bathing and sleeping with a child

bathing and sleeping with a child
K

Ken Singer LCSW

I received a request via the listserv for professionals who treat sexual abusers about a court case he is involved with. I offered to post this on the MS discussion board to get reactions from survivors who may help educate those who think that bathing with or sharing a bed with a child beyond a certain age is harmless.


quote:
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About two years ago there was some discussion on the list-serve about the age
at which it was no longer appropriate for parents to bathe or shower with
their children. While not one of the most intellectually challenging topics, it
did evoke a significant response with clear differences of opinion between
list members who have children and those who do not.

I am now involved in a child custody evaluation where a mother has admitted
bathing with an 8 y/o son and 6 y/o daughter. There are also reports that the
mom, who is now single, sleeps nude in the bed with both children. I have one
data source who claims the son also sleeps nude with mom. I do not believe
this appropriate but I am facing stiff opposition from the mother's attorney who
describes this as "wholesome love."

I would appreciate help from list-serve members with opinions about the
scenario described above. I would like to report to the judge in the case the
opinions and views of a large sample of professionals who work in the field of
evaluating treating sex abuse victims and perpetrators. Any references or studies
addressing this issue would also be greatly appreciated.

Guy Renfro, Ph. D.
Private Practice
Montgomery, AL


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Your thoughts? I will forward them to Dr. Renfro.

Thanks,
Ken
 
Moved
 
We have 6 natural children. Five sons and a daughter. We NEVER thought it was appropriate to "bathe" in a tub with them. My husband and I did on occasion hurry them through the shower with one of us, who handed the child off to the other to dry them off etc. NEVER past the age of 2.

As far as sleeping in bed, we ALWAYS had at least one child in bed with us by the end of the night for years. Sometimes 3 or 4 in case of thunder storms or scary movies! NEVER was anyone nude. What in the world would be the point of that? "Wholesome love"? I don't THINK so. If it was, this site wouldn't be here. It's easy...if you have kids, just put clothes on. Duh. Modesty is the best policy. I guess we're "prudes"? If so, let's hear it for the prudes!!!

Children will have nightmares, and "accidents", and be sick once in awhile. Ours knew they were welcome to come to us any time, even in the night, when they needed to feel secure and safe. They stopped coming in gradually as they got older, and realized that they were safe, and we were only a few feet down the hall. I can't really remember what specific 'age' they were. Seems like it must have been around 9 or 10? Maybe occasionally a little older? Jay was 16 the last time...he was having an appendicitis attack. I'm glad he felt free to come to us.

Even now, before bed, EVERYONE is in our room on our bed...even their friends. The kids who are still home are 21, almost 19, and 16. It's where we read scriptures and say prayers, and just talk.

"Bed" can be construed as a "sex" place if people want it to be, but in our home, it is a place where people go to feel cozy and safe to rest.

Any adult who feels the need to sleep or parade around nude in front of a child needs to rethink that. An 8 year old boy is not oblivious to his surroundings. That situation is just FULL of alarms.

Thanks...
Lynn
 
NO, no, no. Not appropriate.

Children are curious. They poke and point and ask direct questions way before the age of six, let alone eight, to the point where I think any reasonable mother would shut down the opportunity for such a situation to present itself. There is no way for naturally inquisitive kids to be in such close proximity to their naked mother without some boundaries being crossed, even if her intentions are wholesome, which sounds ridiculous even as an "if."

I also think that most kids begin wanting and asking for greater amounts of privacy around these ages... in all parts of their lives from conversations on the playground to changing and bathing in privacy. I don't know any eight year olds who'd be willing to bathe with an opposite sex younger sibling, mother or no mother.

No way could the kids "really" be okay with this. Which means that either they have expressed their privacy concerns to their mother and she is ignoring them because she doesn't want to bathe and sleep alone, or it means that at the ages of six and eight they are already used to sensing the "needs" of their mother and bottling up their own actual needs to keep her happy and functioning, which is just as bad and maybe worse.

This topic of people who make their children feel that they exist to satisfy the emotional and physical shortcomings of the parent really really gets me going. It is NOT a child's job to make a parent feel better. It IS a parent's job to give choices that are actually choices. "Want to sleep here (or listen to me talk about your father, or give me a hug, or keep quiet about XYZ)," when the unspoken message is "If you say no, you are responsible for the bad feelings that will give me," is no choice at all. People need to learn to make and stick with their choices. This woman is abusing her children, and acting with no regard for their development as independent people.
 
ps--Lynn that is so cool. In just about every house I was ever in as a child, the parents' room was totally off limits, except in the case of nighttime emergency. Your bedroom sounds like the focal point of a loving and generous home. In an appropriate way.
 
When it comes to children, one should ALWAYS err on the side of caution. Therefore, wearing clothes is not optional. Nudity around an eight-year old - I DO NOT THINK SO. Kids should not be confused about where the boundaries are. Setting them too losely sets the kids up for potential abuse. There are people out there who will take advantage of kids as this site clearly demonstrates. Kids need to be CLEAR whar is right and wrong to stay safe. Who will protect the kids, if the parents themselves set them up like this!?!?!?
 
Wholesome love? Youve got to be kidding!!

While I cant provide any studies or professional reviews for the original writer, I can provide my own experience as a father of three daughters ages 15, 12 and 5, and as a Social Worker (LCSW) who works at a county-run juvenile shelter for boys. I was also sexually abused as a child.

I do not bathe WITH my youngest daughter, age 5, but I do bathe her. I sit outside the tub with my clothes on (though usually quite wet). We enjoy the daddy-daughter time together as she plays with her bathtub toys. Its my chance to find out about her day before she goes to bed. I do help her wash her hair and body, but she always washes her own private place. She is not embarrassed to be naked in front of me, nor am I embarrassed for her to occasionally see me naked. But those situations seldom happen and my wife and I try to handle them gracefully. And weve always discourage streaking!

She has had the typical "poke and point" curiosity about the differences between boys body parts and girls body parts. One recent incident happened after she came into the bathroom in the early morning just after I stepped out of the shower. As she sat down on the toilet to do her business, in a very sleepy voice she asked whats that thing hanging down in front of your private place and the two round things behind it? As I wrapped a towel around my middle, I said it was my penis and testes; that the penis is how a boy pees and the testes make sperm that help mommies have babies. That seemed to satisfy her and she wandered back to bed.

But even at 5, shes beginning to want her privacy; last night she didn't want to talk to me until after her bath. My 12- and 15-year old would rather die a thousand deaths than be seen by their dad naked, or to see their naked dad for that matter. But my 12-year old asked me, instead of her mom, about doin it.

In my work as a Social Worker, I regularly see boys who are victims of sexual abuse. Most of them tell stories of showering or bathing with their perpetrator, or sleeping with them before the abuse event(s) actually occur. When the perpetrator is a woman, this thoroughly confuses their sexual identity; initially they dont know whether theyre turned-on by what happened or are repulsed by it. But theyve all come out the other end with feelings of guilt, shame, and disgust. They instinctively know that what happened to them is not part of a normal parent-child relationship. And they often blame themselves for what happened, as if they had some control over the situation.

Ive had many boys blame themselves for having had an erection. One 13-year-old asked if he could be castrated! Maybe then my mom wont keep coming in my bedroom at night. His mother was eventually convicted of child molestation and neglect; when she went to prison, he committed suicide. After 13 years my heart still aches for him.

Im sorry, but that type of behavior is not wholesome lovethats perverted incest.

There is a fine line between "wholesome love" and incest with our children; but I still firmly believe that we as adults have the ultimate control of the situation and must take that responsibility very seriously. And if we ever cross that line and abuse that control, we should expect to spend the rest of our lives behind bars.
 
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