Bathing and sleeping with a child?

Bathing and sleeping with a child?
K

Ken Singer LCSW

I received a request via the listserv for professionals who treat sexual abusers about a court case he is involved with. I offered to post this on the MS discussion board to get reactions from survivors who may help educate those who think that bathing with or sharing a bed with a child beyond a certain age is harmless.

About two years ago there was some discussion on the list-serve about the age
at which it was no longer appropriate for parents to bathe or shower with
their children. While not one of the most intellectually challenging topics, it
did evoke a significant response with clear differences of opinion between
list members who have children and those who do not.

I am now involved in a child custody evaluation where a mother has admitted
bathing with an 8 y/o son and 6 y/o daughter. There are also reports that the
mom, who is now single, sleeps nude in the bed with both children. I have one
data source who claims the son also sleeps nude with mom. I do not believe
this appropriate but I am facing stiff opposition from the mother's attorney who
describes this as "wholesome love."

I would appreciate help from list-serve members with opinions about the
scenario described above. I would like to report to the judge in the case the
opinions and views of a large sample of professionals who work in the field of
evaluating treating sex abuse victims and perpetrators. Any references or studies
addressing this issue would also be greatly appreciated.

Guy Renfro, Ph. D.
Private Practice
Montgomery, AL
Click to expand...
Your thoughts? I will forward them to Dr. Renfro.

Thanks,
Ken
 
I have no kids, but personally I would say that once the kids were old enough to bathe themselves then parental help should be slowly withdrawn.

It would be nice to believe that families would be 'cool' with nudity if accidently encountered amongst family members, but sleeping nude at that age ? no, I think somethings wrong.

Dave
 
Ken,
Once a child is old enough to bath themselves then the parent should let them. It gives the child some sence of indapendence as well as helps develop healthy boundrys where the body goes. As for sleeping I feel if the child is scared or something like that then they should be in there own bed. But to sleep with a son of 8 and daughter of 6 nude and feel is OK. Sick is what i call it. Sounds to me that she is groming her children to be abused either by her or some other sicko out there. If she teaches them it's ok to let an adult bath you at that age and it's ok to sleep in the same bed with that adult naked then why wouldnt the very next step be ok as well. If this mother sees nothing wrong with it then I would hope she gets help (court ordered if thats what it comes to) and I would hope that the children have a support team around them as well. I wonder at what age does she think it's ok not to have them in bed with you? Sad really. Sorry kind of went off on a rant here.

James
 
There is no way in hell that you sleep nude with someone and not have any contact, and an adult should not be having nude contact under the covers with an eight-year-old.

Now, I hate to play this card, but if this were the other way around, you would be posting this in the 'world news section'

"A __ year-old man was charged yesterday with child endangerment when it was discovered he has been bathing with his eight year old daughter and sleeping nude with her. The man who has been single since"

Something here does not jive, and it is just that "Oh, no, it's all innocent" attitude that predators play on.

Please! :mad:
 
Give me a break. What next? Where do these so- called parents come from. I had a mother who exposed herself too much to me and I know how I was embarrassed by that. What on earth is this mother thinking of? And don't ask the kids. They don't want a mom who's sick. They would probably say that it's ok with them, for fear that their mother would be taken away.
Bathing and bedtime can be some of the most memorable times with our kids. Please, let's not muck it up so that they don't know what modesty and boundaries are all about. Help until they don't need it any longer. Then it's praise for a time or two as they learn to do it like the big kids. Leave that door ajar, they can still get into trouble...you know, swimming underwater and coming up under the faucet...ouch.
Good thread, preserve the kids' dignity; the body is beautiful, nothing to be ashamed of, but lets help them grow up into mature kids who respect privacy and good judgement.

David
 
This mother has a real problem understanding what's appropriate for children. The bathing issue I agree with the others, that when I child can bath themselves, they should be allowed to do so. If the adult fears safety then perhaps they can be in the room to watch the child, but allow the child to bathe themself.

As for the sleeping, since this is a child custody case, I presume there have been problems between the adults. Sounds like the children are filling the empty spot in this woman's bed where an adult partner should be. Using a child to fill a need that shoud be filled by an adult is ALWAYS wrong. Whether the or not the children are being sexually abused, they ARE being asked to replace the adult this woman is missing.

I hope the courts are not to afraid to do what is right for the children and remove them from the caustic presence of the predatory mother.

Ken
 
In my case, it wasn't my mom bathing with us. However, my father was another matter. I remember being around 14 years old and he would make me take a shower with him or my older or younger brother. My older brother was 3 years older and my younger brother was 6 years younger. Supposedly in my mixed up freaking family, this was to save water. However being in a shower right next to your father when you are 14 years old trying not to get an errection because if I did, it was just an invitation for my father to start the usual routine.

I know we come into this world when we are naked but in our society, we have chosen to have people clothed to be "decent". If people go outside without covering private parts, they would be arrested. It is part of our society that there are times when nudity is ok and there are times when it is not.

To me it really blurs the boundaries and ends up teaching a kid that nudity is not something special and it has no boundary. I would guess that it would really mess up a child's mind when they are developing sexually.

To be honest, I feel so screwed up when it comes to all of this because there were no boundaries with nudity or sex in my family. Everyone was having sex with each other and of course for me that started when I was very very young.

If this mother feels it is necessary to sleep nude with her children, than I think she really needs to be checked out.

Don't know if I am making any sense or not, because this issue really hits to the core of my abuse and so for me to try and stay objective, is almost impossible.

Don
 
1) Personal Responce:
Are you out of your Fucking mind?

2) Professional Responce:
A mother sleeping nude with her 8 year old son? Of course its inappropriate. What's her defence, "wholesome love"? Sounds like she's already admitting to "contact". Probably engaged in "carressing or masaging". Its a classic step for a Perp. "I'm just relaxing him so he'll sleep better". Its just plain sick, Morally wrong, & emotionally damaging...to the child. And to the mother in using subterfuge, she will slowly delude herself into more inappropriate behaviors to satify her emotional needs & eventually her sexual.
 
I will say that I feel that it is inappropriate. As for bathing, the 8 y/o is definitely old enough to bathe himself. A parent can tell if their children have bathed without doing it for them. As for the rest of it, I can understand the mind set of "naturalists". I do not agree with it. I definitely feel that it is bad for the children for them to all be naked sharing a bed. I am far from being an attorney, but I would think that there are laws that cover much of this. Many laws concerning children are based on society's rules of conduct concerning what is considered proper behavior by caretakers. They basically consider the children as being society's children. Religeous and other beliefs that go against other laws in this country are not allowed to be practiced, but children are also circumsized, etc. In my opinion much of this may fall into a very grey area. It sounds like they are taking the argument that the parent is raising the children according to her beliefs. Similar questions should be raised, and I am sure that they have been, concerning children in nudist colonies and other similar things. I have also seen where baby pictures that show a bare bottom are considered child porn. Irregardless of that, it definitely appears that some of the behaviors that this particular mother is involved with must be considered bad for the children and quite probably illegal.
 
I'll make is short and "sweet"
Those children are old enough to bathe themselves!

Why are the children not in their own bed? I do not think she should sleep nude, as the children may come in the room. How messed up is this woman?
 
Boy o boy,

No fucking way should an 8 and 6 be bathing with their mother, let alone sleeping nude with the boy. Like Roland said if it was a guy their would be no question that he should be in jail. How the fuck can this be whole some? Fuck that. Once a child can bath their is no need for a parent to help their child bath. Once the child can bath the only time you should ever see a child naked would be for medical reasons no other reason. NONE WHAT SO EVER, SEND HER ASS TO JAIL.

lots of love, Nathan
 
Ken,

If I may use strong words for a minute - BULLSHIT!

This lawyer is full of bullshit! Why is he afraid of bringing it up in court?

There may be an innocent explanation for it but it sure as Hell doesn't sound like there is one.

I hate to be so blunt - you're the expert after all - but this sounds like so much exquisite bullshit and your colleague has EVERY RIGHT to voice their suspicions.

Someone else posted something ahead of me, reverse the sexes and ask if it sounds "innocent and wholesome" then.

Peace and love,

Scot
 
I was about 5 or 6 when my father showered with me. I don't remember much. I don't know for certain how many times it took place, perhaps only once, I don't know. I remember feeling uncomfortable about it and not wanting to do it. I remember that I was ridiculed for not wanting to do it and was intimidated and manipulated in going along with it.

I remember the most traumatic part of it which was my father's hand on my butt and his finger rubbing across my anus. I think I remember finger penetration but may have mixed that up with another incident or incidents.

It was definitely wrong and crossed normal boundaries of behavior. Regardless of how my father felt about it and no matter how he might have described the situation later (as being innocent) it was, in fact, abuse and resulted in PTSD-like symptoms that I am still experiencing today at the age of 49.

Inappropriate, abusive acts can happen to infants, too. My own experience is being bathed by mother when I was just a baby. She grabbed my genitals and caused me pain.

Regardless of the strain she may have been under and the stress she may have been experiencing and her past experience as a child, her act was inappropriate and abusive.

Along with the incident with my father, it resulted in PTSD-like symptoms that I am still trying to deal with today.
 
My mother took baths with me until I was four or five. I remember thinking then it was wrong. I also had to share room with her and my grandmother from age of 10 to 17, and sometime my mother would have me in bed with her. She was not nude. But still, it felt wrong. It all felt wrong, and all was wrong. I think that certainly age 6 is enough to bathe themself. And it is too old to be sleeping with nude mother. It is just wrong.

Leosha
 
Bob and Marc (and anyone else who is uncomfortable with leaving the post up)

I sent the comments to Guy Renfro last night and today. If you want to edit, go ahead. Thank you for your brave and painful rememberances. I hope he can somehow use this to educate the court in this matter.

Thanks,
ken
 
First of all I would just like to say that I am sorry for all that have had bad experiences with this subject. It is awful that you had to indure that pain.

As far as this post goes in order for me to give a real opinion on this there are alot of questions that have to be answered. Unfortunitly because of the abuse that I indured I have been left compleatly scrued up sexually and find it very difficult to decide what is actually right and what is not. I am not saying by any means that sexual abuse in any way shape or form is ok. I am just saying that I like to have all the facts about the subject at hand before I even come close to trying to make a decision one way or the other. I have learned quite a bit about sexual abuse through the years and have many different opinions. The questions I have regarding this post are as follows.

1.Do the children show any signs at all of sexual abuse?
2.Who repoted this issue to the authorities, a neibor, the mother, the children, ETC?
3.Has the mother tryed to do anything at all to the children for sexual gratification?
4.Does the mother have any form of mental illness, if so what?
5.In comparison to other children of the same age, would you say that the children of this mother are normal and at the same level as other children or different and express to much knowledge on different subjects, especially sexuality?

These are just a few questions I have and if the answer to any of them are yes then I would say the children need to be taken out of the home and placed in therapy. If not, then I would like to know the reasoning behind why the mother wishes to act in this way with her children and make other decisions from there. I do not think that the mother should be allowed to continue this form of behavior with her children because of the potentel damage that it can cause. But if there are no signs of that damage and if the mother can be stopped from doing these acts, then I see no reason for her to go to prison and I see no reason for her children to be taken away. But as I said above the mother should be stopped from continuing these acts.

I am really interested in this story and would like to be kept up to date with what is going on and would like to know what is decided. If it is possable could you pm me the answers to what questions I have and keep me up to date with what is going on. I have alot I would like to add to this but feel that I can't without the proper facts, so please if you have time let me know so that I can give a better more detailed opinion. Thanks so much for your time. Your friend malidin.
 
I think that it is just wrong to bath with a child who can bath themselves, and that sleeping in the nude with a parent at any age is wrong. I think that some people have such a distorted view that they believe they are not harming their children, but in reality they are creating things the child must deal with later in life. Life is complicated enough without having this happen to you, whether it is meant as abuse or not, it is wrong on many levels. It is sad that people have such scewed views.


scott
 
Hmm, if the allegation is true that mom really is sleeping nude with her kids, Id say that is really pushing past the boundaries of what is appropriate. As for the bathing, 6yo is a maybe, 8yo it would be more appropriate just to leave the door open a crack to make sure the kid doesnt drown, but thats a judgment call on the parents part. However I think he should make sure the allegations are true before doing anything, if the data source is just dad making up stories to get custody away from mom, that needs to be taken into account as well.
 
MMM?

I think the only answer to this question is.

Are the children happy? is it their choice?

I remember when I was being bathed by my mother, there came a time when I just told her, no i am old enough to bath myself and she left me to do that.

Can't remember what age I was, but I remember my parents never really being able to trust me bathing myself as I would over fill the bath and hold my breath under water and pretend to drown, but that is another matter.

Sleeping in the nude with them?

Again, is their an abuse issue here, if the kids "want" to do it, then why not? I remember going to a friends house and his kids played nude in the back garden, his wife asked me if this was normal?
And I replied that it is normal if you are happy and they are happy.

Abuse is about force, or going against "will" my friends family are a natural well adjusted family.

The case can only rest on whether the kids have had any problems with what they have faced, have they been made to do it against their will, would it have been their natural "choice" or the mother co-ercing her kids into unnatural practices.

Don't forget, we are the only ones who wear clothes, we do it sometimes to show people how well off we are, or to show our personality, I just wear clothes because it stops the cold.

Other peoples live totally in the nude, and they are more "socially" advanced than we could ever be, animals have to do it, it is all a question about how the kids relate to it and not what someone might think it will do to them.

They will know when the time is right to break away just as I did.

By the way I always sleep nude as it helps me to feel free.

Abuse is unnatural practice, not a mother nurturing her children as she thinks best, you can't assume that she is an abuser for looking after her brood.

You might as well say that nudist families are abusers, when there is very little abuse within families who grow up through nudism, they are not ashamed of their bodies, they don't mind mom and dad seeing them nude, and they grow up as strong individuals.

Case closed? wait for the flak

I can take it

ste
 
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