Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )

Discussion on suicide. ( TRIGGERS )
Dave, when I try to do this as child, I then thot, hey you will be out of the hurt, you will be free.

Free of all this crap, and not knowing who you really are, some guys here are real good friends, like I never could get to know in my my whole life, and the women are so cool too.

I miss so much my friends who are not here, and I grieve for their loss, but sometimes life is too hard to bear, and there is no use carrying on.

I suppose it is like, nobody loves you, and nobody cares, and there is nobody to support you when you need it so much.

I am not typing so well tonite,

Peace to all,

ste
 
Folks:
This series of posts are illuminating and helpful. I think, as the board member in charge of the mods, we cannot be all things to all people, especially when it comes to suicidal thoughts or threats. Sometimes people are totally at wit's end and desperate, other times they may be manipulative. Even the couple of trained professional mods (me and Scotty/Todd) are not really trained in dealing with those who are suicidal.

That's why we post suicide prevention phone numbers.

We also realize that posting suicidal thoughts here is very triggering to many who have felt suicidal. We just can't intervene here with the manpower we have and the effect public posting can have on others.

I don't think we can come up with a suicidal thoughts forum like we have with certain other issues like gay forum, at risk or others that have been put up by "popular request".

We rely on the good will of other posters to be supportive or help the poster out with useful experiences or suggestions. And all I'm talking about here is the discussion forum.

Lord help Thad with his work on the chat room where anything can come up in live time and once it's posted, there is no pull back.

We'll listen to your thoughts and feelings and suggestions. But also recognize that the mods are primarily survivors who have gotten to a good place in their recovery and can't be all things to all people.

Ken
 
I will speak here, and I will speak strongly. If it is to strong, I believe someone will do something with this post.

This angers me. It say here, do not threaten suicide. No, it do not say do not discuss it, and I know that is different. But to think that most of people here would not be upset even by discussion of it, I think that is silly.

Jasper50, when someone say that there is been things that have happened here you do not know of, please respect that. Because there is things you do not know of that have happen here before, and it affect a lot of people. It affect their trust, their emotion, their ability to be here and to use here for help, and it was NOT their fault, but fault of others. I was one affected greatly by something that happen here you do not know about, and that you do not seem to care of what Ste is saying, that I feel is also to disrespect me and what these events cause in me for issues.

And Leosha, he talk of a person who implied threat of suicide, greatly, one night on member forum. I was the member that try to reach out many times to that person, responding and PMing and even offering my messenger name. I know of who the moderator involved was, and he was trying very hard also. I can not speak for him. But that situation was very uncomfortable and triggering for me. I felt I was kept hostage by this person, I was afraid very much to say the 'wrong' thing, and I am trying to deal with this person in different language. It was truly a frightening thing to me, and upset me for even weeks after, to worry if this person is alive or not. He have posted here since. I am glad of that. But I fear seeing such a post from him again. Or from anyone.

I lose a friend of suicide when I was 13. I almost lose one of my best friends to it almost 2 years ago. And I lose a friend I have known since I am four or five years old to it earlier this week. This is hard, very hard thing to think on or speak on. Perhaps for some people, to speak of it makes them safer. But, perhaps also for some people, it doesn't. I do not want ever to feel responsible for some such thing. It is to much I carry already. I will not carry that.

Andrei
 
Because there is things you do not know of that have happen here before, and it affect a lot of people....you do not seem to care of what Ste is saying....
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Andrei:

I respect you very much. Yes, I have been here long enough to know that some members were discovered to be frauds. Is this what you mean?

I am not trying to be insensitive to anyone. But it is important for you and everyone else to realize that there are new men who visit this site every day. This is a very sad fact but it is true. In my opinion, it is very unfair to say "I have secrets" that I won't tell anyone. Or that only certain people know these secrets.

This is how it was when we were abused. Some of us had secrets. Some of us were made to keep these secrets because of fear that bad things would happen. So please....if you or someone else has something to say, do so publicly. Do not send me a private message. Or wait for me in chat. If someone wants to have secrets, fine. But for the sake of me and newer members, please do not go around saying, I have secrets. This is wrong to me. Do you see what I am saying?

This is a discussion of suicide. This is a discussion of the very sad death of one of our members. This is no time to have secrets! This is no time to say that we cannot talk of such things because so-and-so, who doesn't wish to be named, may be pushed over the edge. SOMEONE WAS ALREADY PUSHED OVER THE EDGE! That's why we are discussing suicide now.

Andrei, I respect you very much. I mean you no personal offense. It is just that there are too many guys around here who say I have secrets.

No more secrets, please! Secrets hurt. Secrets abuse. Secrets kill.

Resectfully,

Jasper
 
Who will be next? Thanks Androsh, as ever you speak from a wise mind and I am so grateful to you and Leosha,

Peace to you both,

ste
 
Well, here's my deux centimes worth (that's less than two cents, by the way, much less!).

The topic that is not allowed here is the THREAT of suicide.

I have mentioned suicidal thoughts, feelings, ideas about being dead etc. many, many times in my posts. I do this because it is one part of the journey of recovery from sexual abuse that I have undertaken.

However, I am very careful to add that I am not THREATENING suicide or self-harm and usually I will specifically say, "I have no intention of self-harm." or something along those lines.

THREATENING other people on this Discussion Board is definitely not allowed, in any form at all.

So it is very logical that THREATENING suicide is most specifially prohibited.

Do you like being THREATENED? I certainly don't.

It pisses me off. It makes me resentful. I can become angry. I can become fearful.

THREATENING self-harm is a very passive/aggressive way of THREATENING others. We are being THREATENED with the self-harm, self-destruction, disappearance of the other person.

So for me, the topic as far as this Discussion Board is concerned, is very simple. We can discuss suicide as much as we want, as long as we make very sure that we let everyone know that we are not THREATENING suicide.

THREATENING anyone about anything is absolutely prohibited; THREATENING suicide is specifically absolutely forbidden.

THREATENING suicide is an act of aggression towards others that masquerades as a will to self-harm.

THREATENING suicide is about seeking to frighten, anger, hurt, provoke, incite and disturb others.

There is no place for THREATS of any kind on this Discussion Board.

So, that's my take on the subject.

Don't THREATEN me with your own death. Don't THREATEN me at all. I don't like it, I will not tolerate it, especially not here.

The topic of suicide may well be complex and worth studying and discussing in general terms.

But the THREATENING of suicide, whether explicitly or by inference, is an act of aggressivity directed at others seeking their harm.

This is not the place for that.

Removing that weapon, THREATS, from the possible choices one can make in discussions on this forum makes it safe for all of us from the misguided, delusional, irrational aggressions of others.

Go somewhere else with it. Not here.

Thanks,

Regards,
 
Brothers,

I feel like Dave. I was away from this thread for awhile and it has grown a lot. I really value everything that has been said, and I respect all of you so much for keeping such an emotional issue on an even keel.

I just have a few points to add to what I said previously, some by way of clarification:

  • Let us be clear that the loss of Scott is the fault of no one here. Not the Mods, not his friends (of whom I was one), not anyone who saw significant posts of his. As several have said, this is not a crisis center and we are not major crisis counsellors.
  • It is not our task to prevent suicide. This is a site where survivors can meet to share issues and help each other heal.
  • When I posted to suggest that a discussion of the topic might be a good idea, what I had specifically in mind was a review of the suicide notice. One point that strikes me as very good is the idea of making it more prominent(in red, top of page, whatever). Another might be to make clearer the distinction between discussion of suicide and threatening suicide. I absolutely share dwf's thoughts on this.
One thing I don't see yet is a discussion of how many guys even think of doing this, and why? I would like to see this, simply because it would help me to understand the problem better.

I thought of this frequently as a teenager, and I had it figured how I would do it. I think I didn't act on the idea simply because my self-esteem and sense of personhood were so devastated then that I didn't even care about that. Later the issue didn't come up, simply because I was in such deep denial. More recently, I have thought about it sometimes, but not seriously (or so I would like to think). I think of it at times when I feel rejected and the object of anger on the part of those very close to me, and I think I feel that way because I feel so alone. My guess is that the feeling of being all alone is crucial, but that's just a guess.

As to what I can do personally, I have posted on this on the "Call to arms" forum and will not repeat what I said there.

Love to all,
Larry
 
Originally posted by Jasper50:

Is it acceptable to threaten suicide? No. You're right. We can't handle that kind of thing. But to ignore a suicidal threat (either implied or explicit) is to basically tell the person, "Go ahead!" Threats, hints, allusions to suicide SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED. NEVER!
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Respectfully, I think this is dangerous speaking. Because there are maybe 2 or 3 people here (ok, maybe there are more trained therapy professionals here then that, I just am not aware of that) who have the experience and training to 'handle' such a thing. To say this, it is to put a lot of pressure on many members who are themselves emotionally labile, distressed, healing, and NOT trained to deal with either a truly suicidal person or a manipulative person with attention-seeking behaviors. It seems that this statement, and I speak only as what it says to me, is to put pressure and obligation to every member here to 'save' everyone else here. Truly, we only can save ourself. I have two very close friends, two people who are truly like brothers, who post here. I know them better then I know anyone else here, and I know them better then anyone else here knows them. And still, I can not save either of them.

I think encouraging more positive sharing here can be something good. To provide more hope to those members who are perhaps to new to have it themselves, and to encourage those who 'lurk' here, unsure of whether to join, by showing that YES, we DO heal and get better of this, there IS the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe we should encourage more sharing of positive events.

I realize that just to speak of suicide does not create suicide. But also, to speak of support, encouragement, and to respond to someone who appears suicidal does not PREVENT suicide. No one can do that but the person's own hand. We have the resource numbers posted here, and I think that is positive. But please do not put the responsibility or obligation for the life of another member here on each of us. Let us instead celebrate strength and better choices, and lead by example to those who may be considering it. And then, if they still make the choice, it is THEIR choice.

Leosha
 
This topic is triggering, and I dont know where it should be.

Been there, tried to do it, got mad cos I didnt, thinking WTF, why NOT?

It is like we are discussing something like how the football score is, but the truth is, I got dealt a sh*tty hand, and I always live with that, and so many others too.

Yeah, I tried it twice, and I nearly got there at 11yo and then again later, and believe me, it is not so easy to be in that space, cos it shaped me for the future.

When life seems so impossible to live in, who are we to say that somebody else took the wrong choice?

Who are we to deem them weak or weaker than ourselves knowing that they survived?

How can we perceive anothers' life and hurt, we cant, nobody can.

We can only make of life as we can, even with these past experiences that trigger us so much.

I think we all gain an inner strength from our past, and it can be either positive or negative in our life path.

Who can pacify the little boy who cries day and night, and feels worthless and a stranger to his family and friends?

How do you tell him that his emotions were never his, and not his fault. How do you tell him that ppl care, and even if you do tell hime, can he listen?

No he cant, because nobody ever did,

ste
 
There is a world of difference between someone saying "I feel so depressed, the only way out I can see is suicide" and "you've upset me so much that I'm going to kill myself"

As Danny, AK and Leosha have said, and others, the second statement is a very aggressive threat, and it does affect very strongly those people who are there at the time and then spend many hours furiously sending PMs to help that person, especially if they are feeling fragile themselves.

It does happen, I know it does. And the people who rally round and help do so because they care, but the person who feels that someone elses actions have upset them so much they feel suicidal should really use one of the organisations that are linked from MS. That's where the RIGHT help will be found.

The first statement is one we can help with to a degree, but again I would say go to the right people as well.
But the CAUSES, if they lie within CSA, we can help with. And I think it's better to open up and say that you are having suicidal thoughts than say nothing at all.

Suicide is the ultimate selfish act, the people left behind that love and care for that person become victims instantly. We know what that's like, it ain't any fun at all.
And neither is it any fun to be on the receiving end of any threats, as AK points out so well.

I know that the whole subject of suicide is never going to be easy for us to talk about or deal with, it affects us way to deeply for us to be detached enough for a completely rational discussion.
But the nearer we get to that rational discussion the better it is for everyone.

Ste
"Dave, when I try to do this as child, I then thot, hey you will be out of the hurt, you will be free."

This is where MS can help, many of us have been through these thoughts, so we can share our experiences. We can help someone through their 'hurt' to a better freedom, no - not a better freedom, the ONLY freedom.
We do that by sharing our support, showing that we genuinly care about our friends here.
The support and care we have on offer is for CSA and it's effects, not suicide. But if that's the root of the suicidal thoughts then we're a long way into helping that person.

I hope you're having a better night tonight Ste.

Dave
 
I've always been more frightened of dying before I achieved anything, than I have been afraid of actually dying. Now I believe that I have actually achieved something with my life (I think)I don't tend to have such black thoughts.

Staying Alive is the Answer.

I can't say that I never thought about doing it because I have - I won't!!!!! I've got a chance to live now & I'm going to take that chance!

*I remember one particular instance, just a few months after first coming here - I was in a right state & went for a drive in my car. I just drove around and ended up at a place called Winston. I remembered being there when I was about 18. I parked my car & went for a walk & ended up stood on a bridge some height above the river (the natural route to the other side of the river).

When I looked down, I thought about jumping, but realised that the river was quite deep & slow moving, so I wouldn''t really be hurt by the impact & wouldn't even get swept away. I also realised that I was a far better swimmer than that river could deal with at the time - it was at this point that I actually smiled & realised that I just had to get on with living. Took some time after that to get back to 'normal' (whatever that is).... I'm still here & you're not getting rid of me yet!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
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