any way, shape, or form.

I would never tell anyone they should forgive those who harmed them. There is no "should" about it. This is a very personal thing for anyone to consider. I remember feeling very defensive toward those who suggested I forgive, even angry. I just feel so much better now that I wanted to speak up about it since you raised the question "how do I forgive?". To answer your question, you just do it. You just decide to move on, being careful to assure your inner child or whatever part of you experienced the abuse that they will not be forgotten. It's like you fold the experience into yourself as you would a crucial ingredient in a recipe for an elaborate dish. Through forgiveness I have decided to use what I learned from the abuse to better myself and those whose lives I touch, throwing the unused refuse into the garbage can. I hope this all makes sense. It does to me inside my brain, but it is difficult get it all out on "paper" in the same way I understand it. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to get this out.
 
Roy
you said two things that struck me there -
"how do I forgive?". To answer your question, you just do it. You just decide to move on,
Click to expand...
And I think that's what I've done - moved on.
But I haven't made any kind of concious effort to forgive the abusers. All I've done is move from feeling hatred and a need for revenge to a very neutral acceptance. I just don't give a shit about them anymore !
Personally I don't think I will ever move to a stage where forgivness becomes an issue. My abusers were older boys and a teacher at boarding school, so I have no contact with any of them although I do know where the main offenders live.
Maybe if it was a family member or someone I still had some kind of contact with it could be different, although that would be dependant on a certainty that they were no longer offending or in danger of offending and truly repentant.
And I think my standards would probably be set so high I wouldn't accept them easily.

It was normal and correct for me to feel angry, it was perfectly justified. Even now it flares up from time to time, and I honor the feeling by feeling it, then put it back where it was.
Click to expand...
This says much the same thing to me Roy, it's about moving on again.
I still feel the occasional need for anger at them, but I too honour the feeling - enjoy it even - and return it so I can use it again.
I like to do that because it reminds me of the circumstances that have made me what I am today.
I know I've had over 30 years of pain and crap, but the process of recovery has taught me so much about myself that I never knew before, and I don't think I ever would have learnt if I was 'normal' and didn't need to discover myself.

The only sadness is that I'm doing it nearer 50 than 20. But there's many a good tune played on an old fiddle.

Dave
 
Anger. The only anger I ever had was aimed at myself. I became bulimic, I would cut and burn myself. All because I was angry with myself for letting it happen.

As I said in my previous post I have forgiven myself for letting it happen (though I realise I couldn't have stopped it) or not saying anything about it sooner and now I have stopped being angry with myself I have also stopped hurting myself.

I still am not angry with my abuser and sometimes that is frustrating. Though my Therapist has said maybe that is the ultimate in taking his power away. I wish I hadn't been abused but it has given me the opportunity to find out who I am and what I want to do. Though I think that may have been different had the abuse happend at an earlier age.

To me forgiveness was the key to my anger. I hope this post makes sense, it does to me.

Mark S
 
I think attempting forgiveness too early in recovery is a big mistake! It by-passes the anger and attempts to go right to resolution.

I believe that (some) Christian thoughts on forgiveness get twisted or are just plain misguided. Nothing like being made to feel guily if you can't "forgive properly".

I thought I needed to forgive my perp for a long time. Now I'm realizing that that is just another hook of shame and silence he has/had in me. First I need to put the blame and shame where it belongs - on him, not me.

I don't think I'll ever "forgive" my perp for the damage he did to me. Why the hell should I?

I do think I'll be able to some day, and even now, start forgiving myself.

This topic really makes me angry, because I prematurely tried to forgive my perp and it ended up hurting me even more.

Jer
 
Yes, you are absolutely right in pointing out that premature forgiveness does way more harm than good. In that situation I don't think it would do any good at all. You would be fooling yourself into thinking your wounds were healed and the infection would start all over again. I also agree with what you say about being shamed into "having to forgive", like it's your moral responsibility or something.

One thing I am curious about is the fact that several guys have said they have forgiven themselves. I understand being angry with yourself. I was, too, for a long time, especially about allowing myself to get into a situation where I could be raped. But since I now realize I did nothing wrong, there is nothing to forgive. When you say you forgive yourself do you mean forgiving yourself for thinking it was your fault?
 
Dave,
I'm glad you started this thread. For me it is irrelevant to forgive my perp. For one thing it was my sister and I see her quite often. We're not close but I'm not consumed by what she did to me. Rather, I have to accept my self for who I have become. And I have to accept the fact that I have to make a changes in order to become a healthy human being. I can no longer believe the lies that I've always told my self. I cannot believe that I am just a normal person without any issues. And that has been very hard. But at least I know what I have to do.

One of the changes that was neccessary for me was to tell my friends who and what I really am. With the acception of my best friend who lives a 1000 miles away, I have told all my friends my story. And that has been a very liberating feeling. I no longer have to hide behind these lies. It's kind of like coming out of the closet. This is just one of the many steps to recovery. Thanks guys,
mike
 
Working with men who batter I came to realize that many of the men tried to divorce themselves from their anger. The image they have of themselves is that of "men of peace" and they saw anger as something that was just plain bad. They came to this assumption the same way that many of us here have. Anger is terrifying. Their anger caused such pain in their lives and in the lives of the ones they loved. It felt like a paradox trying to convince them that anger was a valid human emotion when the cost of their anger was so high. Then I read somewhere that in order to be able to let something go, you first have to have it in your posession. = So if it is not in your posession you have nothing to let go of. = You have to have anger before you can let go of it. You have reason for your anger so lets look at why it is there. Then you have a choice whether anger is going to rule your life, or are you going to claim your life for yourself, with anger only being a portion of it.

Another piece here is that without conscious effort over many years I have come to a place where I can forgive my mother and older brother, and at the same time hold them accountable for their behavior. I can understand that she was a product, in too many ways, of her upbringing.
She has a right to be as f*cked up as anyone else in the world. She and my older brother just cant be around me while they are like that, because I have a right to protect myself. In an unimagineable world if they knocked at my door today and said they were sorry for the tortured life they left me with, they would have to endure for years, perhaps the rest of my life any appropriate rage that would well up around the pain they were responsible for. If they would agree to that as the cost of their transgressions without an apology from me at any time I could possibly hear their contrition. I say possibly because I would have to allow myself to be vulnerable with them again. I would have to decide if I could ever do that again. The boy in me still wants to be connected to a family, I loved them, they were all I had. Then I had no more.
About my mother the possibility of the unimaginable is moot, she has been deceased for many years. But if she were alive today.....

Even if she herself, and the whole world forgave her, my mother is still acountable for her behavior. My experience was with her alone, not with her grandfather or with her daddy.
For most of my life forgivness meant letting her off the hook. It does not mean that now

The mega piece for me is being able to forgive myself for being vulnerable. I do better on some days than I do on other days. If the unimaginable did happen, I know it would tap the rage the child in me feels toward myself for being so vulnerable at a time I deserved to feel so precious.

I accepted this lot from my little brother and he had every right to every bit of his rage against me, his other brother, our mother, and the rest of the world. Understandably he kept us all at bay. My love was big enough to be able to hear his pain, terror and absolutely justified anger. I listened until the day he died and i still listen and weep. ( My mother could not have done that. ) He died of rage focused on himself. He died of complications of diabetes for which he refused treatment. He was only 53. The lot I speak of is accountability. I am accountable for my behavior. My accountability is limited here because I was a child myself. I am not accountable for the behavior of the rest of my family.
He did realize on his deathbed a truth, when I flew a thousand miles to rescue him in his medical crisis. When he saw that I came for him he looked up with tears in his eyes and said " You do love me! " For just a moment i saw the little brother who saw the sun rise and set in me, his bigger brother, instead of a Brutus that I had been. What a blessing for me, after forty years, to see that love again in his eyes.
It is hard to write through the blurr of my tears. It is hard to feel that I deserve forgiveness. This is part of the legacy of my life, and that of those gone before me. --- Amen
 
RJD
You're a lucky man to have experienced that special moment, however brief and tragic.
Moments like that are emotion filled, and I for one 'didn't do emotions' Now I have to revisit my past to experience them second hand, but that's ok - I find the emotions are still valid.

Roy
Like you I did nothing wrong, nothing that I need to forgive myself for as far as the abuse is concerned.
And even though the way I lived and acted towards those around me - and towards myself - was hugely influenced by the abuse there are still things I did that I think are pushing it a bit to lay at that door. I'm sure I could have done some things differently.

I also use 'forgiving myself' fairly loosely so I guess things like self acceptance and understanding why I did what I did can be included

Dave
 
Roy.

In answer to your question. Yes I forgive myself for believing it was my fault. Whilst I always knew I wasn't to blame, (I couldn't have been I was paralysed from the neck down and in hospital when my rapist, a male nurse decided I was fair game). however I always thought in someway I had made him rape/abuse me or that I had someway asked for it. I was VERY naive and didn't realise there were so many nasty people in the world, (The first time he raped me I was 17, and he continued to rape/abuse me during my stay). It happened again two years later when I was re-admitted to the same hospital, by the same nurse.

I now realise I was in NO way at fault and forgive myself for ever feeling I was.

Hope that clarifies my situation.

Mark S
 
Roy,

Another answer to your question
But since I now realize I did nothing wrong, there is nothing to forgive. When you say you forgive yourself do you mean forgiving yourself for thinking it was your fault?
Click to expand...
Yes!
For thinking and unwittingly buying into all the $**t my perp(s) put on me:
- the shame
- thinking it was my fault; after all, didn't I enjoy the sex?
--- for feeling like I was a dirty little faggot because I did like the good feelings from the sex
- for thinking I could have stopped it at any point but didn't
- for keeping the secret!
--- for knowing the abuse was a bad thing all along

I gotta stop. Too many feelings coming up for me now about this. I can consciencely decide to not go diving into my pit of $**t and wallow.

So many good posts on the topic of forgiveness!!! Points of view I've never considered or thought of; lots I agree with, lots I don't.

I'm just beginning to get to my anger. I'm finding my inner teenager(s) who are enraged about lots. I gotta a ways to go to connect the feelings with the events (abuse). I'm doing EMDR with my T, it's helping with all this.

I can't bypass the feelings, skip past jail, and go directly to forgiveness.

My thanks to all who have posted on this topic and all the other topics in this forum and the others!!! Posting for myself is still hard for me.

Peace my brothers (and sisters),
- jer
 
Hi Dave

"My abusers, and there were many of them, I feel ever so slightly less hatred for. But it's no longer a consuming hatred, and it certainly doesn't stretch to forgiveness. Again, why should I ? I haven't yet figured out any gain from forgiving them, maybe someday I will.

I have no reason to forgive these bastards, how can I after over 30 years of hell ?"

I fully agree as i have been thinking just recently about the act of forgiveness....My hate keeps me going without it I'm dead as i feel nothing at all then.

Interesting to read you come from Shropshire!
Me too I'm up at Radbrook Green

Kindest regards at this time of year.

Kirk

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
Hi Dave

"My abusers, and there were many of them, I feel ever so slightly less hatred for. But it's no longer a consuming hatred, and it certainly doesn't stretch to forgiveness. Again, why should I ? I haven't yet figured out any gain from forgiving them, maybe someday I will.

I have no reason to forgive these bastards, how can I after over 30 years of hell ?"

I fully agree as i have been thinking just recently about the act of forgiveness....My hate keeps me going without it I'm dead as i feel nothing at all then.

Interesting to read you come from Shropshire!
Me too I'm up at Radbrook Green

Kindest regards at this time of year.

Kirk

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
 
Oh, Boy. The forgiving part.

Somehow it always seem to come back and haunt me.
Sure, I know that as a good Christian, I am required to forgive all those who trespass against me. But I cannot. And, by God, I have tried and prayed. How can I forgive such animals?
Do they deserve such kindness, and am I indeed worse off, if I do not grant them forgiveness?

I do not believe my life will become any easier or the nightmares will come no more. I wake up, on average twice every night, soaking wet and terrified. Then I see the scars every morning in the bathroom mirror. Cigaretteburns, cutmarks, Ever-lasting "souvenirs" from my earlier days. I remember the pain and have to make my way around with excuses, every time somebody notices these physical markings. How many times have I tried to explain but couldn't get the words out?

I have come to believe that some things, do not need to be forgiven. I'll let God be their judge, and I am rather sure He'll cut me some slack.
I do however still ask Him, from time to time, why He didn't help me back then. But then again, I guess even God can not bear to see some sights. And there are so many of those.

All the best,

seaotter.
 
Seaotter:

Welcome to MS. I'm not glad for why you're here, but I'm glad you're here.

Some other very recent threads on this topic include: "Forgive & You Will Be Forgiven," "Forgive", & "The Process of Forgiveness," all started December 8; and "How Do You Forgive Someone Who Has Ruined Your Life?," started December 4. Perhaps something in there, along with what's in this good thread, will help in some way.

Take care of you

Wuame
 
I think the above are some beautiful insights and basic truths on forgiveness.

Alice Miller said ...your body will present its bill

Ive carried my rage for many years, and if you asked me where in my body I carried
this rage I would say, in my back. If I carried it in front of me Im afraid I would hurt
someone,and so to the back it went. Ive always been afraid of the destructive
potential of my rage.

It even leaked out as my irritability and ambivalence during preparations for the merry
Fducking Christmas festivities. I even apologized for this unacknowledged tradition
while saying grace Christmas Eve. My daughter tried unsuccessfully to restrain her
laughter when this apology caught her offguard. I know it wasnt fun experiencing my
foulness when it occured.

Ive held on to this rage partially because I dont know what life would look like without
it. As archnut says, Im dead without it.. It has been a concious part of my recovery to
find a respectful place for anger and not have it be a focal point of my life. My anger
kept me shut down emotionally (understandably) and numbness substituted for my
emotional life. Dont hurt, dont be angry mentras by nature also shut out feelings of
joy, grief, nurturing, and being nurtured, and more. I guess I could say that beside my
anger, I also stored my pain in my back.

I also thought If I did recovery work and healed emotionally, I could minimize delayed
physical consequences of my childhood trauma. Well I didnt duck the bill. I have
degenerative bone disease in my back. When I first heard the diagnosis It sounded to
me like I have only a couple of weeks left to live. Not so. Its a form of arthritis that is in
my back. It is not unusual to find this in an aging population, but I was only 35 yrs. old.

It is now 20 years later and it is eating up discs, depositing calcium wherever it wants
to, and just wreaking havoc. There is a song ny back now sings called Ive got spurs
that jingle jangle jingle. The calcium deposits are causing a narrowing of the hole
in the vertibrae that allows the spinal column to pass, thus pinching it. Not a good
thing. I feel like I get around like I would expect a ninety year old to, with all due
respect and best wishes to healthy 90 yr. olds

I guess its just the way it is with rage and my back.

I guess I have to forgive myself for "letting" this physical manifestation to develope.
I don't know what I could have done different. I guess this is another "betrayal" by
my body.
 
RJD
Cool rant, well done. I wish I could do that.

https://www.advocateweb.org/hope/spiritualhealing.asp

This link offers a "deeper" religious view on forgivness. Read down near the bottom, following the quote in the link is a whole section listing alternatives to the bible thumping idiots*:
Fighting Fire with Fire

The institutional abuse experienced by CSA survivors reflects what I call "DIM thinking" (Denial, Ignorance, and Minimization). It must be combated with deeper spiritual truths. Sadly, the distortions coming from "spiritual" leaders are often filled with abusive theology. As a result, a potential source of comfort for Christian survivors may be turned into a weapon.
Click to expand...
This is where I found the above, credit and my thanks to Orodo for posting a classified about this web site:
orodo
https://www.advocateweb.org/hope/Default.asp
I found this tonite...hope it is helpful...
Click to expand...
-jer

* sorry if this inflammatory label offends anyone
 
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