circumcision

circumcision
T

Todd

New Registrant
I am a survivor of aggravated sexual assault.
Aggravated sexual assault is described in the Criminal Code of Canada as a sexual assault in which the attacker " who, in committing a sexual assault, woounds, maims, disfigures or endaangers the life of the complainant." The maximum sentance is life in prison.
Justice has not been served, I will never experience my full sex life as nature intended.
I can recall struggling against my bonds and screaming from the excruciating pain from the inhuman torture. I shut my eyes trying to shut out reality. It was dark, but the pain and my ignored screams where still there. The repressed traumatic memory came back to me after I went to a website www.cirp.org and
I disowned my father who let a Jewish doctor mutilate me.
I suffer from an unshakable depression.
The words father or God make me want to spit.
 
Todd,

I am really shocked at hearing this, and it can be massive to say the least.

I do not need to go to that website, as I am sure I have been there and it was a horrible experience.

Circumcision should never be performed unless there is a life threatening need.

People ignore this torture that goes on, every day
in the world.

take care,

ste
 
Todd,

I am so sorry to read of your experience. If you are clinically depressed I hope you are seeking professional help about this.

I was circumcised as a newborn infant, so I have no memory of it. Back then it was being done for so-called "hygiene" reasons, but really it was just the "done thing". All through high school I never saw another uncircumcised boy - it was that widespread where I lived. When my son was born we had him circumcised, but again, it was the "done thing" back then.

I didn't begin to see the other side of this picture until we came to Europe; it's now one of those issues where my thinking has changed completely. I would never do that to a child again and it seems clear to me that it really is an act of violence against the child. I know that parents don't have harm in mind when they subject their child to this, but it strikes me as a pretty barbaric ritual all the same.

Much love,
Larry
 
This is difficult to me. It is trigger thing. This something done to me, by abuser, when I am 15, it, no, not something more to speak of. I am sorry it happen with you also.
 
What does the doctor's religion have to do with this?

"I disowned my father who let a Jewish doctor mutilate me."

Ken
 
I don't want to speak for Todd, but I think his point with stating that his father "let a Jewish doctor mutilate me" was that it was done for religious reasons by a doctor whose perspective on the procedure may have had an obvious bias. I believe in some orthodox Jewish groups, this is a ceremonious procedure done well after delivery, and not simply a procedure done in the delivery room. That's what I read in it anyway.

I, too, wish that the procedure had never been performed on me, but it was done as a baby so obviously I don't remember it. I found it interesting from the website noted that reconstructive surgery can be done. I don't think I would ever go to that extreme. Being from the South in 1960s, it was the norm for this procedure to be done. Unfortunately, most people don't weigh the pros and cons when making this decision.

Todd - hope you can find some peace in your life for this.
 
In some cultural situations religion has everything to do with it. Both Jewish and Islamic law require that boys be circumcised, and often the boy is 5-8 when it is done to him. The ceremony is a kind of rite of passage and the boy has no choice. Most of my Muslim friends remember this event, but it doesn't bother them because it happened to everyone else as well. But sometimes it is put off because it is a time for celebration. That in turn means a big expense that many families cannot afford, so the procedure is delayed. Finally the young man wants to marry, but must submit to this before the wedding. In traditional circles it would be an unbearable shame for a woman to share her bed with an uncircumcised husband.

So as I said, in so many cases this is done by someone who is actually performing a religious ritual. In many parts of the Middle East a barber will do this; you don't have to be a doctor, and of course serious infections and other complications can arise.

Larry
 
The following is only my personal opinion and in no way reflects any 'official' MS point of view. In other words, I am writing as an individual only.

Does circumcision of male infants really belong in a discussion of male sexual abuse here at MS?

It is painfully obvious, Todd, that you have very strong feelings about the fact that you were circumcised.

It is quite evident that your distress is genuine.

Yet, I can't quite shake the feeling that this topic is perhaps better suited for other places and other times.

I could be quite wrong about this - I am voicing my feelings as a member of MS who participates in discussions on this board.

I am not recommending censorship or suppression of this topic.

I am simply asking out loud how much the subject of circumcising male infants has in common with the sexual abuse of boys and men.

Todd, I wish you the very best success in your search for relief. I am very sorry for the anguish you feel.

And I am writing this not to chastise or censure you, but rather to contribute my point of view to this discussion.

I, too, felt that the "Jewish" qualifier was unnecessary. Though I understand the explanatiion of the purpose in categorizing the person as "Jewish", I cannot approve of the use of religious or ethnic generalizations in such a context.

I would rather that the full attention be directed at the act in question, rather than the religion of the alleged perpetrator.

I am sure that some may disagree with the question I raise in this discussion.

I respect your right to do so. I would also ask that you respect the exercise of my expression in this regard.

We can agree to disagree on this without being enemies.

Regardless of whether or not this subject is one for discussion on our Discussion Board which deals primarily with sexual abuse of men and boys, I am glad to see that the men who come and post here are supportive and comforting to you, Todd.

It seems that we all share the pain and distress of feeling violated.

What has worked for me has been the help of an excellent therapist and several medical doctors. Also my experience is that this sort of thing really needs the collaboration of other men who feel the same way I have felt.

And so even if the problems we all face are not exactly the same, I feel certain that many of the solutions are.

I sincerely wish you every good in finding your solutions.

What other solutions could be proposed for Todd?

Thanks for reading.

Danny
 
I have learned to be hapy with the way I am. I am not sure what the difference would be if I was uncut. I dont remember much, I was cut when I was a few months old due to being premature 2 months, I dont remember it at all. I would rather be circumsized than abused.

Todd I hope you are getting somewhere with this and working through it.
 
The way I looked at it is that MS's slogan is "Overcoming sexual victimization of boys and men". So I guess it comes down to what one's perception of "sexual victimization" is. I could certainly see forced circumcision fitting that definition.

As to the Jewish reference, obviously it has some deep attachment for Todd or he would have simply said "a doctor". I may be imagining too much into this since we don't know the details, but what I was thinking when I read it was a young boy who was forced to have a circumcision as part of a religious rite of passage. I can understand how he would see that as having been sexually victimized. Not all sexual victimization fits the stereotype of a playground pervert, and doesn't necessarily have to involve an explicit sexual act.
 
I am sorry for your struggles, your emotions. But I am not certain to understand.

How old were you as you were circumcised? I know mostly it is done at several months age, I know I was only few months when it is done to me. Is that age you were? And you have memory of that?

I am sorry you are not happy with it now, but as other people here say, it is often religious or culture decision to be done to the child. I am glad it is done when I am 2 months old then when I am 20 years old.

Is this the 'aggraveated sexual assault' you speak of, or is there other situation also? Because to me, if it is infant circumcision you speak of as aggravated sexual assault, I say with respect that it do not belong here. That is just my opinion of it, and I base it on someone who have that done by force at age 15, that is what I think truly aggravted sexual assault. Not something done medically as infant.

Andrei
 
Todd, I have an early recollection of my circumcision at age three days. The memory of it, more of an imprint or snapshot, wakes me up at night in a hot sweat. The feelings are so intense that I feel I am about to die.

To me, what is important is how we, as victims and survivors, perceived the event. If we believe our circumcision was painful, horrific, or traumatic, then it was. If we believe it was a sexual assault, then it is. It does not matter what the intentions of the perpetrator was. Nor does it matter what others THINK. What matters is how we FEEL.

I hope this is not inapropriate to mention here. I have created a place for men and women to tell their stories of forced genital cuttings such as infant circumcision, female genital cutting, and intersex gender norming. I encourage all of you to tell your stories there, too. I have already linked this wonderful website from mine.

Dan
 
Here is a post I made on the Member's side in April. This is just another perspective on how this issue did effect in regards to my being sexually abused.

"Well, here is an interesting thing about my abuse and how one aspect of it affected me for years. I was not circumcised, didnt even know what that was and the only 3 people I remember seeing naked until I was maybe 10 and going to the locker room at the public pool and later in High School was my father, one of my brothers and my perp. My father was circumcised. My brother and my perp were not. My perp was from Europe (Holland). Years after the abuse when I started to go to locker rooms I noticed that everyone was different then me. (In the USA in the 50, 60 nearly every boy must have been circumcised.) I was shocked and I still remember to this day thinking I was like this because of what Rudy (perp) and I did. No one ever told me about circumcision. All I knew was that everyone would know what Id done just by looking at me. I dont remember what I thought about my brother. I must have just figured it happened to him too. Anyway High School was even worse. As a freshman I remember going into the shower with 20 to 30 other boys. Now and then I would catch a glimpse of another that I figure had the same experience as me but not very often. I was constantly pulling back my foreskin. At night Id tape it back. I would do anything to try to keep people from knowing. Id hear little wisecracks here and there that I didnt understand but I just knew it had to do with them knowing Id done awful, evil things. Once I finally learned what circumcision was I wanted to have it done. Even though I now knew it was not related to the abuse, it was so ingrained in me that I thought about it constantly. As soon as I left home and could afford it I went and had the procedure. I know now things have changed in this country drastically as to circumcision and Im very neutral in my opinion but as a little kid it sure had a major impact on me. I've never talked about this but it really weighed heavily on my little mind back then."

Dale
 
Well this topic is really about religion and mutilation?

I don't understand either?

Enlightenment is welcomed!?

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Dale,

I'm glad you raised this again, since it illustrates the fact that an issue like circumcision can have a LOT to do with sexual abuse.

We need to bear in mind that in so many of these things logic and reason play no role at all. As your case shows, what we are talking about is the fear and confusion that a boy and then young man felt about this, and how he connected it to his abuse.

For you, and for Todd, the connection FELT real, so for you two it WAS real. If someone else doesn't see how this can be, that doesn't make it any less real and relevant for you guys.

So we are back to a point I like to keep stressing: feelings are the key. They aren't a matter of right or wrong, rational or ridiculous. They just ARE. This IS how we feel. So we have to OWN these emotions. We have to be honest with ourselves, as you have done Dale, and get the feelings out into the light of day where they can be talked about and examined. In this way we learn to deprive them of their ability to hurt us, and perhaps even turn them into positive tools for our recovery.

Much love,
Larry
 
Well said Larry,

In my case I was circumcised as an infant and dont recall the event. But I have seen it happen in the hospital and the babies, and my god they arnt sitting there happy and cooing, Its the exact opposite. To perform a surgery just for looks and old wise tales is foolish.

3 out of 4 of my boys are not, they are as they came into this world. I will not cause them any physical or psych pain what so ever. That does not mean that I will allow them to not have disipline and structure in there everyday life. My 2nd oldest boys mother had it done as I was out of the county at the time and she didnt consult me. Needless to say I wasnt very happy.

But to have to go through this at an age where the memories will be so vivid, I can only imagine the stress and such and thinking of it gives me the shivers.
 
Well this topic is really about religion and mutilation?
Click to expand...
Rick, It is about being overwhelmed by people stronger than you who forcible slice off very sensitive, functional, erogenous tissue. It is about all the feelings that come up including, anger, shame, sex combined with violence, and fear.

Just because it is culturally sanctioned does not mean there is no harm to the body and psyche. Just because you don't recall it doesn't mean your mind wasn't permanently altered (studies show that it is).

It is against the law to do the same thing to a girl in the US and other countries. If it is an assault to girls, then it is an assault to boys, too. Dan
 
Circumcision is an act of abuse, and should not be tolerated in any form.

I watched a movie where twin boys were circumcised using a laser, and one had the whole organ removed by a careless doc.

They tried bringing him up as a girl, and that was abuse, as he was used as a guinea pig by some mentally deranged psychologist. Now he is dead, I think at 37yo.

He was a magnet for the girls but had nothing to make love with, they had rearranged his gender, so even though he thought and acted like a boy, his whole life was taken away by circumcision.

It is a situation you do not have control over as a kid, and when it goes horribly wrong, its yr life they stole,

ste
 
Dan - that's what I meant!

It's mutilation by others, either in the name of religion (which I will never understand). If man is created in god's image, why do they chop bits off. Is their god's image not good enough?

The other reason it appears to be done wholesale in some countries is because it's supposedly more hygienic. Whats wrong with just getting washed properly.

I am pleased to say that for most in the UK, this is not a common practice.

My personal opinion is that it should only ever be done for medical reasons.

If an adult wants to do it for personal reasons, fine! Just leave the kids alone! Personally if it had happened to me for the wrong reasons, I would be suing!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
It's a tough situation all around, I think. The religious groups have their reasons for circumcising, and I'm not sure it is our place to be questioning that. From my understanding, most "cultural" circumcisions are done in a very loving environment and the boys receive a great deal of love and support afterwards. However, this is based mainly of my knowledge of Jewish and Muslim rituals. I'm not sure that these circumcisions are causing these boys irreparable harm other than some physical pain, since there is an immense sense of belonging associated with being circumcised in those cultures. I imagine a boy who is not circumcised would feel very left out and alienated. Anyway, like I said, I have no experience with it other than talking to my Jewish and Muslim friends, and they don't really have an issue with it.

I wonder, do people feel the same way about tattooing or scarring or other non-sexual ceremonial body alteration?
 
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