Boys experimenting vs abuse

[greenearth]

My therapist once kicked around the idea of boys experimenting. My first sexual experience was when I was 6 years old and this kid 2 years older than me performed fellatio on me. I pushed back a bit because the kid tricked me into going under the desk and then told me to lay down and did this to me. And he did it again one more time. I don't remember if I did it to him but it's likely. I also remember him doing it when the teacher wasn't looking and I remember him looking out for the teacher and where she was. I also definitely remember telling him I didn't want him to do anything to me. The other thing is I still feel the physical effects of this to this day. I am gradually processing that when I feel anxious, it shows up on the tip of my penis, almost like a tingle, it shows up there and only there, on the tip of my penis. Is there such a thing as boys experimenting? Sure but I don't think this context was that. When it happened the second time, the teacher caught us and I don't remember seeing that kid again. He didn't come back to class. I also was not talked to about what happened. My parents knew because the school informed them but my parents didn't ask questions or tell me that what happened wasn't ok. 30 years after the fact I'm processing this. I don't really buy into the idea of boys experimenting in this case. What say you? Thanks!

 

[LittleSteve]

This is just me I’m not saying I’m an official or anything else. But even though I was sexualized very early and had peer peer interactions. The difference was if they said no that meant no and for me it was mostly just looking. I don’t think I ever touched another one another guy until I was well into teenage years so it was just kind of looking, but Noah is supposed to be no and if you said no then that’s what it changes from peer pure innocence to for sexual contact even if it’s another child I don’t know if that’s an official standard or anything else But to me it seems the difference is you said no and he did it anyway

 

[greenearth]

Yeah that helps. I've been dealing with this physical sensation of anxiety for 15 years now. It almost seems like the whole phrase of the body keeps the score in the flesh, no pun intended. It definitely sexualized me at a young age. I think EMDR eventually will help me figure out a bit more of the pieces. I know they say don't start with the heavy stuff so I'm hoping for a few sessions at a least.

 

[LittleSteve]

When the preparation for my EMDR session, we talked extensively about it actually two sessions because I was very nervous about it and EMDR can be used on memories that are not as traumatic. For example, if you had a fight with your wife, if you had something else you don’t have to dive in necessarily right to the abuse so if you’re nervous about it Which I was, that’s what she suggested was well let’s start with a memory that’s not tied to the abuse, so you can understand how it works and see what it’s like, the other thing from my understanding is it can be used to help general anxiety, shame, and guilt and things like that, but not necessarily specifically on the memory itself, but a general feeling so there’s a lot of different things that I really suggest you discuss it with your therapist fully before you experience that way you’re ready And you’re making an informed choice

 

[greenearth]

Oh I see. That definitely helps. I think it might help me identify more with the anxiety which would be a plus. I know I've also heard EMDR can help just as much as talk therapy... in any case I'll first talk to my therapist about it. At least it helps me to know what to expect from it and not.

 

[GaD3!]

What you experienced is not boys or children experimenting. Children do not know about oral sex, that is unless that is something that they have been exposed to themselves. That other boy must have been abused and he was reenacting.

 

[Silly]

What you experienced is not boys or children experimenting. Children do not know about oral sex, that is unless that is something that they have been exposed to themselves. That other boy must have been abused and he was reenacting.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. My first (known to me) sexual contact at age 3 was from another boy that was about 7 years old (he was my babysitters son). At that very young age it was certainly learned behavior. I did protest and tried getting away from him in his bedroom, but he still did what he was going to do... but... he is the one I've ever truly forgiven. My "no" had just as much weight as his "no" to who ever abused him is what I think.

I'm sorry that was done to you @greenearth ... I'm sorry for us all.

 

[George]

As others have said, chances are that boy was acting out his own abuse. I call this "sexual abuse by proxy". When I started getting abused at 8, I myself attempted to act out on a couple of other kids. When I was 10-11 a friend asked, "do you want to go naked?", this instantly morphed into daily sex play with me acting out my abuse. Sure, he said that he was willing, but I know that had I not been thru years of sexual abuse by that point, that it probibly would've been the typical "show and tell" type innocent peek thing, and not anything like it became.

When I apologized to him as an adult and explained my own abuse, he said that he was a willing participant. Him as a young kid couldn't consent, let alone comprehend the consequences and patterns that were being set up in our very immature minds. As a child he was living in a hellscape with his own parents and he told me that, "it was the only love that he knew as a child" (our acting out sex play), which broke my heart to hear because it had nothing to do with love for me as a broken boy.

 

[Youngtrumpet]

What is sexual abuse by proxy? Doesn’t that involve a third party?
In my “wanna get naked” situation, he started with that in order to get my friend and I loosened up in order to have us do more things.

 

[AltAppletree]

Children do not know about oral sex, that is unless that is something that they have been exposed to themselves. That other boy must have been abused and he was reenacting.

I think this is an important point. Normal curiosity and even "play" is one thing. More detailed or deliberate stuff is another. I experienced something very much like that with an older cousin when I was 12. I stayed at his house I slept in his room for two weeks one summer. Almost daily, he insisted on masturbating together. This progressed over a period of days to oral and anal sex with me. I didn't object or say "no" but I don't remember him asking either.
He had easy access to pornography- very graphic porn, and I've since learned that the whole environment was sexually charged. So, yes he was acting out what he experienced and sought also.

 

[Silly]

@George "sexual abuse by proxy" I've not heard or considered this before. Thanks for a new arrow in my quiver.

 

[greenearth]

Thank you all. Ever since I started recalling this memory, which was the first instance of sexual trauma, I've held the notion that this other boy had this done to him and he just kept that cycle going. I've had understanding and some compassion towards him. It definitely sexualized me at an early age and I'm sure I'm still dealing with that trauma. I can feel it physically show up when I have anxiety as a tingle in my penis. Anyhow that's part of what I'm working on in therapy.

 

[George]

What is sexual abuse by proxy? Doesn’t that involve a third party?

This is when a csa'd child is acting out abuse on another child/peer. It's not simple innocent child exploration, or show and tell, often it's actual sex acts that the initiating child was put thru by and adult, or another child acting out their abuse on them. In other words, one adult abuser can have victims "by proxy" due to their victims acting out their abuse.

 

[daveHello]

I had the best time experimenting with my older brother he taught me a lot so i was ready and able to cope with abuse from my Dad when it began shortly after

 

[mpjq]

My therapist once kicked around the idea of boys experimenting. My first sexual experience was when I was 6 years old and this kid 2 years older than me performed fellatio on me. I pushed back a bit because the kid tricked me into going under the desk and then told me to lay down and did this to me. And he did it again one more time. I don't remember if I did it to him but it's likely. I also remember him doing it when the teacher wasn't looking and I remember him looking out for the teacher and where she was. I also definitely remember telling him I didn't want him to do anything to me. The other thing is I still feel the physical effects of this to this day. I am gradually processing that when I feel anxious, it shows up on the tip of my penis, almost like a tingle, it shows up there and only there, on the tip of my penis. Is there such a thing as boys experimenting? Sure but I don't think this context was that. When it happened the second time, the teacher caught us and I don't remember seeing that kid again. He didn't come back to class. I also was not talked to about what happened. My parents knew because the school informed them but my parents didn't ask questions or tell me that what happened wasn't ok. 30 years after the fact I'm processing this. I don't really buy into the idea of boys experimenting in this case. What say you? Thanks!

Boys experiment when they are the same age and they both agree as to what to do. As far as remembering try to see your thoughts as something that is always there. Once I accepted that fact I could relax and function in life

 

[Trev]

I think there is a difference between experimenting and abuse. There is a distinction here in intent and knowledge, my first experiences at 8 years old with other boys I dont believe were abuse, I was following older boys, sometimes willingly in the sense I wanted to belong, but perhaps others would define this as a type of abuse.

At times the other boys I was with were my age, I believe many memories from those times require compassion and understanding towards ourselves.

Navigating these feelings can be hard especially when abuse happens along side experimentation.

As a father of boys creating an environment where communication of feelings around these matters is essential one of the greatest issues in a boys life is secrecy and not being able to share his feelings orvfeeling like he can.

 

[mpjq]

I think there is a difference between experimenting and abuse. There is a distinction here in intent and knowledge, my first experiences at 8 years old with other boys I dont believe were abuse, I was following older boys, sometimes willingly in the sense I wanted to belong, but perhaps others would define this as a type of abuse.

At times the other boys I was with were my age, I believe many memories from those times require compassion and understanding towards ourselves.

Navigating these feelings can be hard especially when abuse happens along side experimentation.

As a father of boys creating an environment where communication of feelings around these matters is essential one of the greatest issues in a boys life is ote secrecy and not being able to share his feelings orvfeeling like he can.

I raised two boys of my own as well. They are sponges when children imitating everything I did. Looking back I don't ever remember crying in front of them or expressing deep feelings. I think it is still an issue in our society today that fathers and sons don't emote in a healthy way.

 

[MSUser2024]

think there is a difference between experimenting and abuse. There is a distinction here in intent and knowledge

I may be out of line. I think there is also a difference between abuse and a traumatic experience.
If I understand the situation, I think this was a traumatic experience for you. I also believe you suffered from abuse. However the abuse was from your parents! Not only did they evidently have an abandoned warehouse they didn’t secure but they allowed children and who knows run freely throughout. Including you ! What was this lord of the flies? Just my thoughts. Peace Billy

 

[HavingHope2]

Experimenting is play between equals. Abuse has a winner and a loser.

Some amount of homoerotic horseplay, looky-feely stuff with boys of very close age (including brothers and cousins) is commonplace and shouldn't be automatically presumed to be damaging. As long as there ISN'T coercion, guilting, or not taking no for an answer, which is what crosses the line into abuse or right up at the border of it anyway.

I have a huge amount of experience with both types. My therapist told me my friend group growing up was unusually "active."

The very first friend I did it with, both 11, the ringleader who initiated many other boys (and probably why we were so "active"), immediately crossed the line from innocent experimentation into an abuse-like atmosphere. Because he was the first and he started it off badly I had unrealistic and unhealthy expectations for how friends should behave. I say abuse-like only because we never actually touched each other. But he was crude and incessant in his displaying and propositioning and demanding, whenever we were together. It always had to happen by his schedule of demands every time, if I ever refused he would taunt me or plead nonstop until I gave in, and there was verbal abuse and mockery and nicknames since I was less developed than him. Exactly one time I moved into a different room and said I wanted to do it with some privacy and he FREAKED OUT YELLING - "You're doing it wrong! Just come back in here and get in bed!" Like an angry husband.

When it was just me and any other boy it was different. Just friends doing what they always did anyway but now in the same room. And if someone said they weren't in the mood it didn't happen. That is what I consider healthy. None of this verbal aggression, insistence, displays, inescapability, put-downs, etc.

The ringleader used me as a steppingstone and did some clear and serious abuse to others as he got older. He sometimes bragged to me about what he'd done. At the time it was my normal, I was still a minor and had grown up with this, and had been subservient to him for so long it didn't occur to me to complain.

He protected me from bullies on the school bus and at the time that was all I cared about. Of all the nasty things I mentioned above, and more I didn't mention, I didn't start to feel bad until many years later. All I cared about was not getting beat up anymore so I was happy to have him around and I put up with everything else. If he had ever escalated me to actual sex I would have gone along with it and never complained or told.

He also had unmistakeable signs of being an abuse victim himself, again I didn't decipher them for years and it isn't an excuse for how he treated people, especially the ones he truly hurt.

When my son started sleepaway camp I told him he should expect things he maybe hadn't before, that this wasn't necessarily good or bad, that good and bad are determined by how people treat you and if you know you are in charge of your own self. He later confirmed to me that stuff went on and that everybody was friendly and fine with it. He laughed.

 

[mpjq]

I may be out of line. I think there is also a difference between abuse and a traumatic experience.
If I understand the situation, I think this was a traumatic experience for you. I also believe you suffered from abuse. However the abuse was from your parents! Not only did they evidently have an abandoned warehouse they didn’t secure but they allowed children and who knows run freely throughout. Including you ! What was this lord of the flies? Just my thoughts. Peace Billy

My parents were in their 40s and 50s raising my baby sister and me. They had raised two older boys when they were young and they were very strict, but with us, they really lost interest in parenting.

My father was from the Midwest and believed in the goodness of humanity. He was always shocked when people didn't live up to his expectations.