Authority, intimacy, substance abuse & suicidal issues

Authority, intimacy, substance abuse & suicidal issues
B

blue

Registrant
My husband grew up in a single parent family. His mother was his only caregiver. The problem is that she was also in need of someone to give her emotional comfort and turned her son into her submissive husband. He was easy to control, as his very existence depended on her. He was very young when she began leaning on him and using him to meet her needs. His food, shelter, affection, and education came from her. His view of himself and the world came largely from her.

My husband is now in his forties, but he is still largely dependent on her. In addition, when she is displeased with him, she still uses the same tactics of threatening to withdraw her support, which when he was a child threatened his very existence. These tactics still work, because he still responds to them with fear and eventual compliance.

He is largely in denial that she has control over him. On the rare occasions when he does admit it, he says he feel powerless to do anything differently. He says that he is unable to meet his own needs and therefore is stuck remaining in this intolerable situation of dependence on people who hurt him.

He is so fearful of allowing anyone authority over him, that he has rarely had a job, because if he were employed, he would have to have a boss. In fact, it has been over ten years since he has even attempted to find a job.

He has substance abuse issues and health issues as well. His physical health is deteriorating in front of my eyes and I am powerless to help him. There are many things he can do differently to fight the diseases that are literally killing him, but he refuses. When asked about this, he responds by saying that he should have never been created and if he does not actively participate in getting closer to death on a daily basis, he feels even more hopeless and powerless.

He contributes to his worsening health on a daily basis by:
*smoking 3-4 packs of cigarettes a day
*indulging in his substance to kill the pain
*refusing to take the medication necessary to control a disease he has
*refusing to go to doctors or to participate in diagnostic exams that could refine & improve current recommendations to better health.
*refusing to get any exercise
*eating harmful foods consisitently

Generally, on the days he has his substance of choice, he is just passively suicidal by doing the things listed above.

It is when he runs out of substance that he talks of a swifter method of suicide. This is also when he becomes enraged at the condition of his life. It is then when I sometimes become afraid of him. This pattern has become very predictible.

His mother continues to supply him with the money necessary to purchase the substance and cigarettes. This is necessary to keep him addicted, so that he must come back to her. She supplies him with other things too, like a car and a pager. The car serves her purposes in that he can run her errands for her. The pager is so she can have 24/7 access to him.

She hates me and has sucessfully turned his entire family against me. They know nothing of her abuse or control over him. That being the case, I can not count on any of them to help me help him.

She is a prominent member of the community where we live and has a very healthy income. She is seen by the family and others in the community as a loving, compassionate woman who had the unfortunate experience to have a "good for nothing" son. The perception is that she has sacrificed for years to take care of him, as any good mother would. He, in turn, has taken advantage of her good nature and misused her support. This is how outsiders see it, because this is what she has wanted them to see.

So this is the situation:

She abuses him which causes him to act in ways that any injured person would.

Then she uses his behavior against him to "prove" that he is worthless.

She must continue controlling him so she then gives him money and other financial support. After all, if she didn't give him anything, what would have to threaten him with? She can't withdraw what hse doesn't offer.

Because of the financial support she offers him, she receives the admiration and emotional support from her family and friends for being so generous!

Her plan works brilliantly! She gets to control him and to be admired and respected by others in the process.

I hate what she is doing to him, but I must admit, she does it well.

I hate it that he allows her to continue to do it. I hate that he spends most of his time in denial.

He is the most intelligent person I have ever met. (Not the wisest, but the most intelligent.) He is articulate, funny, insightful (except when it comes to mother), loving and truly has a compassionate heart. He is too beautiful to be destroyed by this evil woman and her selfish ploys to meet her own needs.

How can I help him? What can I do to help free him from his fears and to help him believe that the beauty I see in him is real? That he really can survive with out her? How can I help him to see that he does not have to continue to be humiliated by her? How can I help him to believe in himself enough to step out, away from the fear and begin to do things for himself? How can I help him to trust himself?

If she can successfully enable him to hurt himself, why can't I find a way to enable him to help himself? Please help me to help him.

It breaks my heart to see him hurting. I know that I can not know the pain he feels. I also know that I can not make his choices for him. I love him more than I have ever loved anyone. There must be a way to help him. Please help me find it. For every evil thing people can do to each other, doesn't there have to a loving kind act or method to counteract it?

Please help me help him. ANY responses will be welcome.


Should I just quietly love him? Should I confront him more often? Should I confront her? Should I just keep affirming the good I see in him? Should I point out when I see her schemes, so he is aware of them, or should I just keep quiet about them? When he wants to be in denial, he gets angry with me for pointing out her manipulations. Which is kinder: making him angry becaue he doesn't want to see the truth or giving him the room to be in denial as long as he needs to be?

If she can enable him to be harmful to himself, can't I enable him to be healthier?

Obviously, SA is a terrible thing. I believe that many of the issues he is dealing with not only have to do with SA, but with the tremendous role a mother has in anyone's life. If any of you have successfully dealt with this kind of total betrayal and twisting of your whole world, PLEASE tell me what you needed, what you wish your loved one(s) would have done differently. Tell me how you got out of the deception and into the safety. Tell me how you found the courage to trust you.

Again, any and all responses are welcome.
 
Blue,
oh how awful it is to know the song of self harm. For not only your hubby, but for those who love him. He surely is my hubby's brother having like "mothers" in so many ways. And us being sisters with MIL's being so same.
I am not sure what the magic code is to help him -- I geuss one of the things that sticks out in your post is the use of a "substance". I am not sure he will be able to deal or heal with his mother until he no longer uses his substance of choice. (my own hubbys was masturbation mixed with occassional pot & alcohol). For MY hubby it was a horrible act that took place during a binge of alcohol & my moving out & on with life that sparked hubby to get help. When the "fog" was lifted from his state of being he was able to "break down" and flood with memories & feelings. He also was very suicidal... it took a "pact" on our entire immediate family to "not kill ourselves" to work toward closing the door of suicide as an option.
You wrote so beautifully is it possible you could print out your post & share it with him? Read it to him or ask him to read it during some alone time... with the understanding that you love him very much and want so much more for him?
Your description of his relationship with his mother is so clear to see... and understandable and sadly recognizable also.
I would suggest perhaps you could talk to his general med doc or even share the post with his doc? Are you in individual or couples counseling? I highly recommend that even if he wont go to counseling WITH you or for Himself that you could go for you to help you along your path.
I'm not sure he could actually truthfully make a concious choice to harm himself with his behaviors... but it is working to "mask" the pain & anguish of what he has survived. Tho its not healthy it is "working right now" for him. Even if it is only in temporary spurts.
You may have to make a choice to "tough love him" by informing not only him but his oh so NOT helpful mother that if he chooses to continue to imbibe in his substance use that you will be forced to inform the local authorties (cops) that may push mother to no longer give him money to use.. AND the "threat" being is that if folks in her social circle find out SHE has been supplying him the funds to use well it makes HER look like the dipshit. I suspect that her "friends" have wondered even amongst themselves WHY she continues to provide him support to access his troubles.
Thru this Blue YOU have to survive and keep YOUR needs met. I am not suggesting you toss him to the world, but more that you seek support from a therapist or your doc so you can make some decisions in this.
I knew all along that my hubby is a survivor of SA & his awful mother... but I couldnt heal HIM, nor do it FOR him. I could suggest, nudge and work on ME but I couldnt do it FOR HIM. Hubby has had to do it in hubby time. MAN does it suck trying to deal with him at his pace. I even spent a lot of years thinking he was "learning by watching" me, I am sure that some of that DID happen (hubby told me he has) BUT hubby still has to do the work for HIM.
Maybe writing out your ground rules for what you are willing to live with, expect or work with for YOURSELF would be a place to start. THEN figure out if you can attain those goals whether he is active with you or not. Sometimes all it takes is the threat of not being with wife to be enuff to get his butt to therapy? (dont 'threaten' anything unless you are prepared for the worst case scenerio & are able to follow thru)
There are no hard & fast rules... I wish there was for EVERYONE's sake.
Let us know how things are going for you.. post often & others will be along with more input.
Peace,
Sammy
ps I really encourage you to find a therapist to help you if you haven already got one.
 
PS Blue,
if you feel he is in an active state of where he might actually TRY to commit suicide do not hesitate to call your local emergency line & access help... or take him to your closest hospital ... it also could be a start into getting him some much needed help & therapy.
While thinking self harm thoughts can be fairly normal side effect from abuse.. one NEVER knows for sure if another would actually harm themself.
Peace, Sammy
 
blue,
everything that sammy said is true about men being under the malign influence of a domineering mother. i have lived that life myself and what it took for me to get out from under her control was first the way she treated lady theo, then the recall of my memories of sexual abuse. it took the pain inflicted onto the woman i love for me to make that first step. it is different for every man who has gone through this kind of thing with their maternal perp (i refuse to refer to them with the honorific of motherhood). for some reason, the incest and direct abuse stopped for me when i was twelve, but the emotional incest carried on well into my adulthood. in the end, what it takes is what i call a conversion experience. this is a moment when it all hits the fan and the individual is faced with an either/or choice. for me it was the pain inflicted on lady theo, for sammy's husband it was her moving out. only you can make the decision to take whatever steps you need to take to ensure your own safety and well being. only you can decide whether it will take your leaving, or some other choice to begin the path towards healing for yourself alone. i am not advocating divorce, i went through that hell three years ago and still carry the wounds, but what i am saying is that you can not save him. he has to reach a point in his life when he has to face that decision to remain where he is, or to start healing. talk with him if you can, at a neutral time. he cannot see what he is doing very well because all of this is buried so deep, but if there is a reason for it to become unburied he might be able to start on that journey of healing. pm me if you need to.
 
Gawd- this must be an awful situation for you.

**hugs**

I can relate to being in a relationship where there is ongoing "emotional incest" - I dated someone who had a relationship to his mother that was very much like this. I would love to tell you that in the end it all worked out.. but alas..

However.. that was then and this is now...

On to your post:

**Stuff snipped**

>>>the rare occasions when he does admit it, he says he feel powerless to do anything differently. He says that he is unable to meet his own needs and therefore is stuck remaining in this intolerable situation of dependence on people who hurt him.

This is a tough one. Generally people cannot get help until they believe they DO have a problem. The motivation to change MUST come from within and if he does not see he has a problem, there is little you can do to change the situation.

In addition, not only does your partner sound like he is in denial, when he does come out of that he continues to percieve himself in a victim mode. Having spent many years myself stuck in the mindset of a victim it is very easy to just blame, act out, be angry, and not do anything about your situation. When you come from a background where you ARE truly powerless and are being abused for a long time, you truly learn "learned helplessness" even when you are not in the same situation anymore (when you are an adult).

Motivation for change and emotional healing is all about recognizing that there is a trade off - that the user/survivor could lose something valuable unless a change is made. Unfortunately you are often dealing with a trade off of pain - pain of losing a relationship, your kids, your health has to start to become MORE painful than investing time and energy being a victim, drinking, drugs, and denial of the pain of your own abuse.

One of the things that is most curious probably to you is why does your partner continue to allow this to happen. One of the things both my partner and I have acknowledged in our own abuse histories (him S.A. and me verbal/emotional/psychological torment from a abuse-survivor-alcoholic-addict parent) is that there is a certain amount of inner peace and coping possible as the resutl of an ability to deny. And such coping skills were required for us when we were abused kids in order to just "survive the situation". They allowed us to stay in a situation over which we did not have much control.

Now, as adults, in order to fully comprehend and acknowledge the horrors that someone abused us, to acknowledge how WRONG and PAINFUL those experiences were, sometimes the human brain just keeps you in the dark until the point which you are better able to handle the knowledge that something happend to you that was wrong and harmful (denial, dissasociation, repressed memories are examples of how the brain does this). Once that realization hits the conscious, the grief and shame and anger that pours out can be overwhelming and incapacitating for a time.

For me, I didnt have a CLUE that I had grown up in a home that had ANY problems until I left home for university and was separated from that toxic environment. Early in my university career I fell into a deep depression and I could not sleep and I could not eat much for about 2 years... at that point I realized I had a SERIOUS problem...

Unfortunatley in your situation you are dealing with an "active substance user". Active users are altering their minds and moods with the substances, and hence have NO motivation to make any changes in their lives. An addict has to FEEL their pain and make motivational changes from that pain rather than turning to self medication. All to often, though, the addictive substance masks that pain, hence no motivation to change, maintaining an ability to stay in denial, etc... and you have the situation your partner is in now.

I *do* apologize if I have not been able to provide any magic bullet.

Today my father still has no motivation to change - he's in essence a 'dry drunk' - fights the urges to drink/use drugs daily and has stopped the drinking but has not undergone the emotional processing to reduce the pull of the substances on his life, NOR has he ever learned that he is NOT a victim anymore. He still sees himself as that abused child, him against the world, and certainly not an involved actor in the fate of his own life. I am not sure he will ever come to terms with his addiction and his emotional pain and get on with the business of living.. who knows I have long given up on that dream. However, for me and my partner, that is another story.

I did have to come to terms with a lot of crap and really abusive, unhealthy relating he had with me. I realised that I had to make some changes and also realized that I could not push him to change, the only thing I could do was to change my behaviour with him. So, on that note, when things came to a head when I first left home for university, I had to do something about it. What I did do was a) say to him "you have a problem" b) say to him "I cannot sit by and watch you destroy yourself" and c) "if you do not get a grip on your life I do not want to have a relationship with you".

And for awhile I cut myself out of his life because he did not want to change. I had to "walk the walk" of that threat.

Unfortunately, while there was some motivation to quit drinking at that time, in the pursuit of getting better, his doctor just recommended medicating him with addictive tranquilzers which he used for over 10 years.. effectively the doctor o.k'd the trading of one drug for another, and this bad medical advice led him to another health crisis 10 years later.

I know it sounds harsh what i had to do with him but it had to be done for MY MENTAL HEALTH as I was getting pulled down into his misery and abuse.

>>>>He is so fearful of allowing anyone authority over him, that he has rarely had a job, because if he were employed, he would have to have a boss. In fact, it has been over ten years since he has even attempted to find a job.

On that note, my partner, who is ia SA survivor has had issues with anger towards male authority figures. My dad too has had issues with authority and has had a very unstable school and work history. It stems from the abuse they had at the hands of a male authority figure.

My partner has had to do a lot of processing ot get through those feelings and look at his "victim mentality" that was no longer serving himself well in his adult life, getting him into trouble at work, getting him fired, etc.

Unfortuantely as most men who are SA survivors have been abused at the hands of men, this is a very common issue for them.

>>>He has substance abuse issues and health issues as well. His physical health is deteriorating in front of my eyes and I am powerless to help him. It is when he runs out of substance that he talks of a swifter method of suicide.

If you are AT ALL concerned about suicide, run, dont walk, with your partner to an inpatient mental health clinic. The ongoing use of drugs and alcohol, combined with an abuse history can create depression. I really do think that you should give SERIOUS thought to getting your partner INPATIENT help. If you are truly concerned, as I was for my father's health/life when he was very addicted to prescription tranq's and then turned again to alcohol (10 years after my prior intervention - can't say that intervention actually worked), I literally had to drag him out of bed where I found him bleeding and drunk/stoned, and drive him to a mental hospital. He was at the point where he was a total danger to himself. I have no guilt feelings about doing that at all - at least he was safe and he got the medical help he needed.


>>>This is also when he becomes enraged at the condition of his life. It is then when I sometimes become afraid of him. This pattern has become very predictible.

If things are getting to that point, you really need to look at your own involvement in this. It is bad enough for what happend to your partner to claim one victim. Dont let youreslf be another.

Sometimes unforutnatley as in the case of my former relationship, these issues are just much bigger than we as one individual can possibly influence. I hope that this will not be the case for your situaiton, but you do have to recognize that leaving this situation yourself may just be a possibility.

On that note, I do hope this has been of some help. In dealing with difficult issues like this there is a certain art and science in determining "what is my stuff and what is his" and where to act and where not. And to recognize that a LOT of this really is out of your control - that we as partners can be there to help, but it is the survivor that has to do the work. You can tell your partner in clear terms how his behaviour and substance abuse and self neglect is affecting you and the relationship and what you think it may do to your feelings for him and the relatioship in the long run, as well as keeping yourself safe, and hope to God that your words and actions are motivation enough to change. It may be, it may not be, and you have to be strong enough to accept whatever decision he makes.

Good luck to you. Keep us posted.

PAS
 
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I am grateful for this site and for the support and advice given here.

Some growth has occurred in me in recent months and hopefully that will continue.
For years, I thought that I could cause him to grow if I

a)just find the right method or

b)if I just love him enough or

c) if I love him in the right way.

Now I know I can not cause him to grow. Now I realize that I can not chose this for him, but he must choose it for himself.

I don't like that fact, but progress has been made because I realize it is a fact.

I think it is critical for my husband to break free of his denial and face his issues before he kills himself. I do not control that and I can not make it happen. I do not want to facilitate his self-destruction.

Until recently, I thought all my anger was only for her, because of what she had done (and continues to do) to him. I am also angry at her because her actions have cost me my place in his life as his wife. She comes first. Then the substance, then me. It hurts to be such a low priority. She has stolen something very precious from me and because it isn't a tangible thing, and because of the denial, she gets away with it. That pisses me off!

What I discovered recently; however, is that I am also angry with him and me! Great!!!

I am angry with him for not protecting me from her. (How could he? He hasn't learned how to protect him yet.) I am angry with him for not loving me enough to face his fears, defeat them and join me in our lives together, without her or her ghost.

Seems like a simple thing to do, right? He could go through that whole process in a few days, right? (Just kidding.)

I know that is an unrealistic expectation. But that is how I feel nevertheless. I am tired of waiting for "Us" to start. I am tired of waiting for an adult husband, instead of having to raise another child. I am tired of trying not to be his parent. ( He keeps setting up situations where he asks my permission to do things, except when it comes to her or substance.)

Because my husband didn't have a Mom, (instead his mother has acted like his wife since before he was in kindergarten), he is lacking something normally received from a Mom. He keeps trying to set me up in a parental role in daily living.

If I am not careful, I slip right into it too. I hate me for that! I do not want to just be a handy substitute for her! I do not want to make his decisions for him.

He needs to make his own decisions and he needs to take responsibility for those decisions. If he wants advice: fine. If he wants my opinion, OK. If he just wants me to listen and care: I can do that all day long. BUT I refuse to take the responsisiblity for him and his life. I am here to help him, not to enable him to hurt himself. The problem is, I can't always see the difference in individual situations. That pisses me off!

I want him to use some of that courage I know he has to face what happened to him and deal with it. I want me to use some of that resourcefulness I know I have and figure out how I can best help him, while not hurting me or him. (It is not my aim to hurt her, but if it happens in the process of helping him, OK.)

I am angry at both him and I for not doing what I know we can.

I am again grateful for any insight, advice, wisdom or comments. Thank you all for your hoesty and willingness to share your experiences and time with me. Experiences and time is what our lives are made of. Our lives are the most valuable thing we have and to share that with another is truly bestowing an honor on them. Thank you for giving that to me.
 
blue,

Good luck to you as you try to cope with everything.

You'd said you want to try and help him see the situation. is it possible that he believes (and admits to himself, just no one else, not even you) that the situation exists, and he knows he'd like to change it, but he really really feels that he can't change it, ever? And that his anger at your pointing out the situation is just his own anger at his powerlessness? If that's true, you're trying to make him "believe" what he already knows. Maybe you would be better served by taking the situation as given, and trying to help him see the ways in which he can get some control.

I also have a mother who does not deserve the name. And while some of what I have experienced may not apply to men, there are a few things I can tell you from where I stand.

This feeling like you can't change it thing is very strong and powerful when it comes to mothers. A mother influences you before you are even old enough to understand that you are your own person. In some ways what a mother does feels the most inescapable and fundamental to your being. In some terrible way it feels the most true. I've always thought I could change what I wanted to change in my life, do what I wanted to do, think what I wanted to think... except where it concerned my mother... and the more I wanted to change, do, think, the more things there were in my life that concerned her, somehow. You asked if there was a loving act that could counteract every evil act. For me, although I have been lucky to have as much love in my life as I've had, there has been nothing that could change or take back what she's done to me, just things that smooth it over and help me go on being the kind of person that she can never be.

What people have said about conversion experience, snapping out of it, getting away from it, all that has been true for me too. Before that experience, you feel trapped, frozen. Mentally and physically also... unable to speak or feel anything, to do anything. To have that conversion, I had to be physically away from her for a long time, and occupied with other things that took up a lot of my energy, and go through a somewhat horrific "wake-up" experience and I had to be in a place where I was able to do some things that I felt were all my own. Not hers. I had to make some decisions that I could feel proud of. Doing a "proud" "good" thing even though it was a little thing came as a complete shock to me. It made me think for the first time that I would be okay, doing things for myself.

I don't really know how to say what I feel. I feel like I'm rambling here and I'm sorry. You can pm me if you want to talk about it.

Sar
 
Blue, Sar & Guize ~
Oh Blue... your so elequent with your words and could be reading my mind & telling my own experiences, feelings, thoughts in so many ways... with out the support of so many of you here I am sure I would have thrown in the towel on this insane part of my life this past yr.
For years, I thought that I could cause him to grow if I

a)just find the right method or

b)if I just love him enough or

c) if I love him in the right way.
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These are exact thoughts I had for so very long... and in fact in really stressful times my mind returns to those self owning types of thinking. Years ago I read Melody Beatty's book "CoDependant No More", shit I thot I had found the core & answer to my shit stew I was living... (*insert insane lafter here ;) ). Of course putting to "use" the work she suggests & what the therapist I was working with was a whole new world.
Now I know I can not cause him to grow. Now I realize that I can not chose this for him, but he must choose it for himself.
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And ya know even for me -- even after I moved out less than 12 hours after finding out about my hubbys crap I STILL have to be reminded its HIS work NOT MINE! Yea, it is a bit liberating when I "get it" ... the release of feeling so damn responsible for someone I love I dearly... yet in the same regard I end up feeling "still so broken" .. and often start a cycle of "must be stupid I cant learn, put into use.. blah blah blah..."
I do not want to facilitate his self-destruction.
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I hope you dont mind but I think that phrase alone could be a good mantra for me.... to share it with my own hubby... just tonight I got really pissed at hubby for taking steps to buy yet another piece of shit car (blown head) to repair , gas mileage better blah blah shit (he's an auto tech its a way of life for grease monkeys i swear :p )-- so I told him in no uncertain terms it was a bad investment he wasnt making good choices with his money yada yada --- he tells me "If you don't want me to buy it just say so and I wont"... Well HELL I dont want to TELL him what to do I want him to make better decisions! and to PLAN THEM with valid reasons! aaaggghhh so I ended up feeling like a manipulating bitch --- and the truth is its HIS money NOT mine... so I told him that too--- aww it sucked -- and like you I feel anger at his "mother" for shit like this. BECAUSE it STEMS from her being a controlling, neglectful shitty self absorbed abusive, mind controlling, life threatening (fill in every other descriptive term that lacks anything remotely human to it)... THEN I get pissed at HIM and ME too! I never know exactly WHEN its right to express my stuff, or even to point out his stuff...You're right tho'... these so called "mothers" have stolen something from us. The very damn thing a Life Partner is ENTITLED to have... to be freely first and most important in our life mates prioritys. We Should matter!
Waiting for US to start... that is a good way to put into words what I have been feeling -- and very probably a lot of us partners on this board. For the past 17 years I've been waiting on him... not hand and foot he's a great guy and can take care of himself (cooks & cleans, laundry ya know all that shit most women say their men couldnt do without them I dont find that shit funny)-- but you're right tho'... it is a feeling of waiting for hubby to get himself emotionally involved in the ballgame called our life together.
I did act as his "handy substitute for her" and that really really makes me MAD. :mad: I am NOT that fucked up woman! I HATE HER! I DID NOT degrade him, control him or put him into some submissive role. I know how to Love unconditionally and CAN and DO!
Courage --- it is so very hard for hubby to see that in fact his IS being courageous EVERY day of his life. The shit that was done TO him would have probably completely collapsed any "average person"... but he RALLIED himself as a very very small defenseless child and is able to function exceptionally high against really shitty odds. Hell. just having the courage to get out of bed every day and hug his girls, go to work and school is HUGE! He really didnt have any "reason" to keep going on with what he had been handed in his life.. but he HAS and has done WELL with it.
I think too in this a big change happened for me internally when I just "accepted" that we ARE going to hurt each other *not intentionally tho' we dont call names shit like that* BUT that we are HUMAN and that means we are probably going to fight about dumb shit. AND I am going to make mistakes and so is he -- it gives us experience and practice in areas we never got to learn about growing up in dysfunctional enviroments with having had shitty stuff happened to us.
Our lives really ARE the most valuable things we have and our lives are made up of our experiences -- it is an honor Blue that you are so brave as to share your experiences with us also.
SAR~ you touched something in me that was a very critical turning point in my own life and healing process.
What people have said about conversion experience, snapping out of it, getting away from it, all that has been true for me too. Before that experience, you feel trapped, frozen. Mentally and physically also... unable to speak or feel anything, to do anything. To have that conversion, I had to be physically away from her for a long time, and occupied with other things that took up a lot of my energy, and go through a somewhat horrific "wake-up" experience and I had to be in a place where I was able to do some things that I felt were all my own. Not hers. I had to make some decisions that I could feel proud of. Doing a "proud" "good" thing even though it was a little thing came as a complete shock to me. It made me think for the first time that I would be okay, doing things for myself.
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I too physically moved away from my parents... and within a yr of doing so began the BREAK & entered into pscyhotherapy and told my own hidden secrets. We were just newly married and moved from the midwest to the west coast -- half a country away and finally I no longer had that daily influx of dysfunction. It was a scarey feeling at first but it was also the most liberating time of my life. It was incredible to read what you posted and realize yet again how much I LOVED not being geographically with in easy reach from the assholes in my life (my parents & abusers). My own "mother" disgusts me beyond belief -- living some outside shell of being a "gloria steinam" in her time & yet behind closed doors being the classic "abused wife". WHEW, what a load of shit double messages I got! The little changes that were HUGE successes to keep me in therapy.. the not calling her, the not saying yes to everyones wishes, the ability to take an actual bubble bath without feeling as if it is or was "frivolous and wasteful". (ok secret i still have trouble crying)-- BUT, just walking in a 5K for a charity event was a grandiose feeling of success for me. Raising my daughter the way I SAW BEST with out constant criticism that I was "babying" them, to the ability to feed them the foods that I felt best about feeding them... it was a massive change in my life for me and about me.
Now, how did that influence or impact my hubby? I dont know.... for me it was pure freedome a real growing time.. but for my hubby hell the poor guy got discarded into a "private school" and forgotten about by his mother & then criticized like hell for wanting to live with his dad or even that bitch... he was only about 9 when he got shoved away along with his yr younger sister and then later when his baby sister turned 6 she too was "sent away". I think for him it was just another place to be sent away to, not unlike my experience of "just another foster home". So while I "grew up" he "stayed the same". We didnt really have much of a fighting chance. He still looks to me for decisions -- and stuff that irks me is the fall out from her like not being able to tell me WHERE he wants to meet for lunch, it was always , always HER choice.
I was very proud of him the day he did NOT kiss his "mothers" cheek when she came into town for a visit. I was mostly proud because she voiced her anger and him NOT kissing her and he STILL didnt kiss her! YAY!! she didn't & couldnt influence him to do it "her way" and he had found a way to NOT do it! Plus he didnt even bother to "explain to her" WHY, ... blech she doesnt brush her teeth blech blech blech!... I wasnt too damn happy tho that her particular visit oh so many yrs ago he "buried himself" in his work & teaching & volunteering & left ME to deal with her.... aaaggghhh -- BUT we survived it and now NEITHER of us does anything we dont want to do. Especially when it comes to dealing with our extended family.
Ok.. now I have babbled on and on... but it was really good to "hear" ALL of your inputs.
Blue, I do hope your seeking some therapy at least for yourself... YOU MATTER! So does your HUBBY ....
I read a book written by a minister a long time ago Charlie Shedd -- in it he describes our souls and selves as being much like a "water pump". You know~ the kind like at grandma's house... a "hand pump". One has to Prime the Pump with a cup full of water before it will work. The pump will give that one or two cup full of water without being primed, but if you dont wisely use that water to put back into the pump the pump will dry up. We are like that with even our partners in this life. WE must be primed with our cup full of water -- once we do the priming we can give and give as much water as the pump can find...
You're WORTH the Priming! WE ALL ARE! :)
Peace, Sammy
 
blue and sammy,
not minimizing the episode over the car that you and your husband experienced, sammy, but i had to smile in one sense. when it comes to such things as our cars, it is similar to the "cult of masculinity" concept put forth by pas. it is dificult to explain to the uninitiated, so to speak, but such things are typically not about cash investment returns. personally, i have a 76 vehical that by all intents and purposes should be towed to the scrap yard and end up in the happy driving grounds that all such cars go to at one point or another. it will take a lot of cash to get this car to where i want it to be and that cash would more appropriately be spent on a number of other more "practical" expenses, but that would be missing the point of such a project. men do this kind of thing even if there was never any abuse in our lives as children, can't explain it, it is just a fact of our gender, however, when the history of abuse is figured in then there is a major difference. abuse of any sort takes away something very fundamental from a child, for boys victimized by their maternal perps, there is something even more drastic that is stolen. in one sense, it is our emerging masculinity that is stolen because we are ripped apart emotionally for being the gender we are. i do not define masculinity by how many cars one works on, or number of grunts per day, or the decisiveness of daily decisions...masculinity, in part, is the comfort we feel in our gender, the confidence we have in ourself as a human being and as a man. this is a large part of what was stolen from us by our maternal perps. there is no confidence or comfort in our gender or daily lives as adults because we do not know how to be confident or comfortable in those roles because the only role we ever had in our formative years was as a toy by our manipulative, maternal perps. along comes a project such as a car that should be junked and for once we have a chance to make something in our image...is it no wonder we try so hard to create what we wish we could be from a broken wreck? it is so difficult for us to be able to see the good things we do accomplish in our relationships with our wives and our children because they are this huge confusing black hole of people and emotions, but a car? it is tangible, and we can see the hands on improvements of our efforts to bring this broken wreck into a showroom screamer that would finally prove to ourselves in a way that is not jumbled with emotions that we are men who can rebuild a shattered hulk.

we know that we can be very frustrating, this is the number one lesson we learned at the knee of our perps, and that is why it is so terrifying for us to face the mystery of our loved ones that share our lives. does this justify the pain and confusion we all suffer from this legacy of survival? not at all. what it does do is show that we try, we really do, but it has to be in ways that we can understand and see that we can rebuild a shattered wreck. take care.
 
Originally posted by blue:
I think it is critical for my husband to break free of his denial and face his issues before he kills himself. I do not control that and I can not make it happen. I do not want to facilitate his self-destruction.
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This is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE situation to be in. I completely identify as my father has been alcoholic/suicidal off and on my whole life. It seems when you are dealing with this you have two choices - both are shitty. Do you cover up for suicidals and save their lives but just prolong the pain and save yoruself a whole pile of hurt and anger by keeping them alive, or do you let them wallow in their pain in the hopes that they will eventually get help but with the risk of them going off the deep end and killing themselves? What a choice!!!

All the advice in the world says that you should let them wallow in it and let them feel their pain and then they will get help, but there are no guarantees with suicidals. That is one thing that I know all too well.

Again all I can say to you is that those of us dealing with suicidals have to TRY and let them wallow in their own pain enough to let them feel it and hopefully get help but if you are scared that they have gone too far over the line and are a risk to themself then RUN dont walk to get them inpatient help in any way possible... if it is your regions' laws if they are a danger to themselves in some places it is the law that they must go to a hospital - hell call the cops if you have to save their lives...

It is a HORRIBLE situation to be in and I can identify as I have lived my entire life under this threat. My only advice to you is try as much "tough love" as possible - tell him frankly that he has a problem with his substance abuse and his personal neglect and with the relationship and what you will do and what you wont do/put up with, let him deal with that and his other issues and dont cover up for him BUT at the same time be educated, aware and alert to the signs of possible suicide and if you are scared then get professional help should that situation start to arise.

Hugs to you I am there in this struggle with you not with my partner but with my father. You are not alone.

P
 
Theo~
yes I agree whole heartedly that the whole concept of rebuilding in your image from the broken junk. HOWEVER at some point hubby must come to the understanding that one does not need to invest perfectly good money & self to "just rebuild". It is ok and acceptable and one is entitled to "buy new" rather than "accpept and rebuild old". Hubby has a lot of practice of making old & broken better or at least "tolerable"... but he Deserves new. New can be scarey...
New has never had anyone else in the "drivers seat" or had anyone else change the oil -- or even heaven forbid, had to have a new engine or head installed. New hasnt shown any tire tread except what he has put on it... or shown any minor "bugs" that maybe are just part of the design flaws.... scarey stuff when there is no "history" to prepare oneself for the unnexpected. Could be good on gas mileage or be a complete lemon that needs to go to the junk yard --- HOWEVER until he "test drives" the new he will never know. Just because there are known flaws in the old doesnt make them more stable or long lasting --- I knew the engine was pretty good odds for another 50,0000 so I "expected" this and am not surprised... but WHY not risk actually getting the "full 250,000" out of her?
Because WITH new comes more responsibility to change the oil regualar, change the oil, check the reviews, and even to be responsible if she gets a dent or worse blows the engine... no one to give responsibility to BESIDES the "new owner".
So yes while it is more of a "masculine" thing -- all folks do it in some sort of comparison I think --- for me its getting a "new kitchen" I am a bit overwhelmed at actually "having choice" of the new drywall & results of my taping mudding and even paint color -- hey I like my choice but now I can "see" more of my mudding mistakes and yea they are a little "brighter" than I actually imagined --- but they are MINE to own. THE BEST part of that tho is that I still have the option to change any damn thing I want from color to repairing the mudding mistakes. :)
In essence I am not just living with someone elses choices and repairing them to "acceptable" tolerance levels for what I want to live with.. I got a WHOLE BLANK PALETTE that "I" painted!!
So... for hubby to break his "mothers" influence I think he needs (of course in his own time) to recognize that he NOW has complete choice on WHAT and HOW he wants to invest.
His tools are coming into place, he has tools that he has used all along but does he HAVE to work that much "harder" rather than "smarter"?
His Choice --- and driving a hot new number that can do 0 - 70 in less than 10 can get him the "flag" in the end. :)
man I love analolgies... LOL!
now I wanna go race the bike... uh oh
Speedy Sammy :D
 
i really debated about directing this response via pm because on the surface it did not seem to directly relate to the thread. i realized though, that it did, only each will have to take their experience from it. i love analogies and imagery as well, though i really try to keep it in perspective, as we all do. i have a strong tendency to take an image and give it more credibility than it deserves beyond the immediate discussion. i realized that as i was drafting a response to your post, sammy.

at some point survivors do indeed have to realize that we are entitled to something new. what guy would not give his left lugwrench for a chance to drive away in 2004 vette? not a single one. for a survivor, that requires one thing, the acceptance that such a thing is deserved. for me personally, i struggle everytime with buying anything new for myself because i cannot conceive of any inherent "deservedness" that i could possess. i don't buy new clothes until my old ones are beyond repair. i feel guilty buying a magazine that strikes my interest for crying out loud. repairing a car is not just an analogy, it is a fundamental truth about our self perception. sinking, elsewhere, as posted a request for help in understanding what his wife is going through. this illustrates something very fundamental for us, we have to "fix" things...anything, or anyone else other than ourselves because we cannot see we deserve it. those male survivors here who have made progress enough in their healing to begin to recognize and accept that essential deservedness are heros to us who begin our journey on a daily basis. and the women who share our lives who are survivors as well just awe and confuse us even more oftimes because we have seen the kind of abuse adult male perps have perpetrated on us and can vividly imagine what it was like for the women we love. how can we, who begin each day in our journey, hope to compare to the strength we witness in others when we struggle with guilt over buying a silly magazine? so we try to repair that broken down car and step by step we gradually come to the point where we can begin to see that the magazine is not such a major issue after all.

this thread started with blue wondering about the diabolical authority wielded by maternal perps in the lives of the sons they victimized. there has been that compassion that we men are so grateful for from our partners. speaking for myself alone, that 76 automobile is a labor of love...not to the car, or the "cult of masculinity", but to myself. at this point in my life, that car is the only thing i allow myself to consider worthy of rebuilding about myself. but as each new piece goes on to this classic i hear the demands of my maternal perp that much less. i am not building a car, i am building my life in a way that i can see, and through this i am able to see that in the end, i deserved it. take care, one and all.
 
Theo,

what guy would not give his left lugwrench for a chance to drive away in 2004 vette? not a single one. for a survivor, that requires one thing, the acceptance that such a thing is deserved. for me personally, i struggle everytime with buying anything new for myself because i cannot conceive of any inherent "deservedness" that i could possess. i don't buy new clothes until my old ones are beyond repair.
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This has been me exactly! And I'm damn well going to fix that! Next summer I'm going to buy myself that Fiat Spider that I've always been dreaming of! I'm not sure I can afford it, but I sure deserve it! I'll just have to sell another house or two. Peace, Andrew
 
andrew,
weave that web and watch the intersections!!!

:D :D :D
 
Theo~
I hope that you understand that I am not in anyway advocating that anyone should "give up" repairing the old car. Or using the tools that are working successfully for any issues. I am simply saying I geuss that the option should always be considered to "buy new" also. To try new avenues of living life and dealing with those issues. Heck often times we use BOTH at the same time to live life and deal with our "issues".
and I fully believe that it is a growing process one that is taken in small steps not huge BITES -- that can be detrimental to effective change also. A "self sabotage" in some sorts.
While I know that hubby "fixes things" to clear his mind, soothe his soul etc... for me I "clean" as I clean out my mental stuff & emotional stuff. Re organizing my physical surroundings actually is a process in conjunction to reorganizing my own thoughts. The same as hubby does as he "fixes" and repairs things.
These types of physical actions effect the emotional actions occuring... and yes I do give weight in there that somehow men do really think & process differently than women. I do not think that is total bunk or without credit.
However -- my frustration at hubby's choice of spending his cash is that the "way" he was choosing to spend the money. If he had planned and processed facts first it would not have angered me or upset me... After all he and I both have a thing about building and repairing cars & bikes together -- its a bonding , loving thing we do together ... so I get that part too.
I hope you know that in no way would I intentionally minimize or invalidate real healing processes or functioning coping tools for any one survivor or not.
Peace, and Keep the Engines Running!
Sammy
 
i owe an apology to everyone who has been following this thread, and especially to blue who asked some very important questions about male survivors. my apology is due to my tendency to make things far more complicated then they need to be. when i am on a roll, watch out :) !

what i meant to say is really simple, but i got caught up in the analogy and took it further than it needed to be. the essential question was, in part, the influence a maternal perp has on her grown son and why this is the case. bottom line, blue, our maternal perps took the one thing away from us that no one else could. one could call it innocence, simple faith, whatever...boys are raised to revere their mothers, and respect their fathers. this is the image our society has of what the parental roles are supposed to be. motherhood is an image that practically all other relationships are judged by for boys that become men. when a mother distorts that into something so despicable as physical or emotional emotional incest everything else that follows is corrupted in the perception of the boy. this does not mean everything becomes evil, it means that the world is seen through the eyes of the woman that perpetrated so evil a crime against her son. this is not to minimize any abuse anyone else suffers and survives, it just points out the difference in one respect that maternal perpetrators have on their sons. we are not able to see the world through the eyes we would have developed on our own in a healthy parent/child, mother/son relationship so everything becomes tainted by the way we were victimized. the one person who was supposed to love us above any other person chose to use us for her own twisted needs. we go out of our way to please, protect, serve, etc, those who share our life after we become adults but we are still that little boy who .....

i have to stop there. blue, maternal perps maintain their hold on us and distort our lives because, in a manner of speaking, they stole our freedom to be. until we are able to find some way out of that ugly cycle all we can do is stumble and pray that we do not hurt those who share our lives too badly. inside every male survivor of maternal abuse there is a terrified little boy who wants nothing more than to please the one who we were taught had the greatest power over us because we wanted to be safe, and we wanted to be loved. that was all we wanted. until we can believe we are safe and loved for who we are we remain that terrified little boy trying to please the one who was supposed to love and nurture us.

sorry, i have to stop. i hope this cleared up my ramblings from before. ladies, each of you are our only proof that what we were forced to learn was a lie. we male survivors are still responsible for our choices, you are not responsible for our happiness or healing. all we want is the freedom to learn the truth and to see what real honesty and love can mean in the daily lives we share with you in letting us know with the love and compassion that brought you here to learn of our struggles that when we do make mistakes it is not the end of the world as we know it or the end of a relationship. what we want is the things we never had as boys, truth, honesty, and love as it is meant to be. take care, everyone.
 
Originally posted by theo:
ladies, each of you are our only proof that what we were forced to learn was a lie.
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Sweeeet!! :)

And in the inverse, the same is true for so many of you guys on here as well as the strength and courage my partner is showing on his journey. This has taught me that what I was forced to learn as a little girl about how men are supposed to treat women was also a lie!
 
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