Anxiety dealing with people

[martin]

Hello all,

I'm posting this here cause I think it goes along with Danny's recent post.

I find myself really anxious and nervous communicatiing with people. I so often feel that I am being judged or starting to judge other people.

It makes me feel so small sometimes, invisible. Or like I am sure that I am a phony and it will soon be revealed to all. Even here I'm sure everyone is just tolerating the drivel that I post just to be nice. I don't know what I am talking about and certainly don't have anything useful to offer.

It seems to be the story of my life so far. I would withdraw when I felt this way and end up terribly alone.

Where I am I going with this? Not sure? Even as I write this I realize how much better I'm doing my outlook seems much improved over even a month ago. As I'm writing this I feel kinda removed from myself, out of body.

Here is what it is I think, I just talked with my neighbor first real converation we had since I moved here 1 1/2 years ago. It felt awkward, but good to talk with him. Then I noticed afterward I felt triggered wanted to smoke or view porn. Why in the hell would talking to my neighbor about just everday stuff make me want to see pornography?

Another example is my sister called me this weekend and wanted me to go check on my parents dog since they are out of town. The tought of having to talk with her made me want to suck down a pack of cigarettes. What is that about?

BTW I didn't watch any porn and only smoked a couple of cigarettes - feel good about that.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud and this isn't very composed. Sorry for that.

What is it about talking with other people that gets me so anxious and triggered? Am I agoraphobic?

Need some help making sense of this.

Sincerely and humbly your brother,

Aaron

 

[martin]

Sorry I meant anthropophobia (fear of people). Not agoraphobia.

Aaron

 

[The Dean]

Hi Aaron,

I wonder if some of our fears, especially those that have to do with dealing with people, do not come from things that have been said to us. Some perps said really horrid things to their victims. Other times, we hear what people say about men who have been abused--they usually think we wanted it.

I have dealt with people that are very bright, very successful, very powerful men and women. They seem to have no fears, no doubts about anything, and many of them give the impression that anyone who would think otherwise would be idiotic. Sometimes I feel like they know something that I don't know and that is why they are so self-confident.

What that does to me is it makes me feel inadequate, less than, dumb. Since I have been really open about the CSA, I find that some people are very compassionate, others seemed frightened to death nearly, some practically say that after a boy is ten years old, he had to be cooperative. They understnad nothing about the power perps have over us.

So, even though I like people and enjoy conversations, I have come to not like being in large crowds, I like speaking with one or two people rather than a group of people, at parties etc. And, as I mentioned somewhere else, I always have a feeling that an ambush is just around the corner.

Maybe some of that might be familiar to you. People told and tell huge lies to us. Unfortunately for some of us, we believed them to be the truth.

Bob

 

[Lloydy]

Aaron

It makes me feel so small sometimes, invisible. Or like I am sure that I am a phony and it will soon be revealed to all. Even here I'm sure everyone is just tolerating the drivel that I post just to be nice. I don't know what I am talking about and certainly don't have anything useful to offer.

If I replied to that statement with "Aaron, you talk rubbish !" which way would you take it ?

Would you immediately think that I was saying that you talk rubbish all the time, or would you think that I was stating my opinion that that statement is rubbish ?

I'm not rubbishing you at all, I promise you that, and I fully realise that you wrote that as an expression of how you sometimes feel, and that's perfectly valid.

The point I'm trying to make is that although we feel that way, and I've been there, other peoples comments and reactions towards us can often be taken two or more ways, but I know which way I used to think, the most negative way possible, always putting myself down.

But as I healed my self esteem grew, I began to believe that "maybe I'm not so f*****g useless after all" - and eventually that gave way to thinking "to hell with it ! I'm as good as the next man"

And now, If I'd written something like you did, and people dissagreed with me I don't take it as a personal put down, I see it as their opinion which might be different to mine.
And that leads me to looking at, and maybe arguing about, what's being said more closely, and learning from it if I can.

Sometimes we just have to look from a different angle.

Dave

 

[dwf]

Aaron,

Great topic!

I think that you're on to something about the dis-ease you feel around others being related to the effects of sexual abuse.

It seems very reasonable to believe that, in my case for example, the years of denying, covering up, lying and just plain dishonest living would tend to make me worry about being found out.

Of course what I was lying and being dishonest about was the reality of being sexually abused by a man who was 40 years older than me and of a different race.

He was supposed to be like a father to me. Instead he involved me in sexual activities far beyond my level of maturity and then taught me to lie and deceive others about it.

I never heard any of my peers talking about having sex with their fathers, so I sort of instinctively knew that it was a fact to be hidden.

After a while, I became so disconnected from my feelings that there were almost 2 different Dannys in my head--and they didn't know each other. One had sex with his guardian; the other didn't.

That situation alone caused me more anguish and grief than any adult could take; even more difficult for a 15 year old boy.

Premature sexualization, in my experience, derails the natural maturation process. I didn't have room inside of me to be a 15year old boy--I was occupied trying to figure out how to act so that no one would know that I had been sucking this 55 year old man's dick.

I felt ashamed of the Danny who did those things; it felt like love to me and I craved love so desperately. To be ashamed of love is a great tragedy.

It marred my development and continues to this day to cause problems in my intimate relations.

I'm still pretty good at pretending. Though, today I do it in a concious and deliberate manner. I remember that I have a choice about how I react. When I was younger, it wasn't a choice. It was all I could do.

So today for example, I often act "as if..." which to me is different from the denial and pretending of the cover up of the abuse.

I "act as if..." I were a worthy, lovable human being, giving others a chance to see that in me too. I act as if I were valuable and loveable.
That's a lot of what I get from hanging around you guys. Pretty cool, huh?

Sounds like you really are making a lot of progress. I am damned proud of you. This stuff is hard!! But not as hard as living alone with all that shame and secrecy.

Congratulations! This is some of the hardest work a human being can be called to do.

You are not only doing it, you are doing it very successfully. Recovering from a serious car accident is difficult, but the injuries in that case are overt and conspicuous. The damage of sexual abuse demands to be hidden; demands to remain unacknowledged; demands our complicity in our own slow torturous death.

The really treacherous aspect of sexual abuse is that it carries a strong element of betrayal.
Not just our betrayal by others. But a sense of self-betrayal

We feel betrayed, because we have been betrayed.
We become fearful of real human contact, because in our closest human contact, our most intimate,
we have been seriously damaged.

Today I know that it is possible to recover. That I can overcome the effects of the abuse.

It takes action--doing the very things you are doing, my friend. Practicing and growing and changing.

Most people get to do this stuff at home, in private with the help of a loving family.

We who have had our youth perverted by abuse, must
find a way to regain our growth and restart our
development. We have to do it in public, as adults. And we do.

I think that I have found a way to do that; and I believe that you have too.

Next time you go into a fearful situation, try
imagining that some of us are there with you.

Standing by your side, supporting you and telling you how much we care for you, and how much we appreciate your worth as a loving human being.

I bet that'll help!

Glad you're here, brother. You help me a lot and I appreciate you so much.

Thanks,

Your nervous, worried, anxious, but growing brother,

 

[Ivanhoe]

God, you guys are good. What a team!!

Aaron brings up a topic so important to all of us and then Bob, Dave and Danny weigh in with stuff that encourages us to grow from boys into men, loving, caring men.
I thank God every night for you guys.

I wish that we could have been there for each other, then. That's the fantasy.

We are here for each other, now. That's the reality.

I'm gunna do what Danny suggested, I'm gunna take you guys along with me tomorrow when I face some of the folks that make me nervous.

Thanks, brothers, sleep well, peace, strength and courage,

Brother David

 

[Sans Logos]

Martin,

Don't think for a minute that you have nothing important to say or add to the cacophony of voices. Just your being here is a milestone in the yellow brick road we are paving.

Go ahead, feel awkward; as you regain your strength, your power, your voice, this will subside, but don't let feelings keep you from contributing. Getting better does not rest on feelings. Feelings are sand.

I learn from every person here. Each one contributes to the power that I receive in order to say what I have needed to say for many years.

Don't worry, one day you will feel really stong, and from then on there will be no going back, because you will realize that we are not a bunch of ghosts, and you are not alone.

I'm with Danny: act "as if".

Ron

 

[Lloydy]

Danny

I think that I have found a way to do that; and I believe that you have too.

Next time you go into a fearful situation, try
imagining that some of us are there with you.

Standing by your side, supporting you and telling you how much we care for you, and how much we appreciate your worth as a loving human being.

I bet that'll help!

I use this all the time, I turned my old fantasies and dissasociation on their heads and used the........would you call it a 'talent' ? whatever it is, I used the talent of creating all day sex fantasies, and other "I'm the winner !" fantasies into conversations in my head.

My old fantasies could be incredibly detailed, and if I'm struggling with something now I can use that ability for creating detail to imagine a conversation with someone. And it's either someone here or in the group I go to.

I can drive around at work and 'live' the conversation, I can have imaginary arguments ( and I don't have to be winner any more )

They're no longer the day long marathons I used to create, they mostly last a few minutes. But they help me to put things that are concerning me into perspective.

The only thing I have to watch is that I don't start arguing with myself out loud, the men in white coats don't seem to like that

Dave

 

[martin]

Thank you All for your support,

Danny that is simply brilliant advice, to imagine "as if".

The main reason for my high anxiety level this week is the continuing saga with my family. Something I can't seem to break free of.

You see for the next two weeks my niece and nephew (7 & 13, respectively) are staying with my parents. So naturally its expected that I go and see them. I do want to too, I could think of nothing better than being able to spend some time with them. The problem is I will have to deal with my parents who I haven't spoken with in over a month, a mortal sin if you would ask them.

That anxiety spills over into the rest of my life. My anxiety level was on a pretty steady decline since I first came here, now its sky high, headin for the moooon!!!

The problem with my parents is how they make me feel, the little ways they, judge, cajole, manipulate and make me feel guilty. My mother even says that it is a mothers job to make her children feel guilty.

And guilty I do feel, even though I know with firm and solid conviction (wavers a little) that I have done nothing wrong. Goes back to when I was about 5 or 6, I conffessed to a crime I did't comit and was punished pretty harshly for it. This trend continued in my youth, I didn't know how to stop it or set it right, subsequently I felt guilty for many things I never did. Didn't even dream of doing. But I was punished for them, so I must of bore some guilt, or so I thought.

You know now to mention it, I never really stole anything but was accused of it. A couple dollars at a time from my mom's purse for cigarettes when I was a teen.

Probably is the reason I am so honest today, I'm not gonna take the blame for anything I didn't do or feel like I didn't say something that I should have. -- Wow!! An epiphinany!

BTW I think it was probably my brother who stole all those things that I took the blame for. The same one who SA'd me when I was 6 and later teamed up with my aunt to SA me.

The same brother that is the father to my niece and nephew that are visiting.

This is so sad, as I write it becomes clearer how bent and cracked my family is. How possible it is beyond repair. There is so much hurt and confusion.

As I write this, I see it more clearly it kinda moves farther away but is sadder all the same.

Give me a minute here...

The thing is that the power and pull of my parents is so strong with me, I want so much to please them. To be a good son. But for so long they have tried to keep a broken family together I know that they would without a doubt try to bend me back into the family fold. A family that I would dissappear in, get so lost in. There is such mixed up batch of secrecy, anger, love, and lonlieness there.

I'm not sure, that everyone feels that way maybe just my own perspective. I'm pretty sure my sister escaped much of it. Which I am grateful for.

Whats my point, sorry I'll conclude this soon.

The point is that I both fear and love my family. I fear getting pulled in being so captively held by the gravity of their judgement, love, guilt, and denial. But I also don't want to be rejected by them. A quandry with no solution just continued suspension.

I know the answer. I must be free of them, to find healthly ground free from being subjected to unneeded guilt and judgement. But I am afraid of making that break too.

They are not bad people, I know they are not its just that the chemistry in my family is sour, at least to me. I do believe thst they can heal and change but know that they must seek it for themselves, I can't bring it to them.

As of right now I can't say that I won't go see them. It seems unjust to let my nephew and niece wonder or feel hurt because I didn't show. I don't want to hurt them.

Maybe I am just making to much of all this too? Am I?

If I do go I will try to take you guys with me. To be there and feel as if you were with me.

Thanks for reading this, its been clarifying to write it.

Love
Aaron

 

[outis]

Aaron,

You are a part of the family, so if you decide to go on your own terms, it's really just you participating in your own family's get together. And if you decide you can't make this one for your own sake, it's you taking care of yourself.

Either way, you win.

Joe

 

[The Dean]

Hi Aaron,
It was neat to read your post and watch you working some things out there.

My feeling would be that if your parents said something that was out of line to you about you, you could, ever so gently tell them that they know full well that it is not the truth.

I wonder if there are many families that are not hampered in one way or another. My own belief is that insisting on everyone being truthful, in an assertive way, is good.

I took a workshop once on how to be an assertive teacher. It was great. The main point was to just keep repeating, without emotion, the truth.e.g. "Yes Mrs Jones, I understand that you think I am the worst teacher in history and I must be fired. But Bobby has failed the course." A person can go on and on like that and actually it can be kind of fun. People who are angry of mean spirited just do not know how to react to a peerson who is completely calm and simply recites the truth.

I found it so much better than getting into arguments and getting to a point where I as well as the parents, were so emotional that we were not listening to eact other.

I think you could apply this to your family. It is not mean or sarcastic, it just keeps driving the point on home.

I hope you really enjoy you visit with your parents and your niece and nephew...who I hope are safe.

Bob

 

[Sans Logos]

Aaron,

I have one suggestion,

If you decide to go, then determine in advance how long you will stay. Draw some boundries for yourself. For instance, go, but drop in unannounced and only stay for "a minute" or long enough to give a hug and exchange formalities.

Without giving the impression that you will negotiate your decision, stick to your plan, and don't take off your coat, or don't take a chair. Just remain kindly insistent that you have a deadline and stopped in because you were "in the area".

If you feel comfortable enough, then plan a lengthier visit, again with some guideline for your self. However, the second you begin to sense you are being manipulated then get the hell out of there.

With all the pleasantry that I can muster, and with all due r-e-s-p-e-c-t: we can't be a doormat unless we lie down.

Good luck, you powerful person, you,

Ron

 

[Ivanhoe]

Oh, Aaron, you posted a most difficult post for me.
I'm one of these people that believes that you don't owe your parents anything, nichts, nada. If they wanted to be friends with you, they, we as parents, would have built in some boundaries, feelings, good thoughts, along with the love they could have had for you while you were growing up, to assure some mutual respect so that parents, themselves, can move into a friendship mode as you, we, us, our kids, were/are growing up.
So, here you got some great encouragement from the guys and I weigh in with permission, and maybe a good reason or two for you, not to go.
If you do, I too, would plan on only a short visit and maybe that hug, for your niece and nephew.
Family gatherings can be murder, that's why we have all of this classic literature about families and how badly they can treat one another.
In the best of families, interacting is difficult. In wounded families, with recovering
members, and members "who let it all hang out" and don't give a shit, run, I say, grab a life jacket--that be us--and get your ass out of there, or stay the hell away.
You are one incredible brother and you are in control now, if they can put on nicy nice faces for their get together, great, if not, it's up to you if you want to take the chance on having old wounds reopened.
Trying to be your loving brother but maybe I'm pushing too hard,
David

 

[Lloydy]

Aaron
"Families - who'd have them ?"

But we've all got them somewhere, and so many of us have problems with them even if like me they weren't abused by them.

Even now I still have feelings of "why wasn't I protected by them ?" completly irrational given the circumstances of my abuse, they didn't know what happened to me and if they did my Mother would have pulled their f****g arms and legss off ! she was a fearsome woman, still is I suppose.

Add to that the fact that I was always being compred - badly - to my 8 year older brother and older cousins, then I believe it's no wonder that I feel distant from them.

From the age of 11 I went to boarding school, at 16 I was in college and doing an apprenticeship, and I was married at 21.
I hardly know them. And now they're both elderly and getting infirm I go to hell and back because I feel guilty for not caring enough.
My dad's been to hospital today for some checks, my wife took him in, and I haven't even phoned him tonight. I just kept putting it off with bullshit excuses until it was too late.

They say you don't appreciate someone until they're gone, and I'm already dreading the guilt that will entail.

I try, most of the time, but do I try enough ?

Funnily enough, most of my school reports said "Could do better if he tried" - carve it on my stone.

Dave

 

[martin]

Thank you all,

This is a very difficult and delicate situation, as I have not yet disclosed my SA to anyone in my family. All they see is that I'm being uncommunicative.

Its also a delicate time for myself, I don't want to continue to deny what took place. That would be to deny myself, something I did for a long time. At the same time I don't feel up too disclosing to my family. I feel strongly that I will and I want to. It needs to come when I feel ready.

I have to give myself the time I need, thats an important realization. Often I've done things by others timetable and found that it was counterproductive.

Ron:

If you decide to go, then determine in advance how long you will stay. Draw some boundries for yourself. For instance, go, but drop in unannounced and only stay for "a minute" or long enough to give a hug and exchange formalities.

Without giving the impression that you will negotiate your decision, stick to your plan, and don't take off your coat, or don't take a chair. Just remain kindly insistent that you have a deadline and stopped in because you were "in the area".

Thats a really great idea. A great way to handle it, caring, but keeping your own sense of respect and you boundaries. Thanks!

David:

I'm one of these people that believes that you don't owe your parents anything, nichts, nada. If they wanted to be friends with you, they, we as parents, would have built in some boundaries, feelings, good thoughts, along with the love they could have had for you while you were growing up, to assure some mutual respect so that parents, themselves, can move into a friendship mode as you, we, us, our kids, were/are growing up.

I agree with you, people aren't deserveing of our respect who do not respect us, no matter what their relation to us is.

I do love my parents and they have given me so much. Thats what makes this so hard.

Thank you everyone, very much. Bob, Dave, Danny, David, Ron, and Joe. Its great to know so many intelligent, decent, compassionate men.

I'll let you know what I do.

Also I think it would be a good idea to post a thread about what to do, what to expect, and how to handle it when you first disclose your SA. Think'll I'll start one in the public forums, drop in if you get a chance.

Peace and love,
Aaron

Oh i know its confusing about my name being that my username is martin. First name is Aaron, used a my middle name I registered was never imaginative soming up with those usernames. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[outis]

I have not yet disclosed my SA to anyone in my family. All they see is that I'm being uncommunicative.

It needs to come when I feel ready.

Aaron,

I just went through something like that. I did not disclose to my parents until a couple weeks ago. I had been avoiding conversations/phone calls/etc for months.

I felt very uncomfortable about the way I avoided my parents especially. Eventualy I told my parents, but not my siblings, when I thought there was a chance they were going to find out anyway, and not from me. By that time I guess I was ready.

I think your realization is right on. It might not feel "comfortable" when you're ready, but I think you will know when you are ready.

And your name really isn't any more confusing than the names some of us use. Did you wonder how I pronounce "outis" to get "Joe" out of it?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[RickL]

This is a very good thread. I'd like to weigh-in with some ideas.

For myself, I have attempted to practice "loving detachment" regarding my parents. I have worked for years on forgiveness. Of course, I also understand that feeling of being with the family. There's a part of me that feels good in their presence, because of familiarity. And yet, I find myself struggling with defining whether or not those interactions are "loving".

It's been painful for me to come to the realization that my relationship with my parents is best when I don't look to them to give me parenting--don't look for the affirmation, don't look for love, and most of all, don't look for the parenting my little boy so desperately needed (but didn't get) from them.

I had always thought my mom was so loving and that my dad was evil. At least, this is the way the little kid experienced them. But now I'm seeing that my dad was sort of sick, and that my mom's way with me as her son was more that of an older sister or perhaps a hired servant. Not really a parent who would step up and protect me from his abuse. She too was afraid of him, and yet completely mesmerized by him. It's chilling to write that, but it was the case. I was like a "shield" for her in a way, and on a certain level my dad knew it and hated me for it (he was my abuser).

So now I'm getting some understanding as to why, beginning in early adolescence, I tried to rely on friends in a way that was too much--because now I know that I was really looking to be parented, not just befriended. And it's also sobering to realize that my mother, who I always thought had been a good, loving parent to me, really did not parent me very well. But that explains a lot for me.

So bottom line--I have no illusions of a Norman Rockwell family. And since I'm learning to parent myself, and getting support from you all here, it's finally ok.

Rick

 

[The Dean]

As I read posts here at MS, I have a range of emotions. Often, there is sadness as I picture you men as yourself at the age you write about. I want it to all be good for you, and I wish it had better good for me.

What a complex situation it is. So many of us, have been harmed by a family member, or someone who was so close to us, that they were certainly like extended family.

We have become well aware, that people who harm other people, have almost always, had a prior harm to themselves. It does not excuse a thing. But, it makes me think of how difficult it would be to make any one family really well and together again.

Who abused the father, who abused his son, and who abused that father etc. etc. etc. Lots of healing over generations would be needed. What a miracle it would be, if we could all at least talk, about the abuse given and received.

Rick, I think you have focused on what is needed. We get as well as we can be. How our family works into that is not as important, but still important. If ,or when, we can extend our healing beyond ourselves to other members of the family we do it. But it need not be our goal.

Maybe, the only family I can try to make sure, are well as they can be, is the family that came after me. My nephews, and their children, and now their children. I am feeling a need to connect better with the family I still have. Thanks Rick.

Bob

 

[guy43]

Aaron,

I hope you've found some answers or at least a direction of thinking to look at. A lot of good replies. Some of the posts on this have been painfully pointed for me, that is, I resonant with many of the complaints... but most of all - can you say social phobia? I've had it almost all my life and didn't know it or why I had such a hard time meeting new people, making friends, and keeping them.

I was naturally shy as a kid, during and after my abusive uprearing, I became so isolated, depressed, and withdrawn from people. Somehow, I managed to function at various jobs.

It's gotten better for me since I've been taking Effexor and two other antidepressants. The Effexor has done wonders reducing my fear of people in general as well as social situations.

David(Ivanhoe), you wrote:

I'm one of these people that believes that you don't owe your parents anything, nichts, nada. If they wanted to be friends with you, they, we as parents, would have built in some boundaries, feelings, good thoughts, along with the love they could have had for you while you were growing up, to assure some mutual respect so that parents, themselves, can move into a friendship mode as you, we, us, our kids, were/are growing up.

I had to laugh else I'd be crying. What a novel thought... respecting one's parents. I can't say I have much for either parent, mom who didn't protect me from dad-thing.

It's been really difficult for me to get past the mom guilt trip thing. [detour - no offence meant - GUILT: The Jews invented it, the Catholics perfected it].

At age 43, I could scream to realize how I haven't cut the "apron strings", seeing how mommy-dearest has no intentions of ever doing it. Even though I haven't lived with her since age 17-43 (with a two year mistake of moving into her house), the guilt trips abounded, and I've bought them, hook, line and sinker (anchor?, battleship going down?). I've been making big changes in my life, which is filling me with hope and optimism for the future and doesn't include my family of origin much at'all.

Can't change my inside thoughts, attitudes, then I change something on the outside. Can't change the outside, then....

It works for me.

peace brothers,

jer

 

[Mike Church]

Aaron

The point is that I both fear and love my family. I fear getting pulled in being so captively held by the gravity of their judgement, love, guilt, and denial. But I also don't want to be rejected by them. A quandry with no solution just continued suspension.

I was like you in many ways. I loved my parents although my father beat me constantly and my mother ignored me. I ran away so many times that it became a game.

It took me until I was 59 to actually confront my parents with what happened to me and I would not wish that on anyone. I held it inside from them for 43 years. Needless to say relations were tenuous at best.

What I am getting at Aaron is that you are your own person not the property of somebody else; parents included. When you visit, do so on your own terms. If the situation arises and they lay on the guilt or whatever just stop them and let them know that you are your own person. You can embelish the point or not. That is your decision.

It may be that they are aware of what you went through but are in denial or whatever to pretend it did not happen. That Aaron is there problem and not yours.

I did that after the usual attack; and this aftern my father had had a stroke and my mother was in the terminal stages of emphysemia (cant spell worth a damn). I finally just god mad and told them to stop all the shit because I had enough of it. They started again and then I really let it all out and that shut them up good. They were indignant that I would use my issues. And that was too bad because they both died within a year of my spilling the beans so to speak. But when I did it on my terms and visited them after it was always on my terms. Whenever the old manipulation, laying on the guilt etc. reared again I told them I would not tolerate it and left. I am my own person and it has been a gd tuff struggle getting to that place.

I hope this has helped a bit Aaron. A lot of the guys before me have said similar things to me but more eloquently. I am a nuts and bolts kind of guy and if I get complicated I screw up.

Just be yourself and be comfortable in that place.