Anti-gay boot camp: advice?
Free Radical
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Anti-gay boot camp: advice?
- Thread starterFree Radical
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Shyshark
Registrant
Hi FR
We are already talking in private so I won't comment except to say one thing and state it
definitively and forcefully ... and for the record.
You are not 'MADE' gay ... you are BORN gay.
I'm not a man of religion ... but I was as a boy. I can use their own arguments against them.
God doesn't make mistakes.
You can't un-make what the Lord has made.
This subject incenses me and so I'll say no more to comply with your wishes to be gentle.
Sharky
(DON"T GO!)
sorry ... I couldn't resist.
We are already talking in private so I won't comment except to say one thing and state it
definitively and forcefully ... and for the record.
You are not 'MADE' gay ... you are BORN gay.
I'm not a man of religion ... but I was as a boy. I can use their own arguments against them.
God doesn't make mistakes.
You can't un-make what the Lord has made.
This subject incenses me and so I'll say no more to comply with your wishes to be gentle.
Sharky
(DON"T GO!)
sorry ... I couldn't resist.
Winterfr3sh
Registrant
Shyshark said:
Shyshark: not everyone believes that a person is born gay. I am not ruling it out.. I can't rule it out. But I tend to think that one's sexual orientation is shaped by a complex combination of genetic and environmental factors, to put it very simply.
No one knows for sure if God makes people gay, straight or otherwise. If people claim to know, I would have to ask them how they know. The God of my understanding has not revealed that to me, or to others who share my faith.
Whether you turn out gay, straight, or wherever on the spectrum... your sexuality is a gift.
If God has given you gay or straight feelings, but has not allowed/provided for you to have gay or straight sex with the person of your choice, well then.....what do you do?
Shyshark, people in my faith have said that homosexuality is a warped, twisting of God's natural and good plan for human sexuality: involving man and woman + procreation. But I am not listening to them anymore. I view my homosexual feelings and desires as a gift now, and it's up to me what to do with them.
Free Radical, glad you're posting about this. I personally wonder if anybody on here has experienced one such camps. From what I have heard bout them, they can be abusive.
Shyshark
Registrant
Hi Winterfr3sh
I knew that would stir things up.
I've been sitting here for over an hour now ... type type type ... erase erase erase.
I just get angrier and angrier so it's best I stop.
I'm not angry at you ... far from it. I have great respect for men of faith ... any faith ... providing it isn't malicious.
Theology is not really the question at hand ...
these camps are.
Let me explain how I define malicious.
A religious group feels they are acting on the word of God by strapping a young man to a chair in front of a screen on which gay porn is being shown. In order that he gets popcorn they put a bowl of kernels in his lap and wire his balls to a battery and zap him every few minutes until the bowl is full.
The shows over ... anybody for popcorn?
How in the name of God is that not wrong!
How far should a process be allowed to go?
Maybe bring back the rack ... bamboo shoots under the finger nails ... hung by the heels over a slow fire ...
how far is it allowed to go in order to convince a young man that he is not gay?!
I'm hitting submit before I can erase it ... or have a stroke.
I knew that would stir things up.
I've been sitting here for over an hour now ... type type type ... erase erase erase.
I just get angrier and angrier so it's best I stop.
I'm not angry at you ... far from it. I have great respect for men of faith ... any faith ... providing it isn't malicious.
Theology is not really the question at hand ...
these camps are.
Let me explain how I define malicious.
A religious group feels they are acting on the word of God by strapping a young man to a chair in front of a screen on which gay porn is being shown. In order that he gets popcorn they put a bowl of kernels in his lap and wire his balls to a battery and zap him every few minutes until the bowl is full.
The shows over ... anybody for popcorn?
How in the name of God is that not wrong!
How far should a process be allowed to go?
Maybe bring back the rack ... bamboo shoots under the finger nails ... hung by the heels over a slow fire ...
how far is it allowed to go in order to convince a young man that he is not gay?!
I'm hitting submit before I can erase it ... or have a stroke.
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Glad you did not erase that, Shyshark.
I believe that aversion therapy might be useful to "control" and impose boundaries for actions like smoking, overeating, phobias, etc..
But, I do not believe that aversion therapy is very useful to control the intuitive and human emotions and feelings such as sexual attraction.
I believe that aversion therapy might be useful to "control" and impose boundaries for actions like smoking, overeating, phobias, etc..
But, I do not believe that aversion therapy is very useful to control the intuitive and human emotions and feelings such as sexual attraction.
FR,
I don't think that boot camp is the answer. I think there is enough info & ideas here online, books, other counselors / therapists to help you understand where all these cravings are coming from and to heal the early childhood hurts driving them. To save your marriage & family I'd try these first. Maybe it's time for a different counselor / therapist?
I don't believe that anyone is born gay, nor born a pedophile, nor born a philanderer. The "Born that way" idea was conjured up for political expedience & an agenda, not science. We here know that sexuality is *WAY* more complicated than born that way. Contrary to the gay agenda's popular myth of born that way, people leave homosexuality each and every everyday. No, they don't raise a fanfare about leaving it because for most, their past lifestyle is something they want to forget and put behind them, maybe even feel shame over. There are so many of us here who have already walked in your shoes and broke free of the drive to act out, and the drive to seek out what we were missing from our fathers in early childhood of attention, Fatherly love & affirmation thru errant sex with other men. I myself have done it, and I'm not special or any kind of genius...
I don't think that boot camp is the answer. I think there is enough info & ideas here online, books, other counselors / therapists to help you understand where all these cravings are coming from and to heal the early childhood hurts driving them. To save your marriage & family I'd try these first. Maybe it's time for a different counselor / therapist?
I don't believe that anyone is born gay, nor born a pedophile, nor born a philanderer. The "Born that way" idea was conjured up for political expedience & an agenda, not science. We here know that sexuality is *WAY* more complicated than born that way. Contrary to the gay agenda's popular myth of born that way, people leave homosexuality each and every everyday. No, they don't raise a fanfare about leaving it because for most, their past lifestyle is something they want to forget and put behind them, maybe even feel shame over. There are so many of us here who have already walked in your shoes and broke free of the drive to act out, and the drive to seek out what we were missing from our fathers in early childhood of attention, Fatherly love & affirmation thru errant sex with other men. I myself have done it, and I'm not special or any kind of genius...
Winterfr3sh
Registrant
Hey George: I agree with your advice to FR. well said.
Interesting how you brought up father issues. Be careful though, it sounds like you are establishing the cause of FR's gay desires to his experiences with his father. That's a very good observation, but there are more reasons behind homosexual attraction (yes, you say that in your post.) just want to remind us all of that.
Let's face it. The male body can be beautiful and sexy. Lol
And so can male love be beautiful. Male to male love and affection.
Interesting how you brought up father issues. Be careful though, it sounds like you are establishing the cause of FR's gay desires to his experiences with his father. That's a very good observation, but there are more reasons behind homosexual attraction (yes, you say that in your post.) just want to remind us all of that.
Let's face it. The male body can be beautiful and sexy. Lol
And so can male love be beautiful. Male to male love and affection.
Winterfr3sh,
Knowing his story (involving his severe father) and in writing back & forth with him, that in addition to the compounding of sexual abuse often leads guys down the path to acting out & ssa. Having first hand knowledge of this myself see these two negative forces as major causes for the problems he wants solved & *is* seeking the answers to.
What's beautiful is a father who takes the time to build up his young boy, instilling in him the proper love, attention, affection & affirmation that all boys need & crave. Filling the need to be brought into the fold of masculinity by their Dad. When they don't get that they are needy for it and will often feel like they are on the outside looking into masculinity, they feel less than, lack the self confidence in themselves and their own masculinity. These unmet needs manifest themselves in many ways, often in ssa when compounded by csa. These issues conjure up so many faulty coping mechanisms in a child's mind, control issues with acting out & conquering / seeking the approval & affirmation from other men thru sex (as a learned response from the csa) often leaves the guy feeling more shame and gets himself stuck in a cycle of abusing himself. ** I'm describing myself and a lot of other guys who've been through here & other places in the last eighteen years that I've been dealing with this stuff.
Are there cases where guys are ambivalent or even embrace the ssa? sure, that's a small number. Most don't though and want to find the way out that maze. Especially when they have a wife & children depending on them (or want them), and that's more important than just getting their rocks off for self abusive reasons that they hate themselves for.
No, unfortunately I don't see the beauty in it, I've been around it all my life having two loved & accepted gay uncles, their friends & lovers in our lives since young. I've acted out my self with guys for years, been there done that. I've just seen how it ends in the long run, way too many times... I'll spare you further details.
Knowing his story (involving his severe father) and in writing back & forth with him, that in addition to the compounding of sexual abuse often leads guys down the path to acting out & ssa. Having first hand knowledge of this myself see these two negative forces as major causes for the problems he wants solved & *is* seeking the answers to.
What's beautiful is a father who takes the time to build up his young boy, instilling in him the proper love, attention, affection & affirmation that all boys need & crave. Filling the need to be brought into the fold of masculinity by their Dad. When they don't get that they are needy for it and will often feel like they are on the outside looking into masculinity, they feel less than, lack the self confidence in themselves and their own masculinity. These unmet needs manifest themselves in many ways, often in ssa when compounded by csa. These issues conjure up so many faulty coping mechanisms in a child's mind, control issues with acting out & conquering / seeking the approval & affirmation from other men thru sex (as a learned response from the csa) often leaves the guy feeling more shame and gets himself stuck in a cycle of abusing himself. ** I'm describing myself and a lot of other guys who've been through here & other places in the last eighteen years that I've been dealing with this stuff.
Are there cases where guys are ambivalent or even embrace the ssa? sure, that's a small number. Most don't though and want to find the way out that maze. Especially when they have a wife & children depending on them (or want them), and that's more important than just getting their rocks off for self abusive reasons that they hate themselves for.
No, unfortunately I don't see the beauty in it, I've been around it all my life having two loved & accepted gay uncles, their friends & lovers in our lives since young. I've acted out my self with guys for years, been there done that. I've just seen how it ends in the long run, way too many times... I'll spare you further details.
Be so careful on here because you will get people who adamantly tell you what to believe. There are other forums to discuss some of those things but these threads on SSA can really raise hackles for some especially when the normal societal messaging on sexuality is questioned.
Don't let anyone tell you that you are gay or not or that you were born that way or not. People will often debate you and that's not what this is here for, in my opinion. I've been around long enough to disengage from those who want to debate. Follow wherever your path leads you.
A 9 month commitment to something like that is a huge undertaking. Regarding safety issues, if you really are considering going, couldn't you ask the venue/business about what kind of safety they provide? Your fears are legitimate and respectable.
Your sexual feelings are more normal or average than you think. Men can be emotionally attracted to other men and have that become sexualized and they can be confused and think that they are having sexual feelings for other men when it is really unmet emotional needs. It is definitely not as simple as either gay or straight and then that's the answer - being gay or straight! Unmet needs can be sexualized toward men and/or women. It's complicated.
Also, it is unfair that we have to deal with this stuff after being sexually abused by other people (a male adult in my case at age 13). At this point in my life, I accept it and I still get angry at times but I keep moving forward. I've started saying to myself "Okay, it's unfair. That's the truth. And you've got to keep going even though it was unfair". That came with time and commitment to a better way of life.
You're pretty brave for putting this out there.
Don't let anyone tell you that you are gay or not or that you were born that way or not. People will often debate you and that's not what this is here for, in my opinion. I've been around long enough to disengage from those who want to debate. Follow wherever your path leads you.
A 9 month commitment to something like that is a huge undertaking. Regarding safety issues, if you really are considering going, couldn't you ask the venue/business about what kind of safety they provide? Your fears are legitimate and respectable.
Your sexual feelings are more normal or average than you think. Men can be emotionally attracted to other men and have that become sexualized and they can be confused and think that they are having sexual feelings for other men when it is really unmet emotional needs. It is definitely not as simple as either gay or straight and then that's the answer - being gay or straight! Unmet needs can be sexualized toward men and/or women. It's complicated.
Also, it is unfair that we have to deal with this stuff after being sexually abused by other people (a male adult in my case at age 13). At this point in my life, I accept it and I still get angry at times but I keep moving forward. I've started saying to myself "Okay, it's unfair. That's the truth. And you've got to keep going even though it was unfair". That came with time and commitment to a better way of life.
You're pretty brave for putting this out there.
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Shyshark
Registrant
Hi Ed
You ain't just whistling Dixie.
I didn't even know this forum existed until I was asked to read a post here.
It was with trepidation that I entered ... because I knew full well what I would find.
But oh no ... I read his piece ... and like a small child told not to touch a hot stove ...
I kept reading.
My blood pressure has yet to come back down.
You may note that I posted twice ... once at 0430 in the morning! ... and was unable to make my view
heard without being pointedly prejudiced myself ... not to mention something I try very hard not to do or not to be.
Lose my temper ... and be disrespectful.
I was near heart failure before I decided that I had to take them down.
I'm not picking on this post alone ... I had to see what was in a few other posts ... rendering me a bit of a sadist.
I respect people of faith ... I was once one ... until my beloved Priest stuck his hand down my pants.
I envy people who believe in whatever God they choose ... I miss what I once had.
I miss what that bastard stole from me!
I hate 'judgemental'.
What the hell business is it of anybody who I am and what I do when I am not hurting someone else ...
when I'm a good person ... most of the time..
You are right ... for some this is not a good place ...
but DAMN ...
I can't stop the urge to touch the stove!
Sharky
You ain't just whistling Dixie.
I didn't even know this forum existed until I was asked to read a post here.
It was with trepidation that I entered ... because I knew full well what I would find.
But oh no ... I read his piece ... and like a small child told not to touch a hot stove ...
I kept reading.
My blood pressure has yet to come back down.
You may note that I posted twice ... once at 0430 in the morning! ... and was unable to make my view
heard without being pointedly prejudiced myself ... not to mention something I try very hard not to do or not to be.
Lose my temper ... and be disrespectful.
I was near heart failure before I decided that I had to take them down.
I'm not picking on this post alone ... I had to see what was in a few other posts ... rendering me a bit of a sadist.
I respect people of faith ... I was once one ... until my beloved Priest stuck his hand down my pants.
I envy people who believe in whatever God they choose ... I miss what I once had.
I miss what that bastard stole from me!
I hate 'judgemental'.
What the hell business is it of anybody who I am and what I do when I am not hurting someone else ...
when I'm a good person ... most of the time.
.You are right ... for some this is not a good place ...
but DAMN ...
I can't stop the urge to touch the stove!
Sharky
Shyshark
Registrant
Hey bud ... I'm blushing ... LOL ... you're a very sweet person yourself. That's not odd ... I'd love to chat with you again. It's been quite a while. I'm usually in chat but I've been trying to get more involved in forums. I'm not good at multitasking so I stay out of chat when I'm doing something else. We'll have to watch and meet in chat or go to messages and chat there.
Hi George,
I'm very thankful that MS provides these forums so that various opinions can be expressed and discussed. I believe, as I'm sure do most here believe, any opinion is accepted as opinion without judgement or shame. My apologies to FR for high jacking this thread for a few moments.
But having said that, I take particular offense at your backup "data" for your opinion that no one is born gay.
You seem to be inferring that since no one is born gay, obviously the gay person simply missed in early childhood attention, love and affirmation from their father.
As the (PROUD) father of two sons I'm taking from your post that it's my fault one of my sons is gay. Assuming I have not misread your post, that is either a certain amount of bullshit, or else I should hang my head in shame for failing to provide what my son needed during early childhood to keep him away from the gay agenda and from CHOOSING the gay lifestyle.
Just for the record, my other, non-gay, son is quite happily married to an outstanding lady. These guys were both raised in the same manner, and because of my CSA I was very aware of what they both needed, and received, in the way of attention, love and affirmation. Plus a constant reminder to both that I was very proud of them in whatever they may have been involved with at the time.
If you're trying to put a heavy guilt trip on me don't bother, because I refuse to believe he just needs a little aversion therapy and everything will be cool. If I misread your statement and you're not saying it's the father's fault, my apology.
I'm very thankful that MS provides these forums so that various opinions can be expressed and discussed. I believe, as I'm sure do most here believe, any opinion is accepted as opinion without judgement or shame. My apologies to FR for high jacking this thread for a few moments.
But having said that, I take particular offense at your backup "data" for your opinion that no one is born gay.
You seem to be inferring that since no one is born gay, obviously the gay person simply missed in early childhood attention, love and affirmation from their father.
As the (PROUD) father of two sons I'm taking from your post that it's my fault one of my sons is gay. Assuming I have not misread your post, that is either a certain amount of bullshit, or else I should hang my head in shame for failing to provide what my son needed during early childhood to keep him away from the gay agenda and from CHOOSING the gay lifestyle.
Just for the record, my other, non-gay, son is quite happily married to an outstanding lady. These guys were both raised in the same manner, and because of my CSA I was very aware of what they both needed, and received, in the way of attention, love and affirmation. Plus a constant reminder to both that I was very proud of them in whatever they may have been involved with at the time.
If you're trying to put a heavy guilt trip on me don't bother, because I refuse to believe he just needs a little aversion therapy and everything will be cool. If I misread your statement and you're not saying it's the father's fault, my apology.
Shyshark
Registrant
Hi Blue ...
Here's a little personal data ...
I knew a set of twins ... 1 boy 1 girl ... gay and lesbian.
Another set of twins ... 2 boys ... 1 straight/bi 1 gay as an Easter bonnet.
Triplets ... 1 boy straight(iffy) 1 boy gay 1 girl lesbian.
I have an older brother and a sister. My brother is gay.
On both sides of my family there are gay or lesbian cousins ... a few with as many as 9 straight siblings.
I just don't get how this is not nature ... how can this possibly be a lack of nurture?
It just doesn't make sense!
When that little squirt meets that little egg ... the result is determined.
Congratulations Blue.
You had 2 perfect little boys who grew up to be perfect in who they are as men.
Here's a little personal data ...
I knew a set of twins ... 1 boy 1 girl ... gay and lesbian.
Another set of twins ... 2 boys ... 1 straight/bi 1 gay as an Easter bonnet.
Triplets ... 1 boy straight(iffy) 1 boy gay 1 girl lesbian.
I have an older brother and a sister. My brother is gay.
On both sides of my family there are gay or lesbian cousins ... a few with as many as 9 straight siblings.
I just don't get how this is not nature ... how can this possibly be a lack of nurture?
It just doesn't make sense!
When that little squirt meets that little egg ... the result is determined.
Congratulations Blue.
You had 2 perfect little boys who grew up to be perfect in who they are as men.
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Shyshark
Registrant
George ... please ...
Our comments are harsh ... but they really aren't directed at you personally.
They are a condemnation of what you believe.
Life is change ... we grow ... we all change our views on things as our understanding of them grow.
I'm never going to change mine ... and I don't think Blue is going to either.
These camps ... or anything of a similar intent ...
is nothing but torture.
Our comments are harsh ... but they really aren't directed at you personally.
They are a condemnation of what you believe.
Life is change ... we grow ... we all change our views on things as our understanding of them grow.
I'm never going to change mine ... and I don't think Blue is going to either.
These camps ... or anything of a similar intent ...
is nothing but torture.
- Status
