Consequences of Premature Sexuality

Youngtrumpet

Registrant
So what if your perp turns out to be another boy your age? Do you blame the adults who must have been behind it. But what if you have formed the trauma bond with the other boy. This is so confusing but could explain why there could be such a strong emotional and affectionate relationship between the two child victims?
 
well my abuser was my brother 2 yo older than me. We were very young. I don't blame anyone. My brother and I have never discussed it so no idea what drove him to do it to me.
 

Dolphin42

Registrant
well my abuser was my brother 2 yo older than me. We were very young. I don't blame anyone. My brother and I have never discussed it so no idea what drove him to do it to me.
Mine is a bit like that too - my CSA abusers were about 12 and I was 8. Today the law wouldn't even consider them to blame because of their youth.
 
Mine is a bit like that too - my CSA abusers were about 12 and I was 8. Today the law wouldn't even consider them to blame because of their youth.
I was 7 and one of my peeps was 12. In my state they definitely would have done something about it. Social services would have likely gotten to the bottom of it. But my stepdad had also abused me and my mother was in a custody battle with my biological father. So reporting it would just messed up my mothers little plans...
 

Dolphin42

Registrant
I was 7 and one of my peeps was 12. In my state they definitely would have done something about it. Social services would have likely gotten to the bottom of it. But my stepdad had also abused me and my mother was in a custody battle with my biological father. So reporting it would just messed up my mothers little plans...
Wow, similar ages, like me. I'm sorry. And yes, situations can be very complicated with family involved.

Yes something should be done about youth abusing youth. I've heard it referred to as "problem sexual behavior" when they are young offenders, and it is very important to address, but it also isn't considered a crime, afaik. I'm not a legal expert, more just noting here that at a certain young age society looks at sexual abuse offenders much differently, with an assumption that someone older sexualized the youthful offenders first.

As an adult now I don't have a lifetime habit of hatred towards my abusers. I had forgotten they existed until a few months ago. So I feel a need to think the same about my offenders to respect society's norms - not a crime, but a problem to work out with respect and privacy and healing.
 
MO-Survivor, I've read thru you summary a number of times. there are definitely points that relate to me. The first one is:
  • There is a third possibility: the zero point – where you live halfway between the two extremes. This creates a vacuum of asexuality and sexual apathy
    • This is dangerous because it can create: apathy, powerlessness, depression, or worse
I've definitely experienced all four: apathy, powerlessness, depression, and worse (suicide)

I also definitely live in this world:

Homo-hetero
  • Usually there is the question: “Am I homosexual?”
 
Wow, similar ages, like me. I'm sorry. And yes, situations can be very complicated with family involved.

Yes something should be done about youth abusing youth. I've heard it referred to as "problem sexual behavior" when they are young offenders, and it is very important to address, but it also isn't considered a crime, afaik. I'm not a legal expert, more just noting here that at a certain young age society looks at sexual abuse offenders much differently, with an assumption that someone older sexualized the youthful offenders first.

As an adult now I don't have a lifetime habit of hatred towards my abusers. I had forgotten they existed until a few months ago. So I feel a need to think the same about my offenders to respect society's norms - not a crime, but a problem to work out with respect and privacy and healing.
I don’t think it would be considered a crime at those ages. But I think social services would have pried until they found out about my stepfather. Like how did these kids know anything about this...
 

Winterfr3sh

Registrant
The Paedo part was really good for me. I wish I’d have known that info 15 years ago. I put myself through a lot of excruciating shame over my boy attractions, not realizing that I was really just looking for healing externally, as it says in the summary you posted. My therapist has helped me with that since 2016.
It goes without saying that I would never hurt a child. In fact the more time I spend with real boys, the easier it becomes not to project/fantasize about them.
 

Chale

Registrant
So I dug out the book, "Traumasexuality," again this weekend. Chapter 8 in the book is titled: "Consequences of the Damage Caused by Premature Sexuality." I found it to be extremely insightful / helpful, and the author states it is the key chapter in the book. I will warn you - the content can be TRIGGERING, so please read below with that in mind. Some of the triggering is caused by the testimonials in the book, which I don't have below in my notes - so hopefully it won't trigger but will only be helpful. As an aside, I have actually held the attitude recently that I mostly welcome triggers since they make me feel and think more deeply than I would normally. They can help me uncover the frozen kid within me; because accessing those feelings can be difficult for me, and I know without accessing those feelings and the frozen parts of me, healing isn't possible. That said, I'm not encouraging anyone else to trigger themselves. I'm only expressing my own recent thoughts about triggers. You have to know yourself and what is okay and what is not.

What I like most in this book is:
  • The author is a CSA survivor, who counseled thousands of men who were CSA survivors
  • The book lists out the impacts of CSA on our lives - in the many varied forms they can take. You can definitely identify with what he talks about
  • The author presents things in a very non-judgemental (no condemnation) way because he presents matter-of-fact: "You were not aware this was happening. It just happened while you were growing up"
  • There is hope written all throughout the book. He helps bring understanding to why we think and do some of the things we do, with a belief (backed by his experiences with thousands of men) that it is possible to heal and recover by addressing those parts of us inside that are frozen and / or were not allowed to develop when we were young
The next chapter deals with, "Repairing the Damage." I look forward to reading it.

Below are the notes I took on Chapter 8. I hope you find them helpful.
------------------------------
Chapter 8: Consequences of the Damage Caused by Premature Sexuality
Introduction
  • Traumasexuality =
    • A temporary sexual identity with 3 important characteristics:
      • Internal conflict in sexual desires
      • Active victimhood
      • Chronic questions concerning sexual and / or sex identity (this possible temporary identity can last a lifetime)
Internal Conflict
  • Internal Conflict = the struggle that plays out between your own sexuality and the imprint of the sexuality of the perpetrator
    • You live with two sex drives: your own, and that of the other who has established himself / herself in you, but it feels like they both come from you
    • You can live in extremes:
      • Your own sexuality is dominant. However, even in this, you have a chronic feeling that, ‘there is something wrong with me,’ because you cannot give yourself completely to another in sexuality
      • The perpetrator’s sexuality is dominant. Your own development stops when the abuse starts
        • This is most common when the abuse occurs at an early age
        • You act out and repeat the abuse without knowing it
        • You have rigid sexual patterns and never manage to progress to a real relationship
      • There is a third possibility: the zero point – where you live halfway between the two extremes. This creates a vacuum of asexuality and sexual apathy
        • This is dangerous because it can create: apathy, powerlessness, depression, or worse
Active Victimhood
  • Active Victimhood = the urge to repeat the sexual trauma and the painful struggle that accompanies it
    • Without being aware, you have a long-term relationship with the perpetrator and the presence of a third person is always felt in your relationships
      • This sexuality derails your own sex drive / life
      • Partners do not understand the compulsive behaviors with addictive elements
      • This usually leads to sexuality that doesn’t have a satisfying end
      • This is very difficult to deal with and can lead to hopelessness, because there isn’t anyone to talk to who will listen or can understand
    • The perpetrator’s influence always comes into play and always wins (implied outside this statement is: unless / until you are able to address your past CSA)
  • Active victimhood = the drive to repeat the sexual trauma is an attempt to process the trauma and regain control over what you have lost
  • This pattern will repeat and repeat until you have dealt with your sexual abuse
  • You have lost your own sexual control, creativity, and inventiveness, and you hardly even notice you are repeating the abuse. But you ask yourself why you are doing the things you are doing
  • A pattern can always be reconstructed from active victimhood:
    • You have a reason to act out sexually – usually you feel alone
    • There is a subsequent sexual event
    • There is a conclusion, and you are not typically satisfied or happy with it
  • Repeating the abuse can occur in three variations (not all mutually exclusive). You do this without realizing what you are doing:
    • Repetition as a victim
    • Repetition as a perpetrator (note: this doesn't mean you become a perpetrator, unless you have fully embraced this idea)
    • Repetition as a witness
  • Repetition as a victim:
    • You repeat your abuse with yourself in the position of the victim
    • The focus is on the person who has caused your trauma
    • You seek the same type of perpetrator and perform the same sexual actions as your CSA
    • Repetition as a victim includes the idea of Projections:
      • Projections = attaching characteristics of the perpetrator to someone else and then attribute the same control to that person
      • You see people and believe they want sex with you
      • You also sexualize contact with someone, and sex and intimacy become one in the same in your approach. However, intimacy is usually missing
    • Several things that can also happen that helps drive repetition as a victim:
      • You saw the perpetrator as a father figure
      • The abuse became something deemed natural and pleasant
      • You became addicted to relationships because the rational side of your brain no longer worked, and you live in a perpetual state of being in love to keep your feelings occupied and absent of the painful side of the abuse
      • You desire to engage in impossible relationships. Example: a homosexual man seeking contact with heterosexual or married men
      • You long to be specially chosen
  • Repetition as perpetrator:
    • This variation of repeating the abuse involves introjections instead of projections
      • Introjections = you include the perpetrator’s characteristics / behaviors into your own and consider them your own. You don’t realize this occurs, it happens automatically
      • Introjections are facilitated by the fact that all boys need a masculine role model. And for many boys, they have no choice but to take the perpetrator as their masculine example
    • Three variations of pepetratorship:
      • False perpetratorship = you believe you were the perpetrator / initiator in your relationship with the perpetrator. You believe you hold sole responsibility – usually facilitated by believing there was reciprocity in your abuse (your perp gave you things, you agreed, etc.)
      • Completely embracing pepetratorship = you believe you are the same as the pepetrator, that sexual experiences (even with children) are natural, and you have no access to your conscience. You can no longer feel
      • Rejecting perpetratorship = you do not want to be like the perpetrator. This can lead you to never wanting to expose your masculine sex drive and you tend to emasculate yourself and want to remain a boy forever
        • You can reject / despise your own adult body
        • You can have such disgust that you avoid orgasm because of the identification with your perpetrator and instances of sexual abuse
        • This can drive men who become fathers to fear becoming a perpetrator to their own children, and this can prevent making healthy connections with their children
  • Repetition as a witness:
    • The deep craving for a witness – the desire to be seen and for someone to stop the abuse, can drive repetition as a witness
    • This can manifest itself through exposing yourself when it is not appropriate
    • You can take on the role of a voyeur when repeating as a witness. Looking at pornography and unknowingly looking for sexual scenes similar to your own abuse is one way this can occur
Identity Questions
  • Identity questions are rooted in the dualism of: your own sexuality vs. the pepetrator’s sexual imprint, and of masculine identity and sexual identity
  • Sexual identity can be:
    • Homo-hetero
    • Homosexual
    • Paedosexual
  • Homo-hetero
    • Usually there is the question: “Am I homosexual?”
      • This question relates to questions about masculinity / femininity
      • This question relates to passive / active behavior
      • In culture, usually: Homo = feminine = passive, and Hetero = masculine = active. This drives some of these questions
    • “… you have to realize that it is not the homosexual force or lust that presents itself but the repetition of a sexually attractive trauma that replays itself in a homosexual context.”
    • There are typically three (predictable) responses:
      • A group of men that longs for and enjoys homosexual contact
      • A group of men afraid of homosexual contact and avoid it
      • A group of men disgusted by homosexual behavior
  • Homosexual
    • Your own homosexuality as a boy is confused through an abuse experience with a man
    • You also might:
      • Be convinced you are homosexual and later it appears you are not at all
      • Find that others believe you are homosexual while you are certain you are not
  • Paedosexual
    • Some % of men find they desire sex with a boy and do not understand why they want this, and the idea is (usually) abhorrent to them
    • This is driven because the abuse drives the frozen and authentic kids into the background. They are waiting and waiting to come back into your life
      • In your search to find yourself again (the frozen and authentic parts) you can look outside yourself for the lost parts of yourself
        • These are projections towards children or young people who represent the lost parts of you
        • You will look for boys you see something of yourself in: you can see they are damaged, and you want to help them recover
        • Because what is inside you is not yet whole and still hurts, you attempt to heal outside yourself – in others
          • This can take on a legitimate life, such as helping kids through youth work, but could also take on a sexual aspect that is destructive
    • Paedophilia as a sexual orientation does not exist. Instead the feelings relate to the survivor themselves, in an attempt to externally heal themselves (which will never work)
      • Seeking out boys is seeking to find what you lost in ‘not feeling’ anything. You are trying to undo your own division (the division of the frozen and authentic parts from the rest of you) and heal the pain of the separation
    • Other characteristics that identify this:
      • Looking for boys of the same age as when their own abuse first took place
      • Looking for boys who looked like themselves at the age of their own abuse
      • Getting stuck on an age – typically the same age as the abuse
      • You can also look for adult men where you see the damaged child in them, and you attempt to help them recover the lost parts of themselves
    • These attempts to find and heal the lost parts of yourself, externally (whether in boys or men) is impossible
      • The only alternative is looking inside yourself instead of outside yourself
      • You must turn yourself inside out. Then you will see your own division and decry the perpetrator living in you, and you will bring back to life the lost frozen and authentic kids in yourself – who need your help
    • You can also seek girls the age you were when you were first abused
      • Searching images of young girls later in life is an attempt to return to the moment in which you still had control over your own sexual development
  • Other questions / thoughts about sexual identity
    • Sexual abuse prevents you from achieving a complete masculine identity
    • Anal sexual abuse can cause several things in addition to other abuse:
      • You have two bodily areas associated with the sexual abuse instead of one which can drive additional fears & behaviors
      • It can cause you to adopt a passive sexual role
      • You can question your own masculinity because of what happened, and your inability to stop it. You can suffer with questions surrounding femininity, and that can then elicit behaviors accordingly:
        • Dressing as a woman
        • Behaving as a woman
        • Seducing a man in the role of a woman
Thank you for sharing! I bought this book after seeing this post, read the entire thing cover to cover. I had no idea how cathartic it would be to get this knowledge. I’ve never had anyone summarize this so clearly. I’ve known about the abuse for years, with vague memories, but only recently became aware of just how damaging it was and only reading this book did the pieces really come together. So many years spent asking “what is wrong with me?” And here the answer fits so neatly and perfectly into my life. as much as I feel lots of emotions, relief is the biggest one just to understand my life and the things I’ve struggled with after so many years of searching and not knowing. really appreciate you sharing this.
 

MO-Survivor

Greeter
Staff member
I don’t understand what “Repetition as a perpetrator” means. Isn’t someone a perpetrator or not? Unless you have fully embraced the idea? There are not levels of a perpetrator. I don’t think I could believe that.
Hey Youngtrumpet,

The whole book is translated from Dutch to English and not always translated well. That said, I think the sub-heading is probably what the author meant. However, when we hear "perpetrator" we automatically think of someone who has acted out / perpetrated on someone else. In the author's definition this doesn't necessarily mean repeating the abuse to the point of actually, physically molesting someone. Instead, it means a CSA survivor is driven to resolve all the internal conflict by looking externally. And this can play out in terms of fantasies, porn, wanting to build relationships & intimacy with boys, trying to rescue / fix boys that appear to be broken, or actually perpetrating.
 

MO-Survivor

Greeter
Staff member
MO-Survivor, I've read thru you summary a number of times. there are definitely points that relate to me. The first one is:
  • There is a third possibility: the zero point – where you live halfway between the two extremes. This creates a vacuum of asexuality and sexual apathy
    • This is dangerous because it can create: apathy, powerlessness, depression, or worse
I've definitely experienced all four: apathy, powerlessness, depression, and worse (suicide)

I also definitely live in this world:

Homo-hetero
  • Usually there is the question: “Am I homosexual?”
Yes, I have read multiple accounts / posts from guys here who seem to be stuck living in the "zero point." I wouldn't have necessarily seen that as the starting point towards depression or suicide until he connected the dots in the book. But it makes a lot of sense. I hope you are getting good counsel at this point in your life @randomnumber - so that you can make your way out of that "zero point" and towards connectedness & relationship :)
 

MO-Survivor

Greeter
Staff member
Thank you for sharing! I bought this book after seeing this post, read the entire thing cover to cover. I had no idea how cathartic it would be to get this knowledge. I’ve never had anyone summarize this so clearly. I’ve known about the abuse for years, with vague memories, but only recently became aware of just how damaging it was and only reading this book did the pieces really come together. So many years spent asking “what is wrong with me?” And here the answer fits so neatly and perfectly into my life. as much as I feel lots of emotions, relief is the biggest one just to understand my life and the things I’ve struggled with after so many years of searching and not knowing. really appreciate you sharing this.
Chale, I agree completely! This man has such deep insight into CSA, the consequences of it, and the road to healing. I said it in the initial post - he provides hope for so many of us that have lived a life asking - as you say - "What is wrong with me? Why do I think like this? Why am I so 'stuck' in these repetitive (unhealthy) thought patterns?" The idea that every CSA survivor will repeat the abuse - in some way - explains a lot. Especially with the additional understanding of why we would do that. Understanding the needs, and the inability to process through the complexities of the abuse, and neural connections created by CSA all bring light to what has been hidden to us for so long.

One of the things I went around thinking after reading this chapter was: "Why didn't someone tell me all this sooner?" Think how much pain it would have spared us from. But the truth is: no one knew what to do with male CSA survivors in the 1970s - no one wanted to talk about it. Really, even in the 1980s we were still in the same place culturally. The 1990s and 2000s started shining a light on the issue, and more people started looking into the effects of male CSA. And the knowledge just grew from there, along with the # of people trained to help male CSA survivors. So as frustrating as it is that this understanding took so long to come about - I am SO thankful we have it now and it can help us heal.
 
It would be great if they would teach some of this in high school health class even if they just throw out the basic concepts. That way kids who have been abused might learn what is wrong with them and can get help a lot sooner in life.
 
Nice to see you back on the board MO. I had to nod in agreement as I read your post to Chale above... "Why didn't someone tell me all this sooner?" I'm one of the older members of this community and I've lived the horror of this all for a very long time. I spent six years in therapy while completing a graduate degree in psychology and NONE of this was part of my training. I'm grieving at the moment over all the pain I was unable to address simply because I didn't understand what it was all about. It is such a profound relief to finally put the pieces together as the man who wrote this book has done. I've not bought it in large measure because I've done my own research... through life and eventually through study. I may still buy a copy. I'm definitely appreciating how you're presenting this on the board.

The world is just beginning to acknowledge that men suffer too from trauma inflicted early in life. There is a post on this forum that deserves attention, so I'll mention it here. There is within this piece a link to an interview with a psychologist who wrote a book titled Men Too, about the impact of sexual trauma on boys and men. It is excellent.

 

MO-Survivor

Greeter
Staff member
It would be great if they would teach some of this in high school health class even if they just throw out the basic concepts. That way kids who have been abused might learn what is wrong with them and can get help a lot sooner in life.
Oh man - I couldn't agree more. As I see kids or men I know that exhibit behaviors that are often signs of CSA, I think, "Man, what can be done?" Because obviously we shouldn't walk around seeing CSA around every corner. This is unhealthy and can actually be a symptom of our own unresolved issues (the desire for a witness driving us to "find" other survivors). Also - how many guys here didn't tell / wouldn't tell even if they were asked by someone if they were abused? As an adult who asked the question you would then find yourself in a position where, 1) the poor kid didn't / couldn't divulge their abuse and therefore you can't help them, 2) you may have put yourself in a very bad spot with parents & family - esp. if there is abuse occurring and it's by a parent.

So, when you take those things into account - something like what you suggest is an awesome idea. Because again - it's not just enough to stop active CSA, it's also necessary to get kids therapy to help put them back together before they become adults and suffer like we have. The idea of introducing this as a segment of public school health classes would be a great way to do this. It's something I'll have to put in the back of my mind as an item that may be something actionable I might want to pursue :) Thanks RN
 

MO-Survivor

Greeter
Staff member
Nice to see you back on the board MO. I had to nod in agreement as I read your post to Chale above... "Why didn't someone tell me all this sooner?" .... I'm grieving at the moment over all the pain I was unable to address simply because I didn't understand what it was all about. It is such a profound relief to finally put the pieces together as the man who wrote this book has done....

There is a post on this forum that deserves attention, so I'll mention it here. There is within this piece a link to an interview with a psychologist who wrote a book titled Men Too, about the impact of sexual trauma on boys and men. It is excellent.
Hey Visitor :)

Yeah - I had posted briefly on another thread I would be out of pocket last week. I took a whirlwind trip last week to a couple colleges with my daughter. She had her choice down to two colleges, and we hadn't been to any campuses except for a few in-state. We flew on Mon, Wed, and Fri - tiring but worth it. And the travel was great - no real issues. And the end goal of helping her make a decision was accomplished! :) My T wanted us to skip our session last week because she felt it was so important for my daughter and I that I was "present" in the moment during our trip. So I didn't take any CSA books, and I stayed offline. Unfortunately, I had to field multiple texts - some from my wife (which wasn't unfortunate LOL), some from work, and some from soccer parents. But by and large I was present in the moment - when I wasn't nodding off because I was so tired from all the travel. Great memories for us, and I know we both feel closer after taking the trip.

I'm sorry you are having to grieve about all the pain - I can 100% relate. I think I am grieving that too. And like you, not just for myself - but for all of us. That said, I'm very grateful for all those (like you, Visitor) that have done the hard work and research to come up with answers that are helpful and hopeful. Without hope, future survivors will live like we did for years: lonely, confused, hating ourselves, and lacking in hope for true healing.

I will check out the link and will take a look at the book you mentioned. Thanks again!
 
Its very easy to look back at kids behaviors and how they turned out 10 years later and see they had issues. Whether it be sexual or physical abuse, parents with drug or alcohol addictions etc. I've told my nephews and nieces when they hit high school that they will meet kids who party hard and it looks like fun but from my own experiences with friends I can tell you those kids have major issues in their lives and they are using the alcohol and drugs to deal with those issues. You'll learn in your 20s which of those kids ended up alcoholics, drug addicts or dead. Don't know if this helped them at all.
 
Sadly, the world doesn't want to know about trauma because to acknowledge it is to raise the question of what we need to do so it doesn't happen. Parents don't want sex education is school... imagine how resistant they would be to opening the Pandora's Box of trauma in its myriad forms. I'm coming from a 12 Step meeting that ended a moment ago in which we read the 5th Step about telling another person the exact nature of our wrongs. Fortunately, the book we read has a long paragraph about the reality some struggles are rooted in trauma which requires attention. I took the occasion to identify myself as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and it opened the door so others could talk about the trauma they experienced. So much happens in families that is traumatic. One woman spoke about the fact she only experienced neglect... unaware of how traumatic that can be for a child.

Reading the horrific stories of men posting here I find it hard to imagine this epidemic of child abuse will ever end and the best we will be able to do is what we're doing here... helping each other reclaim our lives... or for many to claim them for the first time. I know there are laws on the books that mandate certain people to report to authorities when they believe they are encountering child abuse... but where will all those children go if they're taken from their home... to a foster care system rife with trauma itself? Or how can families be brought to health so the child can remain when much of the damage goes back generations and is rooted in poverty, violence and inequality? This is an amazingly challenging issue. Perhaps talking about it will help. I certainly hope so... but I have little confidence elected leaders will want to tackle this issue. But at least we have one another and can do our work of healing right here. I'm grateful for that.
 

Dolphin42

Registrant
@Visitor I believe when society begins to view and treat childhood sexual abuse trauma victimization as a family disease, then maybe we could reduce the occurrences considerably. Treating it as a crime keeps it more hidden.

My state just did a similar change in stance with respect to drug possession laws, treatment first then jail if treatment fails twice. But then again, dependency treatment is much better known than all the variety of mental illness that sexual trauma can give an individual.
 

Chale

Registrant
Chale, I agree completely! This man has such deep insight into CSA, the consequences of it, and the road to healing. I said it in the initial post - he provides hope for so many of us that have lived a life asking - as you say - "What is wrong with me? Why do I think like this? Why am I so 'stuck' in these repetitive (unhealthy) thought patterns?" The idea that every CSA survivor will repeat the abuse - in some way - explains a lot. Especially with the additional understanding of why we would do that. Understanding the needs, and the inability to process through the complexities of the abuse, and neural connections created by CSA all bring light to what has been hidden to us for so long.

One of the things I went around thinking after reading this chapter was: "Why didn't someone tell me all this sooner?" Think how much pain it would have spared us from. But the truth is: no one knew what to do with male CSA survivors in the 1970s - no one wanted to talk about it. Really, even in the 1980s we were still in the same place culturally. The 1990s and 2000s started shining a light on the issue, and more people started looking into the effects of male CSA. And the knowledge just grew from there, along with the # of people trained to help male CSA survivors. So as frustrating as it is that this understanding took so long to come about - I am SO thankful we have it now and it can help us heal.
i had the same thought. ive seen therapists and mentioned thinking there may have been abuse in my childhood, vague memories, etc and discussed with multiple qualified people and even once i started remembering details while working with a therapist, no one brought up just how damaging that reality could be and how so many of my issues can relate back to it. i guess the information is just not available to most circles, even in the fields of therapy.
 
Top