and just when things were going so well...

and just when things were going so well...
Larry and Seeker2,

Thanks for your posts. Larry, you've given me lots to consider, and I think you're probably right. Thought I'd share your post with my T tomorrow, and I expect a look over his glasses; you might know this look. It says: So why didn't you buy into it when I told you that? He said something very similar last week. The few days away have helped to get re-centered and settled down. I'm looking forward to tomorrow's therapy.

Tomorrow will also be interesting as it includes a scheduled phone call with someone from my past, a gay man to whom I was strongly attracted and with whom I spent a fair amount of time through a common industry committee assignment. I liked him a lot, and I was very comfortable in his company, but never (intentionally) revealed anything about my past or my attraction. We're going to talk about that tomorrow. I had a similar conversation a few weeks ago with a college roommate. It was a help. We'll see how tomorrow goes. I'm very hopeful. For me it's very powerful to unlock the past, and to unlock the hold it's had on me. I respect your opinion, as I do the opinions of a great many here. Any thoughts?

Seeker2, I'm really intrigued. It's hard for me to imagine what those onion layers were, but if it was a help to you, I'm really pleased. One of the things that's tough on all of us has been keeping all these secrets for years. It's a pretty powerful experience to tell your story...but only when you are ready. I understand your reluctance right now. And you should certainly follow your instincts.

Take care, guys.

Peter
 
I remembering reading here that labels are for soup cans, it might have been Larry that said it, he usually has the good one liners. Sexuality, in my opinion, is a moving target. I think our ability to express ourselves sexually changes with our experience and the partners we are with. I value emotional fidelity and friendship above what gender a person may be having sex with. I have never lost any sleep over wondering whether I was gay, straight, bi or whatever. I just see myself as a sexual being .... although not so much now that I'm 55. Hey, it was a lot better when I was 30! Peace, Andrew
 
Telling our life story is what frees us from our past, as it grants us the opportunity to revisit our past objectively, to retrieve our memories and the wisdom embedded in them.
What we forget to understand the first time, we get the opportunity to understand the second time, for life is a continuum, and offers endless possibilities to empower ourselves. And to keep retelling our story is the best way to gain enough wisdom from it so that we eventually feel gratitude for it. That is when we eventually feel free, that is when it stops bothering us. Then we are ready to let go, for we dont need to, any more, we have made peace with our past.
That is when we realize that we have actually moved on, while our story has stayed where they belong, in the past. Thus, the only way to unlock the prison of the past is by picking up the crystal of wisdom embedded in it. That sets all the past emotions free, so that we are free choose our script for this moment on, to live with the awareness of our past and gratitude for its wisdom that is a clear sign of freedom.
 
Morning Star,

You've helped me to understand how I got to a spot a couple of weeks ago when I was feeling really good. I'm not far from there now, and making progress. I think your observations about telling and retelling our life story are right on the mark. I want badly to move on, but sense that I'm not there yet. But, I am getting there, in large part due to this site and everyone here. Thanks, man.

Andrew,

I love wisdom tempered with humor. We're the same age and I completely understand your point. I think you're right, and if I back off from trying to "make a decision" I think my life will be much easier...maybe even fun again, at least from time-to-time. Thanks so much for the wisdom and the chuckle.

As always my deep appreciation to all. You guys are the best.

Take care,

Peter
 
I think another applicable term here would be ambivalence (excuse the spelling0. Whether it is a sexual orientation issue, a self esteem issue, a career issue, a relationship issue, anything that has any significance in our lives may have two apparently different answers. Heteror vs homo?, I'm good, I 'm horrible? I am a good worker, I will be fired tomorrow? I love this lady, I want to peel my skin off when I am with her?

We have been programmed into black or white. Write or wrong. It has been the only way that we can make sense of the world. Someone mentioned the word "spectrum" above. It is a great word for us to try to recognize. I do not mean the old cliche, "Its not black or white...there are various shades of gray". No I mean the true spectrum between pure white light and the complete absence of light...black. There is an entire rainbow of colors to be realized.

I so struggle with ambivalence. The thought of living in a world full of color terrifies me. Each day I teeter back and forth between all or nothing. I just have to try to tell myself that there are no absolutes. Man may try to create them to answer questions that he cannot possibly comprehend, but there are no absolutes.

Hopefully this helps and thanks for letting me rant. I needed that.

Danny
 
Danny,

Yes, that does help. I'm trying to find answers, and I think I may have been too focused on black and white, gay or straight. I know that I love my wife; I love living with her; I'm emotionally connected to her; and I want to stay with her. Here's the catch. Having repressed another side of me for years, I want to integrate it with the rest of me, not discard it. I don't want to leave her and lead a "gay" life. But I don't want to repress that side of me anymore.

It is complicated and it is all about the technicolor rainbow that you describe. Thanks for the "rant". I think I needed it too.

Peter
 
Peter. I've been sexually confused since the age of 12. I finally decided to try a gay relationship. I wansn't really impressed. At least I tried, but my only point is that just because you might always be wondering if it might be more satisfying or fulfilling, it might also not be for you either.

If you love many things about your wife, and are only considering leaving her because you life MIGHT be better, do you think that's really rational? You must also consider the possibility that you might find the gay lifestyle empty and simply not for you like I did.
 
My "rant" was not to encourage or discourage the pursuit of one life style over the other. I look it as welcoming that part of you as a true part of you. I had to come to grips that my first three know sexuasl partners were men. Starting very young and into my teenage years. There is a certain amount of programming associated with those relationships. There is nothing that can be done about that.

Which ever direction you choose, please remember that the other lifestyle is still a part of you that needs to be cherished. Does that mean that I, as a heterosexual male should have homosexual affairs...no! What is does mean is that by facing, admitting, and embracing the various parts of me and letting all those parts know that I, the now grown up Danny, is driving the bus, they can all join in and start contributing to the joy of my current life instead of posing a constant barrage of "What ifs".

What if I left my wife?
What if I have an affair (either homo or hetero sexual)?
What if I were only more attractive?
What if I were only more desirable?

What if...you fill in the blank.

You say you know you love your wife. if this is true, cherish the fact that you know this. Love what is known and answer the "What If" question with an answer like,"Thanks for your input and I understand why that lifestyle is important to you...but I am driving the bus now and I like this one. Now let's learn how to work togther". It is amazing, they will actually listen sometimes.

This session is worth just what you paid for it...but again, thanks for letting me rant.
Danny
 
Peter and Hauser,

I don't have an answer for this, but here's how I see the problem.

When a boy is growing up that's the time he learns about boundaries, how to relate to people socially, and finally how to relate to others sexually. It happens gradually, and while yeah, sure, growing up is always a drama, I think it is still a fact that what a kid needs is a stable safe and loving environment that allows him to lay down a solid foundation - brick by brick, as it were.

But if the boy is abused, whatever foundation he has is wrecked and efforts to continue building will be hijacked. That wreckage doesn't disappear just because he becomes 18 or 21 and is now an "adult" (another label). He will carry all the crap from abuse into his adulthood and it will affect how he views himself, his sexuality, and sex itself. No wonder we feel so screwed up.

So this brings me back to the questions that you raise at the end of your post above, Hauser. I think a lot of the decision-making in this area is emotional rather than rational, but okay, I see what you mean and I agree. There is a lot of tough thinking to do here, and as I said above, I would be wary of simplistic labels and easy solutions.

What hangs over all this is a hard fact: deciding things like our sexuality and where our future happiness in this area lies requires that we feel secure and safe about who we are and what we need and want out of life. Survivors have a lot of rebuilding and hard work to do before they can say they really are in that secure and safe place that will allow them to make a solid and lasting decision.

Much love,
Larry

PS to Andrew: I wish the "Labels are for soup cans" saying were mine! It's so true!!! But it was Dewey2k who gave us that one.
 
Hauser, Splitting and Larry,

Thanks, guys. You've all given me a lot to think about. I do value a great deal of my current life, and I expect to stay in my marriage. I am trying to find ways to integrate the stuff that I now understand to be true, rather than to deny it. Had a great conversation with a friend this week. He's a gay may in a stable relationship. We've known each other for about 20 years, and spent a lot of time together (because of work...no sexual relationship) until my job changed 15 years ago. We've stayed in touch, but only infrequently. I decided to reach out to him this week, and it was a very rewarding conversation. Like people here, if you chose wisely, you can find people who are receptive, who care, and who will offer love and support. A remarkable experience.

I'm looking forward to Monday's therapy with my wife. I'm going to bring up her "send it away" remark to see what our T thinks about that. (Naturally, she'll reply by asking what I think! I know that's right, but it is annoying, isn't it?) Any way, since she's said that she wants me to get over all this and to take anything having to do with same sex attraction and "send it away" I figured I wouldn't even bring it up this weekend.

I wonder if she'll ask about a movie. There's only one out right now that I'm particularly interested to see, but I'm sure she's not going to want to see it.

Anyway, thanks for everything. Your wisdom, your insight and your support is much appreciated, guys.

Take care,

Peter
 
Peter,
I am so glad to hear that you are making positive headways with your wife in your theraphy. Certainly this thread singular helped me clear lots of my old cobwebs and deep seated truths were shown light of the day.
Ultimately we owe it ourselves to find the truth and to not any one else. It is I can say the ultimate act of self love. I am glad to see you find self love so profoundly.
 
Peter, what great work in this thread. I think this is more of a cheerleading post, but I want to recognize how brave and honest your disclosures and discussions are here. I, too, have battled with my sexual identity. I do not think these questions and issues will go away. They have a nasty way of popping back up the more we push try to push away. However, my experiences and belief is that honesty is the greatest means we have to achieve happiness. yes, these are difficult conversations with your wife and she may wish for you to be a little less honest about your sexuality complexities, but honesty and openness is the greatest tool you have to make both of you happy and do what is right in the relationship. It's better to have uncomfortable conversations now than to find yourself in a really uncomfortable situation later. Good for you for being honest with your self, your wife, and this community. It is wonderful and inspiring.
 
Peter,

There is one part of your post that I wanted to come back to if I may:

I'm looking forward to Monday's therapy with my wife. I'm going to bring up her "send it away" remark to see what our T thinks about that. (Naturally, she'll reply by asking what I think! I know that's right, but it is annoying, isn't it?) Any way, since she's said that she wants me to get over all this and to take anything having to do with same sex attraction and "send it away" I figured I wouldn't even bring it up this weekend.
Click to expand...
It would be useful for both of you to bear in mind that each of you has to feel that you can voice your feelings and emotions honestly. If either of you feels you are being trumped all the time or guilt-tripped into silence, then - simply put - that means that that particular session isn't working out so well.

I know exactly how you feel Peter, and so many times I have difficulty communicating with my wife about abuse issues because I am fearful of where she will take the conversation. I find a lot of what she says to be selfish and hurtful, though I know she doesn't mean it that way. I keep telling myself that she has to have a voice, same as I do. It's out of our conflicting feelings and hurt that some sense of resolution eventually has to come, and for that to happen both of us have to be willing to listen and learn from the other, even if what we hear hurts and seems insensitive.

It's all about solving the problems, not winning the arguments, and that's what makes it so difficult.

Much love,
Larry
 
Morning Star, Josh and Larry,

Guys, thanks so very much.

Morning Star, I'm happy if this thread was of some help to you. Your wisdom and insights have been a big help to me, and I really appreciate you for that.

Josh,I think you're right about honesty. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that my destiny was to become a gay man, but my reaction to my abuse was to turn away from that. I want to find a way to acknowledge that, accept it and integrate it in my life somehow (maybe by having both gay and straight friends). My wife isn't ready for that yet, and may never be. Her "send it away" remark still rings in my ears. I've corresponded more with my (gay) friend from years ago, who is working with me to find a time to get together. He has been enormously supportive and understanding, and has helped me to see how good it is to be able to have honest conversations about stuff that matters with people you care about (just like all of you here). On Saturday morning, he wrote "Your life is just beginning." I can't get that out of my head. I do know, however that honesty in my marriage is essential.

Larry, of course you're right. Your insights are always hit on the mark. Your choice of words "guilt-tripped into silence" really resonated with me, as that's the way I've felt the past few days. My wife just doesn't want to hear about any of this anymore. So far, in our sessions, there's been a good balance of opportunity, if not participation. My wife sometimes holds back. I don't want to "trump" her in any way by bringing up that remark, but I believe it's an important issue and we need to get it on the table. She's still, I think, of the mind that I need to "figure out who I am" then she'll decide if she can live with that. Today's discussion at our therapy session might take us pretty close to that point. We'll see.

Guys, I am indebted to you in a way that I'll never be able to repay. Your support is so important to me that words fail me. I've learned a lot from all of you in this thread. Many, many thanks.

Take care,

Peter
 
Peter, finding the truth about our sexual self a part of finding our self. So, it IS a solitary journey by all means. No one can aid it, let alone understand it, except those on the path as you.

Others might just get confused or flustered at their inability to put 'some sense' into you or as you say, what is the fuss about??

For now, you can say, "I am busy finding my Self and that is the most important task on any life."

All the best,
 
Morning Star,

Your post was so timely. I'm feel like I've been run over. Therapy with my wife sucked. I'm finally connecting on a real level with a few close friends, mostly gay, and having real, honest, genuine conversations with people I respect. I never had the courage to do that before, and it is intensely powerful.

I can't bring myself to tell my wife about it, as I'm sure she'll feel threatened, and I don't want to do that to her, etc. etc. I'm probably just too chicken-shit. Anyway, when asked how she's feeling about how we're doing now, my wife of 33 years just sat there today and said she's (yawn) very busy with her business and planning a wedding for our daughter, so she's just really busy. No time to have feelings about all this.

I'm ready to quit couples counseling. It's not getting us anywhere. Our T thinks I should join a tennis team, where I'll find male acceptance and companionship. I feel threatened around jocks, and I don't expect acceptance or companionship. There's a great solution!

My good friend in Connecticut wrote on Saturday, "Your life is just beginning." And he's a gay man coaching me to keep trying with my wife! Why am I getting such support from him and none from her?

I don't get it. Maybe it's just that I'm pissed, but keeping it in. Prefering to get numb instead. Working on that.

But your advice is good advice, Morning Star. It is my journey, and she clearly doesn't understand it. I need to keep on, keepin' on. And I will. I'm just having a real bad night. I'll get through it. Sometimes this really, really sucks. Tomorrow will be better. It has to be.

Peter
 
Well, your post couldn't have been more timely; as I just finished telephonic conversation with my dad, I called him up to connect with after many years and he ended up using this opportunity to brag about himself, as I gathered he was sitting with a friend whom he wanted to impress. Later he proceeds to giving me some life advice and about my career etc. So it was disgusting as he had no real concern about me, just needed to elevate his self esteem, and I on the other hand allowed him; I could not bring myself to tell him to just shut up.

I was hoping he would say good things about me finally, and there in lies the paradox, my dependency makes me vulnerable to abuse.

Further, having been rejected by my father, and men later in life who represent him, I turn to my mother or women later in my life who represented her, for emotional approval; but that also made me vulnerable for abuse of power as I was giving them the power to emotionally reject me. We get hurt when they dont approval for our actions and see them as put-downs or when they are too busy sorting out their own lives we see it as apathy.

Dependency also leaves us open for emotional manipulation, many wives use this power wonderfully. Our own emotional dependency is what that makes us the enabler in emotional control. We allow it and that is the key word. As severe control stems from severe dependency as happens during childhood, we are totally dependent on our parents for our emotional well being, this makes us vulnerable to them and we cannot say no!
Now I am willing to free myself from this dependency as I am learning to nourish my self, physically as well emotional, and above all spiritually. So the only way out I see of this quagmire, is not fighting but reconnection with our own power, our emotional self.

Unless men are willing to feel and makes themselves emotionally available or vulnerable, gay men are the closest approximations available, for the time being, amongst men to a womans emotional touch, her compassion to listen and her willingness to feel, but yes without her controlling or sMothering. Have you noticed how after a while in a relationship, a woman starts acting like your mother?
 
In our bodys energy system, our sexual and emotional self have the same energy point, the Hara. That is why sexual arousal and emotional arousal are so closely linked.
When sexual abuse occurs during childhood, a certain mix up is liable to happen as our emotional being is not so developed, or our ability to detect the difference between the an emotional uplifting and a sexual arousal, for they both feel the same to a child.
But when we grow with this confused framework, further mix-up is liable to happen, as we might get confused between conflicting triggers; unless we are willing to tune into our emotional being more intensely, through our emotions. Giving up our emotional dependency on others is the first step in the right direction towards emotional freedom.

Reconnecting with our emotional self means we fine tune our sensory perceptions and learn to decipher between closely-linked emotions. For example when we feel angry we seldom know where is it coming from; a replay of old hurt, disrespect, a new hurt or simply a new way of perceiving things. This way, gradually we fine tune ourselves enough to learn to differentiate between two very close signals, love and sex. That ends our sexual confusion.
 
Morning Star,

Good morning. Thanks very much for your post. I'm sorry to hear about the call with your father. Don't know why people behave that way, but you're probably right that he was trying to impress. I sought but never received the interest, attention and approval of my father. It was bad that I never got it, but worse that when I was grown and out of the house,he finally found the "son he never had" (my words not his, but he never had to say it, it was pretty clear) in a neighbor's son and wouldn't shut up about him whenever I came to visit. So, I can relate. And I'm sorry that you went through that.

Today is a better day. I slept pretty well, but I think that's because I've come to realize that what I'm working on is, indeed, my journey. Thanks, in large part, to you. Asking my wife to be part of it makes no sense. We started couples therapy because I wanted to find a way to be together at the end of this. That takes some active particpation on her part, and the participation has not been happening. It was never so clear to me as yesterday when she was asked how she felt about all of this and her answer was basically that she was too busy to give it much thought.

That hit pretty hard, felt strongly like rejection and her not caring. Maybe she's just protecting herself. Clearly her's is a wait-and-see approach. I've come to accept that as the way it is and the way it will be, and that it may very well be the right way. The journey is mine. She's welcome to come along, but whether she does or not, it's for me to do, and it's something I must do. I think it's time to suspend (or maybe end) couples therapy.

I'm much more centered today, more clear about what I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. I see my T at 3:00, and expect an interesting session.

Many, many thanks for your wisdom, advice and support. I've learned so much from you, and you've helped me in remarkable ways. I appreciate everything you've done for me, and wish that somehow I could help you when you are feeling pain. Sounds like you understand it all very well, but that doesn't diminish the pain, does it? I hope today's a better day for you.

Peter
 
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