Confused.....

[dark empathy]

@hh, from the surviver's perspective I can say the fear of hurting the person we love is extremely! real, or at least it has been for me.
Even before I met my lady, I regularly suffered nightmares in which I was accused of sa, sometimes by a female friend, I felt as if any form of desire I had was dangerous, often I felt as if my hands were blades, as though I would cut anyone I touched. This is because for me,there was literally no way I could conceive of sexual love without a person being hurt. I always assumed, even when reading descriptions in books one partner was always giving up something at the expense of another, that "love" in marital terms was essentially a deeply seated friendship in which two people were alternatively willing to give the other pleasure.

I'll also say that society's massive emphasis on "men as dangerous predators" doesn't help this either, ---- indeed that was pretty major part in my own abuse, making me feel responsible.

when in july of 2015, I was forced by the pressure of my own feeling to admit what I felt for my lady, even though she was with someone else at the time, I straight off told her she was better off without me, that I couldn't share my life with her because I had no life to share. The one absolutely break down screaming panic attack I have had with my wife was when I thought I'd hurt her.

I still! am terrified of hurting her, it is the thing I fear most. I cannot understand why! she loves me, it is incomprehensible, indeed frequently she will get mildly exasperated with when respond to her telling me she loves me with a heart felt "thank you"

It is absolutely senseless to me that she loves me, I see nothing in myself that would justify this at all, indeed I can only put it down to divine grace.

The one thing I have managed to do is accept that my lady does! love me. I don't know how I know this, I can't even say it's a thing I know rationally, but against all conceivable odds she does, a fact I cannot deny anymore than I could deny the sky was blue, it's just something there, evident, real, not something that needs to be questioned, just something that is.

 

[Ceremony]

Hi Eggshells, I'm glad you've started here, and worry it seems to you, you're not showing him strength. That's a box I think will be very tough to get out of. Once in, how can one manage to take care of themselves? I hope that's understood in the caring way I intend?

I live with an abusive, toxic wife. You are not like that!!

 

[Eggshells]

"....help them to experience unconditional love."
I think that's the root of everything else....trust, patience, understanding, security.
This must be what I have to aim for, and stop being selfish. Just be present for him at all times. Thank you, HH.

I have another question, though. If our survivors claim to be 'not normal' and for us to keep being normal....do they consider us 'not normal' and when they are coping that is their 'normal?'

I apologize for all these issues. Clarity is way too far away from me right now, but thanks to all of you, I know I will get there, hoping to bring my survivor alongside me.

E

 

[Eggshells]

I agree with you, Luke, it breaks your heart to hurt the ones you love most. I guess that's his issue by not telling me any details. I just have to be patient in waiting...it may never come up, but only God knows.

E

 

[HealingHope]

 

[Ceremony]

Eggshells, my wife explicitly tells me she's normal, and my childhood is not normal. Then to what I see about the logic of what's been my life, she's sure it's not normal, and I've said so all along. There's a lot of history hidden there, and maybe this one thing will help clear that part up about my wife and myself.

I explained in some detail to my girlfriend, what my childhood problems were. I explained how all the problems of my childhood affected me. I explained why I felt nervous or had anxiety, and that sometimes I did get depressed. But, in my early 20's that was not exacerbated by having become married to my pregnant fiance', finding family housing and financing to go to university, taking a full time course load and working college work study 30+ hours a week. So I crashed! I crashed because my wife physically, emotionally and mentally attacked me. And it was horrible abuse by my wife. At the same time, my mother did some things to reject me by refusing to babysit for ONE night to take my wife to a movie. I was "using her". Then at the same time, a race hate asshole sent us hate mail of clipped articles and messages of clip and paste words about how our mixed marriage is an abomination to God.

I hate racists. It's not tolerance, I hate them!!

So, I bring a lot of abnormal anger to our marriage now. I've admitted to her I'm not normal. she's maintained she is. But, the truth of her, she's an abusing asshole. If you're not an asshole, don't sweat it. If you can go through the day and not nitpick, stress over, scream at or all the other heavy stress inducing bullshit a horrible wife can do, then don't sweat it.

To me you would be the sweetest, purest love of all creation, to just hug once a month. Kiss once a year, hold hands once a lifetime. So, damn.... If you show love, he's got a lot to learn, I've had a lot to learn, and I've learned it and keep learning it. My strength is to not quit and keep learning. It's horrible, I hate myself sometimes, but sometimes I don't.

I want love so bad it crushes my soul and then I reach out sometimes and maybe see some of what it's like. But, for others to know why I'm still sad, it's got to be their ability to look through my eyes. AND How hard is that?! Of course it's hard. Like, to see that I'm happy someone is married to a loving wife, but their marriage makes me sad. I just need that accepted, and don't coddle me, but know I will be sad. Does that make sense?

To me you, like my wife, might have been what I saw as someone who is normal, and my sense of self, as not normal, and if I warned you, and still got accepted??? Did I??? Get accepted??

I don't think so, it's a perception that was accepted. An expectation was accepted. I'm going to be different..... Riiiight?! That's the expectation that ruins everything. Add the ongoing never ending abusive stress from my wife and I'm always ruined. It's too much to explain, and too much a burden to share, but I remain crushed by not sharing it. So, here I dump it again. I hope to not turn off others, with my endless complaining, but what do I bring...

Do I listen enough, care enough, try hard enough??

My failures weigh me down and there are a lot of triggers to push guys like me down. Damn; another topic to write a book....

 

[dark empathy]

For me it was never a question of any kind of "normal@ indeed as someone with a disability "normal" is a pretty loaded concept anyway.

I would myself put it otherwise.

After my abuse I spent a significant amount of time reassuring myself was fine, ignoring the danger sygnals completely ignoring my genophobia, the fact that I was 24 and had never been kissed let alone had a girlfriend, the fact I panicked in crowds etc.

I was forced to recognize this in 2007 by the emotional equivalent of being hit by a ten tonne truck, after which point I was in a position where even doing very basic, everyday things was a struggle just because of the constant pressure of memories, emotional upheavals etc.

I remember for example one dreadful new years eve party in 2009, when my parents had asked me to go. Parties are a strain for me anyway (I do not like crowds), but I liked the people there individually and I didn't want to be a hypochondriac, especially since I'd had a couple of panic attacks and moments when I absolutely avoided! other people previously (somewhat to my mum's displeasure).

I spent pretty much the entire time at the party hiding in a corner everyone in mono syllables. I castigated myself constantly for being unfair and unfriendly and being nasty to people, and thought that I was one target, that everyone could see I was in a mess, that I was radiating vulnerability and over all disgust and most people there probably avoided me.

On the way back I actually apologised to my parents, they just said I came across as quiet, yet the next day I basically had to hang out in my room reading since I was so drained by the experience.

this is it. Dealing with emotions in recovery, even as far as doing basic things is frankly a strain!
I had moments when I fugued so badly I could barely stand upright and had literally to go and lie down, often at the expense of others.

As well as this general problem though, there is a rather different side to recovery which is nastier and creates different problemsl, that is I referred to previously, the desire not to hurt the ones you love.

For myself, and other survivers as well, there is a perception of worthlessness so extreme that it is unavoidable. I still have it, I apologise to my lady on a basis often for things she says do not need apologising for, simpy because I am aware how much that angel has given up to be with me.

In my case, particularly since I have been to counselling and know a little of where I am, I can at least admit that my lady does! want to be with me, and that for better or worse we are pretty much indivisible now, indeed possibly if anything we are too! interdependent upon each other. had I met my lady earlier in my recovery likely I would've created distance between us, assuming that she only wanted to be with me of her astonishing and fearful goodness.

As it stands I still! feel a regular and constant sense of gratitude towards her, each and every day, but I can at least go as far as admitting that yes she does perhaps need me as much as I need her.

Hope some of this makes sense.

Luke.

 

[Eggshells]

@HH - I know exactly how you feel...if his actions towards you are real or not. I am doing my best to be his 'normal' so that hopefully, he will realize how great normal can be. It is really confusing most of the time. All I wish for is sincerity, not to be lied to. I'm sure your survivor will come back to you soon, HH. He must be needing to cope while trying not to hurt you. Love and prayers to you both.

@Ceremony - If your wife causes you so much grief, maybe you need some time apart so you both can process things and analyze what is going on in your relationship. You are already dealing with your personal issues, another issue about her will not help at all. You are wanting to receive love, that is what we are here for. To show you our love and support for your complete healing. You are not alone in your journey, we stand beside you because we know you will get through this.

@Dark Empathy - Yes, 'normal' is a pretty loaded term. What I wanted to know is if his words/actions toward me are real. I am guilty of thinking/judging him. I am a human being, expecting honesty as I give honesty towards others. It just hurts to know the person you trust the most might not even be worth trusting, or is planning against you.
I am truly happy that you found a partner whom you can rely on. I'm sorry, I just feel so alone having to deal with csa, and not connecting to him at a level I want...just continue to hope and pray that he will finally realize he is ready to do the dirty work to the path of healing and stop suppressing

E

 

[Eggshells]

If anyone has a grasp at my 'normal' question, please do share. If a survivor claims he is not 'normal' while we are normal, does the coping strategy become their 'normal, and their lives with their partners 'not normal' for them? Do they want a regular, ordinary family just because that is expected of them by society? So they can show other people they are 'normal'? Are we just a front/facade, so others won't think less of them?

Pardon my questions.....I am confused and desperate. I know these are questions that come from my insecurities. I am so broken, sad, hurt, alone, rejected, abandoned by the one person I thought loved me and married 20 years ago. The person I least expect to hurt me. The person I gave my heart to. The person I thought loved me more than anything.

I apologize, again for venting. It's hard to act normal in an abnormal situation. Plus, special occasions are coming up, Fathers' day, anniversary, birthday....happy, joyful days....not helping my issues at all.

E

Thank you,
E

 

[HealingHope]

Eggshells, you have it exactly right. Knowing what's real is so important and I think is the basis of our confusion as supporters.
Thank you too for your comforting words today, they brought me such peace. Much love HH.

 

[HealingHope]

I apologize, again for venting. It's hard to act normal in an abnormal situation. Plus, special occasions are coming up, Fathers' day, anniversary, birthday....happy, joyful days....not helping my issues at all.
E

I also know how powerful anniversaries are, it's been behind my significant wobble these past few weeks too. They seem to shine light on all we have lost and for my part patterns that seem to repeat time and again.
We never really know how the next anniversary or event will feel until we're in it and I've just learnt to tackle it day by day, and this time with help from so many here I'm trying to tackle and reframe my expectations differently.
We're here Eggshells, keep reaching out

 

[WG]

Hello Eggshells - Yes, indeed, special occasions can be especially difficult. We who are survivors can relate to that, too. I'm a Dad, and , of course, I had a Dad. Mixed feelings there every June. He's long dead. I have some good memories and some bad ones, too. They used to be triggering. Now I look at that in a different light. He wasn't all good (although there were plenty of things he could do well), he wasn't all bad (although there were the times when I wished he would not hit me or shove me or burn me with cigarettes). There's a balance. It has taken me years of therapy and years of talking to get to that place. My Mom was equally as difficult - sometimes moreso. Mother's Day can be a problem. She now has dimentia and has returned to the "get out I hate you" routine from my teenage years - so I haven't gone to see her for around 3 years now. I can distance myself as a grown man and not take what was dished out at age 6. I'm not 6 and I have other things to do with my time. My neighbor was the perpetrator - for years. Again, a man. Lot's of untangling on my part with my therapist. I was a boy and one day I was to become a grown adult. A man - just like my Dad and just like my perpetrator. (Except my perp was 'just a male, not a man') Now what do I do? Awful place to be when you're turning 13. But Father's Day over the years for me has been so incredibly precious. My children all are very loving and giving adults. We talk and laugh, we see one another a few times a month. I am so very blessed! These anniversaries are what I make of it. Yes, the memories are there. Yes, I do feel that - and I have the tools now to walk through what I need to do and not fall apart.
I guess all of this is to say, Eggshells, is, yes, come here to vent. Come here to talk to us. If you want the truth about something, you go to the source, right? Well, here we are.

 

[Ceremony]

I don't think my response about "normal" was clear. It's not about me, my f'ed up situation with my wife. Please ignore me about that.... I was using that for comparison purposes, in that you can see that you're not doing those things, and in that way, you may see you are the normal and like me, he considers himself the abnormal. Whatever brought his on, that's what matters, and that you're seeing it as a thing about defining you, what your marriage could mean, and was he using you are all valid worries and fears of how we think.

What I want to think I'm conveying to this discussion, is that it's complexity will drive you far deeper into distraction than can be coped with alone. Therefore, I do encourage therapy for you and more posts here. I wish you had time to read back into the depth of concerns that have been discussed here over the years. It takes a lot of time, most of us don't have. I have for some time, but time changes....

I stated for you, for you to think that, YES, we survivor men, who haven't yet begun any healing, or started to tap into healing potential, or have gotten to thriving may all have at some point needed a relationship that made them feel more normal than our mind allowed us. It's very nuanced, and not cut and dried about using that person in the relationship. Which is why I told you that I prefaced my girlfriends staying with me, with the trauma I experienced as a child. I did that for her, so she could have a chance to reject me. She didn't, but did she really get it? Did she think, ohh, he's past that now, it's a thing he can talk about, and it won't mess with how our relationship is supposed to be. That's expectation. A horrible trap for a man like me, and I promote it's a trap for every victim of a sex crime. Any gender.

We get hit by this in ways we didn't expect, and because so many of us suppress the trauma for decades (4 decades for me), it's a problem that had built the relationship. And that's not fair. Not fair to the survivor and not fair to the partner nor family/ies. A very big circle of issues is at play.


I know a survivor could push themselves toward a relationship that becomes a perception of normal. I did. Did you husband, and was he wrong to do so? Does it evoke deception to you? Especially if he hadn't the will to preface any of his relationship toward you with his past? Does that really mean deception. I say no with this nuance. Survivors deceived themselves, and because it's suppressed, it's not a perpetrated deception. There's no malice aforethought involved, beyond making the pain disappear.

 

[Eggshells]

Hope everyone had a great weekend. Hoping for a good week ahead of us.

Normal, natural, real....I don't know what it is anymore.

I just realized what they say, "love conquers all" may have some truth to it. No matter how much heartache and pain we receive from our survivors, we still support and love them even more. That love justifies everything, even if the situation is not right (coping mechanisms). Who are we to judge, right?

Kudos to us, partners. We may not receive the appreciation we deserve from our survivors, but we are absolutely here for each other. Hugs to everyone here. I am so grateful for your understanding and patience with me.

Praying for clarity to replace this confusion I/we are stuck with....

E

 

[dark empathy]

Normal, natural, real.

I have never understood what that means. Lucky for me I have found a lady who doesn't understand what that means either!

I also will say that you are right, at least in my case the cliché @love conquers all@ really was! what I needed to heal, and I am eternally grateful to my lady for that, indeed she frequently gets mildly exasperated when I actually respond with @thank you@ if she tells me she loves me.

Either way, while it is by no means an easy path, yes! it and will get better.

Luke