Abuse Begets Further Abuse
concerned_husky
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Abuse Begets Further Abuse
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AlexBoyd
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Husky,
Making the connection or cracking the code between your abuse and the destructive nature of your post-abuse relationships is a major accomplishment. Congrats on that.
On an another note, I want to zone in on the last section of your post where you write about your personality. You are, without a doubt, one of the most empathetic/compassionate people I have known...and I do feel like I know you. I can't even begin to explain how you have helped me.
Be compassionate with yourself too.
Alex
Making the connection or cracking the code between your abuse and the destructive nature of your post-abuse relationships is a major accomplishment. Congrats on that.
On an another note, I want to zone in on the last section of your post where you write about your personality. You are, without a doubt, one of the most empathetic/compassionate people I have known...and I do feel like I know you. I can't even begin to explain how you have helped me.
Be compassionate with yourself too.
Alex
Hi Husky,
I can relate!... having been abused by my own father, who would put heaps and heaps of self-pity on himself over the course of my entire adult life (until he was finally confronted and now lives in exile for lying about the abuse) I always felt sorry for him, but how backwards is that? He destroyed my innocence and set me on a path of self destruction for what he did to me. Shouldn't he be the one feeling empathy towards me? But I know now after getting old and getting help, I can see clearly that this was his manipulation tactic and a way for him to try and control the situation in hopes that he would never be confronted with what he did because "poor him, he's had it so hard"...
I can relate to having several male friendships of that same type of person. And guess what? It's all about them, and if you really step back and consider how good of a friend they are, would they go through the same effort to help you in a jam, would they? You can see who you are really dealing with. Another tell tale sign is how they react after the relationship is severed. If they lash out in extreme behavior and in your case stalk, it's very well evident how that relationship was held together.
BTW i just read a quote on vday that Einstein said: Where there is love there is no imposition. So think about that in our relationships. Is someone imposing on us?
As far as your last section and what Alex also wrote about, my belief is that your personality of being empathetic and compassionate will not change regardless. That's who you are, if anything it's being hindered and less authentic when you're holding onto the weeds that contaminated it.
Good luck!
I can relate!... having been abused by my own father, who would put heaps and heaps of self-pity on himself over the course of my entire adult life (until he was finally confronted and now lives in exile for lying about the abuse) I always felt sorry for him, but how backwards is that? He destroyed my innocence and set me on a path of self destruction for what he did to me. Shouldn't he be the one feeling empathy towards me? But I know now after getting old and getting help, I can see clearly that this was his manipulation tactic and a way for him to try and control the situation in hopes that he would never be confronted with what he did because "poor him, he's had it so hard"...
I can relate to having several male friendships of that same type of person. And guess what? It's all about them, and if you really step back and consider how good of a friend they are, would they go through the same effort to help you in a jam, would they? You can see who you are really dealing with. Another tell tale sign is how they react after the relationship is severed. If they lash out in extreme behavior and in your case stalk, it's very well evident how that relationship was held together.
BTW i just read a quote on vday that Einstein said: Where there is love there is no imposition. So think about that in our relationships. Is someone imposing on us?
As far as your last section and what Alex also wrote about, my belief is that your personality of being empathetic and compassionate will not change regardless. That's who you are, if anything it's being hindered and less authentic when you're holding onto the weeds that contaminated it.
Good luck!
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I'm kind of like this, but for slightly different reasons.
For a long time I've wondered if I gave off some kind of victim signal, like if it was the way I looked, the way I act or speak. I'm pretty short, I look younger than I am and I'm always very anxious in social situations, so I probably don't come across like I'm very confident. But people seem to pick up on it online too, so there's obviously something in the way I write as well.
I think you are right that there are good sides to this kind of personality. You do come across as very empathetic and caring. I see that as a good thing. I imagine that the people who actually like me probably like me for similar reasons. But again I think you are right, there must be a way to balance things so you still get to be you, but in a way that doesn't attract people who are going to end up as crazy stalkers. I don't know how, but being able to read people seems a good start. Having boundaries and not being pushed into breaking them? I try to avoid things where I think people might hurt me, which maybe isn't the best answer, but still, it's better than being hurt. Things like having self-confidence and self-esteem would help, but it's not like those are easy to find. I think it's something that will take a lot of work but will ultimately be worth it. I'm sorry I don't have anything more helpful to add.
For a long time I've wondered if I gave off some kind of victim signal, like if it was the way I looked, the way I act or speak. I'm pretty short, I look younger than I am and I'm always very anxious in social situations, so I probably don't come across like I'm very confident. But people seem to pick up on it online too, so there's obviously something in the way I write as well.
I think you are right that there are good sides to this kind of personality. You do come across as very empathetic and caring. I see that as a good thing. I imagine that the people who actually like me probably like me for similar reasons. But again I think you are right, there must be a way to balance things so you still get to be you, but in a way that doesn't attract people who are going to end up as crazy stalkers. I don't know how, but being able to read people seems a good start. Having boundaries and not being pushed into breaking them? I try to avoid things where I think people might hurt me, which maybe isn't the best answer, but still, it's better than being hurt. Things like having self-confidence and self-esteem would help, but it's not like those are easy to find. I think it's something that will take a lot of work but will ultimately be worth it. I'm sorry I don't have anything more helpful to add.
Hi Husky,
You're describing my mother. She fits the description of Narcissistic Personality, and never saw anyone but herself. She conditioned me with fear, manipulation, deceit, and physical and psychological abuse to live in favor of the other at any cost to myself. I have lived a life of being unable to express any personal, passionate aspects of myself.
In my 60's I'm finally shedding her influences, but it is slow work because the conditioning occurred so young. I got a reference from FB on Porges Polyvegal Theory that answered some questions for me. It explains how the early trauma gets lodged in the brain stem, or Reptilian brain (instinct) and is not very accessible by higher level brain functions. I may not be expressing this very well, but what it did for me was help me understand why learning my way through this has been so very slow and difficult.
Sending you love and support,
Don
You're describing my mother. She fits the description of Narcissistic Personality, and never saw anyone but herself. She conditioned me with fear, manipulation, deceit, and physical and psychological abuse to live in favor of the other at any cost to myself. I have lived a life of being unable to express any personal, passionate aspects of myself.
In my 60's I'm finally shedding her influences, but it is slow work because the conditioning occurred so young. I got a reference from FB on Porges Polyvegal Theory that answered some questions for me. It explains how the early trauma gets lodged in the brain stem, or Reptilian brain (instinct) and is not very accessible by higher level brain functions. I may not be expressing this very well, but what it did for me was help me understand why learning my way through this has been so very slow and difficult.
Sending you love and support,
Don
Congratulations on cracking the code. For me you really nailed the description of the emotional abuse that often intertwines with more overtly sexual abuse - both violations of intimacy. For a long time I was most attracted to the dark crazy ones, got my insides all twisted up and overwhelmed by being too connected too soon. Like you said, I couldn't see the red flags, or I did and they were sexy.
For me, cracking part of the code was discovering the ways I would automatically reach out with my feelings to join theirs. Now I keep my empathy and feeling senses to myself, behind a solid boundary. It's not impenetrable, but there's no longer the immediate impetus to merge with crazy. I do get accused of being aloof or distant. However I'd rather be a little too boundaried and able to relax them as I learn that someone is trustworthy, rather than being too open and getting all twisted up, again.
Thanks a lot for sharing your revelation and progress.
For me, cracking part of the code was discovering the ways I would automatically reach out with my feelings to join theirs. Now I keep my empathy and feeling senses to myself, behind a solid boundary. It's not impenetrable, but there's no longer the immediate impetus to merge with crazy. I do get accused of being aloof or distant. However I'd rather be a little too boundaried and able to relax them as I learn that someone is trustworthy, rather than being too open and getting all twisted up, again.
Thanks a lot for sharing your revelation and progress.
Don and I must have shared mothers. She was my longest-running perp and she also had an extremely narcissistic, judgmental, bigoted outlook on life. Not only did she abuse me sexually but she also abused me physically, emotionally, and verbally. She was still hitting me when I was in graduate school in my 20s. Always it was about her. "You don't love me, you don't love me enough, etc." seemed like her mantra. In some sort of sick way it bound me to her, sort of like watching a train wreck. I could not turn away.
It was not until I was in my mid to late twenties that I finally was able to deal with her psychological abuse. I simply stopped dealing with her. I told her, after having every single one of my girlfriends rejected by her as "not good enough," that she would not meet anymore of the women I dated and the next one she would meet would be my fiance. And I told her if she mistreated or judged my fiance, she (my mother) would never meet her grandchildren. Standing up to her and telling her, in effect, to fuck off, was a big moment for me. I had never done it before.
But then, perhaps six months later, my father stepped in and tried to convince me to reverse course because my mother was "so hurt." It would not be the first time he would put others, or himself, in front of my recovery. Fortunately I stood my ground.
In the end, my mother never met any of her grandchildren as she died a couple months before my oldest daughter was born. In retrospect I am glad she never met any of her grandchildren. While she no doubt would have loved them and tried to spoil them, I would never trust her to be with them. She hurt me too often.
What ties this all together was that she was an alcoholic and drug addict. Like many children who were subjected to various types of abuse and who lived with addicts, I became a people pleaser. I still am; I think I care more about others than I do about myself. So this insane desire I had to please her also bound me as her captive.
Detangling myself from her web has been a long process that I am not finished with yet. I am still angry with her and the resentment that built up over time still burns like an ember. In another thread someone posed the question of whether we could ever forgive our abuser(s). My answer was that I thought, for our own sake, we should, but that I was incapable of doing it at this time.
Maybe finally forgiving her and the other perps in my life would bring me some peace. I'm just still so damned angry about what they did to me and how it truly screwed my life up for me.
It was not until I was in my mid to late twenties that I finally was able to deal with her psychological abuse. I simply stopped dealing with her. I told her, after having every single one of my girlfriends rejected by her as "not good enough," that she would not meet anymore of the women I dated and the next one she would meet would be my fiance. And I told her if she mistreated or judged my fiance, she (my mother) would never meet her grandchildren. Standing up to her and telling her, in effect, to fuck off, was a big moment for me. I had never done it before.
But then, perhaps six months later, my father stepped in and tried to convince me to reverse course because my mother was "so hurt." It would not be the first time he would put others, or himself, in front of my recovery. Fortunately I stood my ground.
In the end, my mother never met any of her grandchildren as she died a couple months before my oldest daughter was born. In retrospect I am glad she never met any of her grandchildren. While she no doubt would have loved them and tried to spoil them, I would never trust her to be with them. She hurt me too often.
What ties this all together was that she was an alcoholic and drug addict. Like many children who were subjected to various types of abuse and who lived with addicts, I became a people pleaser. I still am; I think I care more about others than I do about myself. So this insane desire I had to please her also bound me as her captive.
Detangling myself from her web has been a long process that I am not finished with yet. I am still angry with her and the resentment that built up over time still burns like an ember. In another thread someone posed the question of whether we could ever forgive our abuser(s). My answer was that I thought, for our own sake, we should, but that I was incapable of doing it at this time.
Maybe finally forgiving her and the other perps in my life would bring me some peace. I'm just still so damned angry about what they did to me and how it truly screwed my life up for me.
bey
Registrant
I don't know why I have had abusive relationships as an adult. Or put myself in abusive situations. I guess part of it for me is that it feels familiar I suppose. In regular life I feel like I am floundering, trying to be someone I am not, trying to figure out normal relationships. Its easy to be in a controlling or abusive relationship, its easy to be the person I always was.
I guess I seek out relationships that hurt me, for lots of reasons. I think I see the red flags of a shitty, abusive person and I go for it.
As for the being empathetic and compassionate - I guess it could cause you to get burned now and then, but I hope you decide its worth the risk. Its a good way to be.
I guess I seek out relationships that hurt me, for lots of reasons. I think I see the red flags of a shitty, abusive person and I go for it.
As for the being empathetic and compassionate - I guess it could cause you to get burned now and then, but I hope you decide its worth the risk. Its a good way to be.
focusedbody
Registrant
concerned_husky said:
Husky:
Understanding another person is in the long run, what provides the best sense of safety for me. The more I can see them for who they are, the more I know what to do and what to say.
Empathy helps this process of seeing others. What you may be anxious about is when the empathy moves into an area of fusing with another person. That is a state in which you cannot see who they are. I would argue then that empathy is actually less of an issue than perceiving what is standing in the way of sensing the possible manipulation.
I am so glad that you are asking this question at this age. I could never really ask it succinctly until much later, but now looking back, I remember and recognize experiencing the pattern you mention and scratching my head about it all the time.
What eventually comes up when I consider the finer points of manipulation are feelings of guilt and shame. I suppose I might throw in low self-esteem as well, but that's really on the surface of the shame. As others have pointed out, being relied upon to take away and further obscure someone else's lack of self-awareness perpetuates the destructive interaction.
Take your time. You will find your way. Cracking the code is just the beginning. Listening to how it is communicated is the next.
FB
Serious Dave
Registrant
Husky,
To my knowledge, I wasn't emotionally abused or conditioned specifically to pity my abusers, and I don't think I did. However, I do have a bad tendency to be a compulsive caretaker with everyone who is needy. And, I agree, "sick" people can smell us a mile away. I think there are two reasons for caretaking, one proposed by my T and one I've learned on my own.
1) My T says I care-take because I was not taken care of (helped) while the abuse was going on. Not sure I get his drift entirely - a bit lean on substance.
2) I like my explanation better. Caretaking is a form of control. I cannot stand to be around people who are upset, except at funerals, etc. where it's expected.
I use caretaking to manage my anxiety because of someone else's emotional problems. If someone is crying or helpless or hopeless or struggling and upset, I am compelled to intervene to stop the flow of emotion (codependency). I feel that if it continues, the situation or even I myself may get out of control (anxiety). I also see them as incapable of helping themselves (narcissism), so I must do it for them (more narcissism). Then I resent the person for not being grateful (even more narcissism) that I butted into something they should have done for themselves.
There is a lot of good info on caretaking in the book, Codependent No More, by Melody Beattie. There is also a list of other characteristics of codependency. I clearly have 75% of them. I am interested to know if others wound up as codependent as I am.
Dave
To my knowledge, I wasn't emotionally abused or conditioned specifically to pity my abusers, and I don't think I did. However, I do have a bad tendency to be a compulsive caretaker with everyone who is needy. And, I agree, "sick" people can smell us a mile away. I think there are two reasons for caretaking, one proposed by my T and one I've learned on my own.
1) My T says I care-take because I was not taken care of (helped) while the abuse was going on. Not sure I get his drift entirely - a bit lean on substance.
2) I like my explanation better. Caretaking is a form of control. I cannot stand to be around people who are upset, except at funerals, etc. where it's expected.
I use caretaking to manage my anxiety because of someone else's emotional problems. If someone is crying or helpless or hopeless or struggling and upset, I am compelled to intervene to stop the flow of emotion (codependency). I feel that if it continues, the situation or even I myself may get out of control (anxiety). I also see them as incapable of helping themselves (narcissism), so I must do it for them (more narcissism). Then I resent the person for not being grateful (even more narcissism) that I butted into something they should have done for themselves.
There is a lot of good info on caretaking in the book, Codependent No More, by Melody Beattie. There is also a list of other characteristics of codependency. I clearly have 75% of them. I am interested to know if others wound up as codependent as I am.
Dave
SmartShadow
Registrant
Husky, good question indeed.
concerned_husky said:
Husky,
My emotional abuse was from the kids I went to school with and my step father - between them I had no self esteem and felt completely alienated from most everyone. I was worthless to him and someone to be avoided or made fun of at school. Did I care about any of them... uh no, but I did want them to like me. Enough so that I let him do whatever he wanted with me...
While I didn't experience what you are talking about I certainly follow what you are saying and it makes sense. I think this kind of discovery is what recovery is all about.
I also want to say that while you may give off signals somehow don't go throwing the baby out with the bath water. Ever since I have known you here all I see are a whole lot of good qualities that you should be proud of.
My emotional abuse was from the kids I went to school with and my step father - between them I had no self esteem and felt completely alienated from most everyone. I was worthless to him and someone to be avoided or made fun of at school. Did I care about any of them... uh no, but I did want them to like me. Enough so that I let him do whatever he wanted with me...
While I didn't experience what you are talking about I certainly follow what you are saying and it makes sense. I think this kind of discovery is what recovery is all about.
I also want to say that while you may give off signals somehow don't go throwing the baby out with the bath water. Ever since I have known you here all I see are a whole lot of good qualities that you should be proud of.
SayItRight
Registrant
Husky,
I haven't been on here in a while and was hoping to see how things are going so I'm glad I caught this post.
Your perp may have been able to tap into and manipulate your compassion and empathy for some time or even for a long time, but I don't think your compassion and empathy are simply a byproduct or result of your being abused. I think rather that it is part of yourself that you've fought to hold onto despite the abuse. There is power in it, not reaction, in my opinion.
I venture this opinion because, as others here have stated, I have repeatedly benefitted from your compassion and empathy time and time again in significant ways and at significant times. Your empathy and compassion are a force of nature, in my experience. What's more, your own personally-chosen generosity allows you to share it.
Those other relationships that mirrored the abuse? I'd say: also not an "empathy" issue. They sound like an abuse-issue, like an issue of learning that others are not as well-intentioned as you are. It's good you're gaining the ability to see where people might really be coming from but I'm glad you can retain your good intentions nonetheless.
It's inspring to read about your breakthough in making the connection between the abuse you suffered and some bad patterns. As always, your honesty is inspiring too.
I haven't been on here in a while and was hoping to see how things are going so I'm glad I caught this post.
Your perp may have been able to tap into and manipulate your compassion and empathy for some time or even for a long time, but I don't think your compassion and empathy are simply a byproduct or result of your being abused. I think rather that it is part of yourself that you've fought to hold onto despite the abuse. There is power in it, not reaction, in my opinion.
I venture this opinion because, as others here have stated, I have repeatedly benefitted from your compassion and empathy time and time again in significant ways and at significant times. Your empathy and compassion are a force of nature, in my experience. What's more, your own personally-chosen generosity allows you to share it.
Those other relationships that mirrored the abuse? I'd say: also not an "empathy" issue. They sound like an abuse-issue, like an issue of learning that others are not as well-intentioned as you are. It's good you're gaining the ability to see where people might really be coming from but I'm glad you can retain your good intentions nonetheless.
It's inspring to read about your breakthough in making the connection between the abuse you suffered and some bad patterns. As always, your honesty is inspiring too.
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