calling all christian survivors

victor-victim

Registrant
hopefully this does not offend anyone.
i was trying to do this before, but the thread got hijacked, and now it is blocked.
people were arguing with each other and they were ignoring my posts. i think the point was missed.

are there any Christian survivors out there?

i am a serious student of the bible who is seeking fellowship in the holy spirit with other survivors of sexual abuse.
in this specific thread, i would like to share my speculations about scripture, salvation, sex, sin and other spiritual matters within the context of Christianity, with other Christians, in the name of jesus, and glory to jhvh.

the bible is very important and helpful to me, and has become an integral and essential part of my healing and recovery.
my conversion and commitment to Christianity are currently complete.
the days and decades of doubt and debate are behind me, and i wish to move forward in faith.

for my sake, i humbly and sincerely beg and request...
to avoid wasting time on hostile debates, may we assume, strictly for the purpose of this thread only, that the bible is the word of god, written by men, but divinely inspired, jesus is the messiah, and jhvh is the creator of the universe.

those are declarations of belief, matters of opinion, religious doctrines, articles of faith, call them whatever.
they cannot be proven and i do not wish to doubt or defend or debate them in this thread.
in this thread, i just want to enjoy my scriptural journey of Christian self discovery and examination, without going backwards over well-travelled territory.
i do not wish to revisit old thought patterns.
i get tired of explaining and repeating myself.
it is not my job to convert or convince or coerce anyone into my corner.

i also do not wish to spend time in this thread blaming the bible and criticizing Christ and judging Jehovah for sins and crimes committed by Christian members of various Christian churches, corporations, congregations and cults.
that too has been sufficiently discussed in other forums and threads.

bad people are everywhere, especially in churches.
it behooves us to bathe the baby, flush the feces, dispose of the diaper, but keep the kid.
every secular or spiritual organization with authority and access to children is a target for undercover pedophile infiltration.

the christian religion does not own the rights to ignorance, intolerance, arrogance, negligence, prejudice, hypocrisy, or even evil.
that is a human problem.
humans are flawed, and social organisms are an order of magnitude worse.

ironically, i first learned to question authority from words attributed to jesus. just the little bit of bible i had read as a kid gave me the skill to recognize, and the courage to challenge the obvious hypocrisy and corruption i saw with my own eyes. i admired jesus as a rebel, but denied his divinity.

one thing i noticed was that very few christians i spoke to, knew what was in the bible.
hardly any of them read their own holy book.
it made me believe they were not serious or sincere about their belief.

i did not start with the bible, i ended up there.
i had run out of options.
it was my least favoured choice,
and it was my last choice.

surprise!

reading the bible gives me great joy and comfort, and i would like to share that experience with other eager bible students.
so, strictly for the sake of this thread, i would respectfully request that we assume that jhvh and jesus and the bible are not responsible for the sinful acts of free will committed by individuals or institutions.


this is not meant to insult.
i am only trying to establish parameters.

i repeat.
hopefully this does not offend anyone.

_____________________________
other christian threads on this website
Love in Scripture
Bible Study Notes
History of the Bible
The Gospels in History
The Bible - Believe it or Not
Meditations on Ecclesiastes
Book of Revelation
Calling All Christian Survivors
Bible Study for CSA
Food For Thought
The Devil is Real
Spiritual Armour
Matthew Movie
Baptism
Having Faith
Finding Strength Through Faith
Fear of God=Beginning of Wisdom
Power of Prayer
Healing Through Forgiveness
 
Sounds good.

I read often but post rarely. For reason I won't post here because it'll certainly raise issues.

Anyway, I'm on board. I avoid all manner of debates and arguments because honestly no one in an online debate is likely to change their mind. Usually it's more about throwing around anger and hurt more than anything. So I avoid it.

I'm serious in my faith and seek to know God more. I've has atheist/agnostic friends ask me how I know God is real and the reality is, I have indeed experienced God in a way that has taken away any and all doubt whatsoever. I can't give that experience to anyone else, they have to seek it for them self.

I've learned, taught and been in the Bible most of my life. Even gone to a Bible college for many years. I love learning apologetics and deepening my understanding.

Totally up for conversation in the name of Jesus, and glory to YHWH.

I'm game and if it can't be done out here, PM is good too.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
hi justscott.

thanks for your response.

I'm serious in my faith and seek to know God more.
Ask me how I know God is real and the reality is, I have indeed experienced God in a way that has taken away any and all doubt whatsoever. I can't give that experience to anyone else, they have to seek it for them self.

i am currently preparing for baptism.
i did not want to do it until i was completely ready to commit. have you done it?
any thoughts and scriptures you would like to share with me?

i have been engaged in deep honest conversations
with the pastor at my favourite church for over 2 years.
we have absolutely nothing in common,
yet he and i think almost indentically,
and i really enjoy our weekly conversations.

i am not an official member of any church.
i have found three different fellowships where i feel good when i worship.
the people are decent and sincere, the congregations are small,
the shepherds and sermons are scriptural, the prayers are plenty, the mood is loving.

if i don't feel the holy spirit in the fellowship or if i don't hear the holy word from the leader,
i am not interested.
if the service reminds me of work (i.e. entertainment, theatre, showbiz, performance, ego),
i am not interested.

after about 3 years of searching and prayer,
i have found 3 fellowships that i enjoy,
which i believe meet my scriptural standards.

one is labeled Lutheran with service in German.
one is labeled Pentacostal with service in Spanish.
and the one that is preparing me for baptism is
labeled Mennonite and service is in Japanese.

in a good week, i can visit all three at least once.

none of the three ministers has a problem with me doing this.
all three ministers are guiding lights and good shepherds to me.
after years of careful scrutiny, examination, investigation and interrogation, i am satisfied these men are genuinely good and wise.
i believe them to be true Christians, as i imagine the concept.
if they are hypocrites, they are the best actors i have ever seen in my 30 years of show business.
i cherish our conversations and these guys know all my secrets.
the members of these churches are friendly and sincere and treat me like a brother.
 
Wow, do you speak all those languages? I'm grew up and still in the US, so if it's not English, I'm lost, and now that I'm 38, I really regret never earnestly learning another language. I would like to learn spanish. I spent some time in the Dominican Republic and would love to live there someday and serve the Lord ministering to anyone who God brought my way.

I agree with you about needing to hear the Word preached in a church or if it's purely entertainment. I currently attend a United Methodist church, and our local congregation is pretty solid, although I have quite a few issues with the larger church organization.

I'm very much about studying how the "church" was in the book of Acts and I get frustrated with how different it is from the way it is done today. The two are so different.

I'm glad to hear you are looking to be baptized. It is Biblical and doing so is simply being obedient to the call of Christ is your life. You probably already know this, but it's simply the outward sign of the decision or faith in Jesus you have already professed.

I'm also a "member" of the church I attend, but such ideas of membership are more "organizational" than anything else. When one puts their faith in Christ they become a member of the body of Christ, the true Church. There really isn't any additional precedent for "membership" to a church to be found in the Bible.

As far a hypocrites are concerned, every human being I have met qualifies. We all say one thing and do another, or do something we say we shouldn't. It's part of our falleness for sure. Thank God for His Grace through Jesus.

Sadly presently in my life I don't have anyone that I'm close to that I can really open up and share with. I long for it. I pray for it. Maybe some day that person will arrive. Some days I feel I'm too broken to ever really get it and can only hold on as best I can until I can enter into God's physical presence.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
JustScott said:
Wow, do you speak all those languages? I'm grew up and still in the US, so if it's not English, I'm lost, and now that I'm 38, I really regret never earnestly learning another language. I would like to learn spanish.
the bible is an excellent method of learning how to "speak in tongues" ;)
pardon the pun, but i it is a fact that i am using the bible to learn Japanese and Spanish and Greek and Hebrew and Latin, and the results are amazing.
the other languages i learned from travelling and books.
German is my most fluent,
followed by minimal Thai, Indonesian, Polish, and French.
i even dabble in Punjabi because of our local demographic.


JustScott said:
I spent some time in the Dominican Republic and would love to live there someday and serve the Lord ministering to anyone who God brought my way.

that sounds exciting. i would love to travel some more after my children become adults, and i have been dreaming of it. but it's not likely for five years at least.

JustScott said:
I agree with you about needing to hear the Word preached in a church or if it's purely entertainment. I currently attend a United Methodist church, and our local congregation is pretty solid, although I have quite a few issues with the larger church organization.

I'm very much about studying how the "church" was in the book of Acts and I get frustrated with how different it is from the way it is done today. The two are so different.

i feel exactly the same way.

JustScott said:
I'm glad to hear you are looking to be baptized. It is Biblical and doing so is simply being obedient to the call of Christ is your life. You probably already know this, but it's simply the outward sign of the decision or faith in Jesus you have already professed.

I'm also a "member" of the church I attend, but such ideas of membership are more "organizational" than anything else. When one puts their faith in Christ they become a member of the body of Christ, the true Church. There really isn't any additional precedent for "membership" to a church to be found in the Bible.

amen

JustScott said:
As far a hypocrites are concerned, every human being I have met qualifies. We all say one thing and do another, or do something we say we shouldn't. It's part of our falleness for sure. Thank God for His Grace through Jesus.

[font:Arial Black]Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
1 Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
[/font]
i am still a hypocrite and a sinner and that is a big part of my prayer process. it was a lot easier being a rebel. that came naturally. submission takes a little work.

[font:Arial Black]John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. [/font]

i do love god for he has kept his promises to me.
[font:Arial Black]Ezekiel 36:26 - "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."
Psalm 34:4 - "I sought the Lord, and He heard me, and delivered me from all my fears."
Philippians 4:19 - "God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
James 1:5 - "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him."
[/font]
i pray for the power of the holy spirit to strengthen me in spiritual warfare. i still have daily battles with demons to deal with, and i doubt the devil will retreat until he is defeated. god has kept all his promises to me, so far.

i am working on these now.

[font:Arial Black]Isaiah 26:3 - "You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You." [/font]
not totally there yet.

the bible promises me that i am a work in progress but i will be perfected.

[font:Arial Black]Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1 John 2:5 - But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 4:12 - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
[/font]


JustScott said:
Sadly presently in my life I don't have anyone that I'm close to that I can really open up and share with. I long for it. I pray for it. Maybe some day that person will arrive. Some days I feel I'm too broken to ever really get it and can only hold on as best I can until I can enter into God's physical presence.

some of the reasons i am here
 
So, where do you want to begin? Shall we continue here? Or view a private chat? Who else to involve or invite if we do it privately?

I love a good discussion and I think the framework of your initial post is a good one.
 

nltsaved

Registrant
Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
my pastor has been pounding this and he keeps using a Vince Lombardi quote. We are to strive for perfection and in doing so we might fall short on excellence.

Jesus indeed sets the bar high and it should be in order for us to continuously have to grow and because we have an enemy that wants nothing more than to see us fall away from the higher call in Christ Jesus. So by setting the bar at perfection we will always have another level that we can reach because we are in the flesh we will inevitably fall but knowing that the goal is perfection this does not allow us to stay down or stay in our fallen state.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
nltsaved,
matthew chapter 5 is one of my favourite reads.

i strive for excellence in everything i do.
perfection is impossible, but worth the attempt.

p.s. i just finished reading isaiah and jeremiah again.
it took a couple of days.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
JustScott said:
So, where do you want to begin? Shall we continue here? Or view a private chat? Who else to involve or invite if we do it privately?

I love a good discussion and I think the framework of your initial post is a good one.
we have already begun.
we shall continue here.
no private chat please, let the light shine.
anyone who agrees with the framework of the initial post is invited and involved.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
this scripture gives me great comfort in troubled times.

romans chapter 8

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,
God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.
And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us,
who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires;
but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to Gods law, nor can it do so.
Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin,
the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligationbut it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die;
but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again;
rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
And by him we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.
Now if we are children, then we are heirsheirs of God and co-heirs with Christ,
if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,
but by the will of the one who subjected it,
in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit,
because the Spirit intercedes for Gods people in accordance with the will of God.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


What, then, shall we say in response to these things?
If God is for us, who can be against us?
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us allhow will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?
It is God who justifies.
Who then is the one who condemns?
No one. Christ Jesus who diedmore than that, who was raised to lifeis at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
As it is written:
For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
psalm 44



We have heard it with our ears, O God;
our ancestors have told us
what you did in their days,
in days long ago.
With your hand you drove out the nations
and planted our ancestors;
you crushed the peoples
and made our ancestors flourish.
It was not by their sword that they won the land,
nor did their arm bring them victory;
it was your right hand, your arm,
and the light of your face, for you loved them.
You are my King and my God,
who decrees victories for Jacob.
Through you we push back our enemies;
through your name we trample our foes.
I put no trust in my bow,
my sword does not bring me victory;
but you give us victory over our enemies,
you put our adversaries to shame.
In God we make our boast all day long,
and we will praise your name forever.
But now you have rejected and humbled us;
you no longer go out with our armies.
You made us retreat before the enemy,
and our adversaries have plundered us.
You gave us up to be devoured like sheep
and have scattered us among the nations.
You sold your people for a pittance,
gaining nothing from their sale.
You have made us a reproach to our neighbors,
the scorn and derision of those around us.
You have made us a byword among the nations;
the peoples shake their heads at us.
I live in disgrace all day long,
and my face is covered with shame
at the taunts of those who reproach and revile me,
because of the enemy, who is bent on revenge.
All this came upon us,
though we had not forgotten you;
we had not been false to your covenant.
Our hearts had not turned back;
our feet had not strayed from your path.
But you crushed us and made us a haunt for jackals;
you covered us over with deep darkness.
If we had forgotten the name of our God
or spread out our hands to a foreign god,
would not God have discovered it,
since he knows the secrets of the heart?
Yet for your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
Awake, Lord! Why do you sleep?
Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever.
Why do you hide your face
and forget our misery and oppression?
We are brought down to the dust;
our bodies cling to the ground.
Rise up and help us;
rescue us because of your unfailing love.
 
Ok, I'll be honest, the passages are awesome, but the volume of text is quite large, so I'm a tad overwhelmed and also unsure. Is there some specific part or section you want to talk about?

I'm going to go back and read your initial post to refresh my brain on your thoughts and feelings on all this.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
i have been studying romans chapter 8.
it led me to psalm 44.
these are comforting to me when i am feeling persecuted or paranoid.

i only posted them to share.

any comments are welcome.
 

nltsaved

Registrant
This is what I was talking about in the other thread about Romans 8
it is not all about Romans 8 but i brought it up while writing this for this thread


What are your thoughts on the sovereignty of God , how far do you take it. There are certain aspects of Calvinism I really enjoy. All salvation is of grace. I am leaning towards God does what he wants and because we being human want to know and understand and have reason revealed to us that we do want to believe in a God who predestines some to be saved and others to be raised up only to fall . God said he hardens Pharaohs heart in order that his glory would be displayed .There are many places in scripture where God raises up people for specific purposes. And than you have the whole Judas thing I mean some one had to do it . I am finding in my study that God does things that we will never be able to comprehend. Things that we might see as unfair or dare I say unjust and yet there are deeper more profound meanings behind his actions. Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

How far do we take the sovereignty of God ? I am almost to the point of thinking God is really sovereign in ALL things whether we understand him or his actions or not or whether we can reason our way into rejecting it or accepting.In the end I am just trusting God in all things for all things and committing to God being sovereign in all things because I think in my own opinion that in doing so it will put him in the highest place in my life that I can place him. Sovereign in all things trusting him in all things and whether i agree with it or not. Just knowing He is everything he says he is and really i have no reason not to believe this because for this verse 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. I have seen in my life he has justified me and i feel predestined and he has glorified me in many ways and put me in positions to glorify him through me and has set me in places to do great things and areas that I could never have achieved without God. I have no high school diploma and work at a job that requires one and make more money than most people with college degrees I have held 3 management positions in my life with not high school diploma he has allowed me to go on the oprah show and have the local news paper do a story on me and God uses me to do a prison ministry to bring the gospel to prisoners some even being child molesters . I say ONLY the grace and glory of God could any of this have been possible. I feel a sense of predestination not in the sense of being better than anyone but I do feel that God does choose those whom he chooses and chooses to do other things for people that i will never understand. Does it mean some our destine for hell ? well if it means to further bring him glory than i would say yes . Hell is not a place of fire and burning it is simply life without God life knowing you could of had a relationship with God and live in his presence . Instead rejecting God and having to live eternity separated from his presence. You have to read scripture in light of scripture and as a totality . When doing this you are able to grasp God i believe more correctly . Scripture in light of scripture . Yes there is a lot God does that would make you scratch your head and some that has the appearance of contradiction but examined in light of all scripture it is not contradicted at all and in the totality of scripture it reveals God love his sovereignty and his compassion time and time again.

There is so much glory and majesty about god that truly we do not understand, although we see great evils and we see here on earth how we would handle some things and have our own ideas of what justice and fairness is. Yet God see's things past present future and knows exactly what the causes and effects will be not only that he knows the amount of people it will effect the most. Add in everything is for his ultimate glory.
example
I mean If you had to determined who lives and who dies and had to make a decision in a scenario of your son or someone you knew was in a house that was about to explode and you could only get one person out of 6 which one would you pick? Most would pick their loved one, But God who is omnipotent knows that one of those people would go on to find a cure for cancer God would know who would go on to bring him the most glory where we would most likely go off our feelings and emotions.
 
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victor-victim

Registrant
amen and thanks for your thoughts.

[font:Arial Black]glory to god!
hallowed be the holy name of Jehovah and his son Jesus the messiah. [/font]

as a responsible parent myself, having successfully raised three great children (so far :) ), i have come to understand and love "god the father".
as a rebellious child, i also understand "the fall".
it took a lifetime to get to this understanding, but by the grace of god, it all makes sense now.
i have finally learned how to accept his will, but it still takes daily effort.
as i said in another thread...

the biggest problem i had with god was that i wasn't god.

of course we can't comprehend the creator of the universe.

jhvh is in keter, we are in malkhut.
god is in heaven, we are on earth.
god is the holy spirit, we are only a reflection of his image.
blood and dust and dna with a whisper of divine breath.
god is the creator, we are the creature, trapped in the creation.

god is beyond my comprehension or criticism.
he does not need my approval or agreement.
he wants my confession, not my permission.

jesus and the word and the holy spirit have lifted me out of a state of fear and hate. the very definition of hell on earth.
my memories, my history, my previous life, my sexual abuse, my self abuse, everything that once was, has died.
it seems like trivia now.
my spirit has been washed in the precious blood.

i thought i would never be free.

this is something so incredible,
i hardly believe it myself.
but i am the living proof.


the experiment continues.
 

victor-victim

Registrant
this was an eye opener for me.

book of job

38:
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
2 Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurementssurely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9 when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11 and said, Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed?

12 Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.

16 Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.

19 Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20 that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!

22 Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?

25 Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26 to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?

28 Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30 The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?

34 Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35 Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, Here we are?
36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts or given understanding to the mind?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38 when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?

39 Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41 Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food?

39:1 Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the does?
2 Can you number the months that they fulfill,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3 when they crouch, bring forth their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4 Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open;
they go out and do not return to them.

5 Who has let the wild donkey go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
6 to whom I have given the arid plain for his home
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
7 He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
8 He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.

9 Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your manger?
10 Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
11 Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
12 Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?

13 The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?
14 For she leaves her eggs to the earth
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15 forgetting that a foot may crush them
and that the wild beast may trample them.
16 She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
17 because God has made her forget wisdom
and given her no share in understanding.
18 When she rouses herself to flee,
she laughs at the horse and his rider.

19 Do you give the horse his might?
Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
20 Do you make him leap like the locust?
His majestic snorting is terrifying.
21 He paws in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
22 He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
23 Upon him rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24 With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground;
he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25 When the trumpet sounds, he says Aha!
He smells the battle from afar,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

26 Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars
and spreads his wings toward the south?
27 Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes his nest on high?
28 On the rock he dwells and makes his home,
on the rocky crag and stronghold.
29 From there he spies out the prey;
his eyes behold it from far away.
30 His young ones suck up blood,
and where the slain are, there is he.

40:1 And the Lord said to Job:
2 Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it.
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
4 Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
5 I have spoken once, and I will not answer;
twice, but I will proceed no further.


there is more, but this pretty much sums up how god put me in my place.
this thing happened to me before i ever read the book of job.
 
Similar to the Job passage, we have in Romans, chapter 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
Similar to the Job passage, we have in Romans, chapter 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says t
 
Similar to the Job passage, we have in Romans, chapter 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says t
 

nltsaved

Registrant
There are so many places it talks about God pretty much doing what he wants even if we can not comprehend what or why he is doing.

1 Kings 11:12 But I will not do that while you are still living. Because of your father David I will wait. I will tear the kingdom out of your sons hand. 13 But I will not tear the whole kingdom away from him. I will give him one of the tribes because of my servant David. I will also do it because of Jerusalem. That is the city I have chosen.
The Lord Brings Enemies Against Solomon

14 Then the Lord brought an enemy against Solomon
another bible says God raised up an enemy to go against Solomon.

Sovereignty is at the heart once again. God purposefully raising up someone to go against Solomon.


The bottom line for me is getting to the ultimate place for excepting his will no matter what it in tales. If he is who he says he is and I believe he is than he will do what is in the best interest of his creation whether I happen to agree with it or not. When i obey the word of God than his blessings are very evident just as when i walk outside of his word than there are consequences for those actions.
God

(Deuteronomy 11:26-28) In the New Testament Jesus says, Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it. (Luke 11:28) If people choose to reject Gods ways and not follow Him, the Bible tells us that God will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of His power. (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9) This to me speaks of the term hell and what it means in the totality of scripture. Not a lake of burning fire . When the word speaks of weeping and gnashing of teeth I also thing this is a more direct line of thinking what hell is like . Weeping and gnashing of teeth because you would know the many opportunities you had to deny and by pass in order to do your own will and now knowing you are separated from his presence for eternity.
 
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