A Question No One Wants To Answer

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A Question No One Wants To Answer

Okay, a few people have been pointing out that I am a jerk. I don't mind hearing criticism like that. It's just that I DO MIND hearing criticism like that when I am feeling suicidal. A word of advice: that's not a great time to dump on people, okay? And yes, I'm talking to my doctor, my therapist, and soon will have an in-depth psychiatric evaluation to help with the depression, suicidal feelings, etc. So I'm doing what needs to be done and talking about those feelings here is not intended as a threat. Okay?

I just want to ask a question. And maybe this will help a few people see things from my perspective. I hope so anyhow.

Suppose you could go back in time and be given a choice. Well, if you were given a choice, I am sure that you would wish the SA never happened, right?

But supposed you had no choice about that. Suppose the only choice you had was whether or not you would remember what happened. Like you could either:

1) Go through life with those awful memories playing over and over again in your head. And it would hurt very deeply but at least you would know what happened and someday be able to get help. But the pain would be there. The memories would be there. And you couldn't make them go away.

OR

2) Would you rather you don't remember a thing, except maybe just have a tiny feeling something bad happened. Maybe just remember a little bit. But mostly think nothing really bad happened in your childhood. And you would make a normal life for yourself based on that. Plus you would have all these happy memories and just forget the rest until, say, you turned 50 years old. Then your whole world would be turned upside down. That normal childhood would seem like anything but normal. And every day, more and more twisted events would come back to you. So that it was all so overwhelming you just wanted to scream your head off.

It's a lousy choic isn't it? There's no right answer is there? But people wonder why I get so emotional sometmes. Why all that emotion comes through in my posts. Well, that's why.

I am seeing all this stuff for the first time and I feel like screaming my head off. I am 50 years old. The world as I know it has forever changed. My partner of 21 years didn't see this coming. I didn't see this coming.

So if I'm a jerk, that's why I'm a jerk. And please...I am not saying my pain is greater than anyone else's. Some guys here have lived through truly horrendous things. I'm not trying to compare my pain to anyone's. I'm just saying, if you could do it all again, which would you choose? To block it all out for 50 years and have it dumped on you all at once? Or to live with it for those 50 years, day in and day out?

Maybe that's a stupid question. I don't know.

Take care, guys!

Jasper
 
Jasper

For what I have today, my wife, my step-daughetrs and four step grandchildren I would have to go (quite willingly) with:

1) Go through life with those awful memories playing over and over again in your head. And it would hurt very deeply but at least you would know what happened and someday be able to get help. But the pain would be there. The memories would be there. And you couldn't make them go away.

"Go through life with those awful memories playing over and over again in your head", yes but I have worked hard at dealing with those triggers, flashbacks call them what you will and in my case it has become slightly easier".

I suspect that I will suffer from new memories emerging for the rest of my days, but I can now deal with them, although I do have off days, those off days will always be there as I was daignosed with clinical depression in 1994 and PTSD in 2000.

What I am trying to say is this, yes there is still a load of crap that I have to deal with but those good things like my grandchildren and my married family wipe out the shit things in an instant.

The most beautiful word I hear today is "Grandad" and thats enough for me.

Hang in there, PM if you wish.

No one that comes to MS is a jerk, they may think they are but empathy tells me different.

Cheers

Kirk
"Instigate change, as it appears it wont come naturally in our cause. Sometimes it needs a little forcing".
 
************ Possible Triggers *******************
Mornin' Jasper - You're right, none of us have a choice, it goes the way it goes. And I can't choose between #1 or #2. For me it was a combination of both. I always knew what had happened. Physically abused at home from a very young age, raped at nine by a swim coach who continued the abuse for a year, admitted to a psychiatric hospital for three months (not a good place for a sane 10-11 year old), then off to a residential school where a teacher sexually abused me for two years. I was aware of it all with the exception of a few memories of specific events that I could not conjure.

I never forgot what happened, lived a pretty screwed up life, bad memories that I would put away with drugs and booze. Sexually acting out with older men from early teens on, suicidal thoughts....but I just figured that's the way it goes and never really knew the extent of what I was living or that I needed help so badly.

Then about 18 months ago it all came crashing down. Even though I had the memories, I hadn't lived the emotions, now they were here and I didn't know what to do with them.

So I've lived both sides of your scenario. I think it works differently for us all, while at the same time everything seems so similar.

I know this is not an answer to your questions, but I thought I'd share how it worked for me.

Hope you're having a good day today - John
 
Jasper, You have stated more than once that you are feeling suicidal. I think it might be a good idea to admit yourself to hospital.


I'm talking to my doctor, my therapist, and soon will have an in-depth psychiatric evaluation to help with the depression, suicidal feelings, etc.
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Obviously talking to your doctor and therapist is not enough. And feeling the way you do, the results of a psychiatric evaluation are pretty much redundant, suicidal feelings, in many jurisdictions are grounds for involuntary admission. Go to hospital and get admitted.
You need to be in a safe place Jasper.
Peace, Andrew
 
I agree with Andrew, Jasper. It's not a bad thing to take some time in a hospital. I've done it twice. It helps you get your feet back under you and backed away from the crazy world out there for a while.

I consider your first statement pretty serious.
I DO MIND hearing criticism like that when I am feeling suicidal.
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Call the help line. Walk in to a hospital. Do something today. That is just the sort of talk an entire thread was dedictated to because we lost one of our own. Don't mess around, Jasper. Get help.

[Edited because I messed up my "UBB Codes". That's all.]
 
Jasper,

I have read the responses to your question and like the others I doubt that I have the kind of answer you want. But here goes.

I guess my answer is that none of this is about choices, Little Bro. None of us asked to get abused. Nobody wanted the rape and all the other crap. None of us would ever be able to choose between living in hell for decades or suddenly having our world crash down around us as we suddenly start to remember. It all sucks, period.

If it isn't about answers, then what's going on? Jasper I think in the first instance it's about coping, and then eventually recovering. You have been retrieving a lot of memories, and some really awful ones at that. I don't think there is much you can do about that except move forward and face the truth in all its awful detail. To do otherwise is denial, bro, and believe me, you do NOT want to go down that road. Been there. Done that.

But at the same time, all those awful things that happened in the past are not the sum total of your life. You are not responsible for them; they do not reflect upon you! They are somebody else's responsibility, not yours. However terrible the memories are, and no matter how many more there are yet undiscovered, you are still Jasper. A kind, caring and compassionate man with a razor-sharp sense of humor. You have someone to love in your life, and a history of decades with that person through good times and bad. You have a crowd of friends here who care about you. I don't think I would like to go into your basement right now with all those peeps getting bigger and bigger, but that's another thread. :)

One way I cope with really bad feelings is to remind myself that the feelings are just my way of trying to cope. Sometimes my mechanisms break down and at those times I feel really bad about myself. But those feelings are not the reality. The reality is that I have a lot to carry on for, same as you do.

It may be that you need to take some time and get systematic and concentrated help with dealing with these feelings Jasper. If I have a cut and it gets infected and won't do away, then I seek help before it gets worse. Your situation is the same I think.

Talk to Andy, talk to your friends, and especially talk to your therapist and take advice on this. If it turns out that you need the help that a stay in hospital can provide, then accept it. That is what places like this are there for bro. There is no shame in needing help and taking it, it doesn't mean you are regressing in any way.

We all want the very best for you Jasper. Nothing less.

Lots of love,
Larry
 
Andrew:

That's not at all helpful.

ForeverFighting:

I think you need to read my entire post.

If every guy here was hospitalized because of suicidal feelings, I think only you two and maybe a couple of mods would be here to post. Having suicidal feelings doesn't kill one. Acting on them, does.

But I get your point...I get your message....you don't want me around? Fine.

My partner is unhappy with me because I post here too much. You two are unhappy with me because I guess only happy people are supposed to post here.

This place was a lifeline to me and now that's been cut. But don't worry...I know where to call for help if I need it.

For the record, it's 1-800-273-TALK

They are there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

But whatever you do...don't talk about those feelings around here. People would rather pay tribute to you after you're gone than deal with you when you're alive. And I'm not talking about me here, folks. I am talking about MedicB4.

Sorry...there's no right way to do this except to say...

That's all folks!

Jasper

P.S. See you in the old age home!
 
Jasper,

Andrew and FF are just concerned about you, as am I. No one is saying you should not discuss these issues, and no one is saying you should not be here. You are one of the group, same as anyone else.

It is so difficult to read exactly how someone is feeling in these posts, Jasper. It is printed text only and we are all dealing with major issues, and at the same time we are all just "guys on the road", as I have said elsewhere.

Lots of love,
Larry
 
Jasper - Take a deep breath and keep this in perspective. Maybe the posts have been misconstrued by you, certainly some of yours have been misconstrues by others, it happens. Or maybe the are sincere overreactions to your posts in which you mention suicide. Only Andrew and FF know for sure.

Either way, if you step back and look at the whole picture, I think you'll see that your presence here is more appreciated than not. I think you might also consider what Andy has to say, you don't want this place and your involvement in it to get in the way of your relationship. Like anything else in this world, we can get too much of a good thing. Maybe setting aside an hour a day to read and post might be a good diet of MS.org for a while.

Keeping things in perspective can be difficult, especially when our heads are spinning, but you can do it. I sense a level-headedness about you....John
 
Jasper.

I know exactly how you feel. I sometimes feel a jerk in here. I do at the momet through my post which has the title of "What are presidents Bushes views on CSA?". It may seem to some that I am a jerk for asking that question but it is a serious question for the simple reason being that our "worldly wise" know it all Prime Minister Tony Blair seems to listen more to President Bush than he does to the people that put him in for a record breaking third term. Maybe George can have a word in his ear. I am seriously thinking of writing to President Bush hoping that our press may pick up on it. But that feeling of being a jerk is my insecurity with maybe a little paranoia creeping in. Just one other thing jerks dont usually talk out loud in public about things that are bothering them.

Basically I dont give a toss what people think of me I am here for me. Nobody can crack this thing except me but I can receive guidance from those that have a longer recovery than me, as I am here for anyone, including new members.

Regards

Kirk
"Instigate change, as it appears it wont come naturally in our cause. Sometimes it needs a little forcing".
 
I am glad I can remember! I would rather live with the pain, and all the hurting. It makes me stronger!

If I could go back in time and change time, would I? If Dr Who and his PhoneBox came would I get in it? No, I wouldn't - The SA has made me who I am today, and if that event never happened I would be some one complty different, you cant change the pass with out changing the now! the Butterfly effect!!

Elliot!
 
Jasper,

The first thing I want to say is that I value you here. Sometimes you say things that I do not agree with but that is not what is important. What is important is that you are working on your recovery and trying to help others at the same time.

Now about your post. I would like to answer it in two parts.

First, I have also blocked out my abuse for the last 20 years. I am 26 and the abuse happened when I was 5 or 6. You talk about a choice. I think that is unfair. No one here had the choice. We coped with our situation the best way we new how. For some that was forgetting what happened (you and me) and for others there are 1000 different coping strategies. to say we had a choice or that one is better than the other I think is counter productive. IMHO it is better to accept what ever coping mechanism we chose and to work through it to change it and make our lives whole.

The second thing I would like to address in your post is the following:
. I don't mind hearing criticism like that. It's just that I DO MIND hearing criticism like that when I am feeling suicidal. A word of advice: that's not a great time to dump on people, okay? And yes, I'm talking to my doctor, my therapist, and soon will have an in-depth psychiatric evaluation to help with the depression, suicidal feelings, etc. So I'm doing what needs to be done and talking about those feelings here is not intended as a threat. Okay?
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In this quote I hear lots of pain and unease. That is okay and we are here to help you as best we can. There is also something there that is not as positive. You tell people it is okay to criticize you when you are not feeling suicidal but to not criticize you when you are. By this logic then you should not post outside of your direct feelings and emotions when you are feeling like this. To post on other topics where people are trying to discuss a topic that might be triggering or difficult for others and then tell people to not disagree with you because of your mind set is unfair to the other people who are using that post. They are opening into a frank and open discussion and your limiting them to agreeing with you is counter productive. I am not saying that you should not take part in the topics. But if you are feeling fragile to the point of self hurt then refraining from putting other people in this situation would be a wise choice.

This goes for everyone else too. We are here to help each other. The best way to do that is by responding to posts when we have the spirit of that post in our minds.

This is by no way a rebuke against you or anyone else. This is my opinion and no one else. I maybe wrong on this and if that is the case I accept that.


I think I have said enough.

Jonathan
 
Wow. Where did that come from, Jasper? You said you were suicidal, so two guys here strongly encourage help. So we hate you and want you to leave. Wow. What in the world would make you think, from our posts, that we're unhappy with you?

I didn't reply to Medic's post when he talked about suicide, so I forced myself to reply to yours. If I'm a bad guy for that, so be it. Your response to what I am required to say, by your own lengthy posts about medic, is just bizaar. My brother-in-law talked suicide, and I know from my own experience that we don't mess around with that. I sat with him and talked with him, and I took him to the ER. I would do the same for you. And yes, whether you liked it or not.
 
Jasper,

I think your rhetorical question is one that no one CAN answer. As you say, we don't have the choice of how our brain deals with this, whether it is constant thoughts and memories, or blocking it out for years, or, as Jonathan says, a combination of both. We all have dealt in our own way and do not have experience with the other, so how could we answer? I have a nice little case of DID, and usually still spent part of every day as 'not myself'. My girlfriend gets to deal with a four-year old me, a six-year old me, a 13-year old me. Wrecks hell on the sex life.

I will admit in the open that I am someone who has recently sent you a PM criticizing your style of posting at times. I never called you a jerk, and I attempted to remain civil and somewhat constructive in the comments I made to you, of what *I* see. I'm not God, you can take what I say and throw it in the trash if you want, hell, a lot of people do. But I will say that if the 'enthusiastic to the point of being bombastic' and 'seemingly pushing a personal agenda' comments, tempered with 'I think you have a genuinely good heart and good nature' are equivalent to calling you a 'jerk', my apologies.

You say you do not want this criticism when you are suicidal. But Jasper, how are those of us here to know when that is? Every member here has been suicidal at some point, and possibly will be again. I have felt it, for brief moments, even as recently as last month, and I am generally quite strong in that respect. There could be 1 person posting/reading here right now who feels that way. There could be 100. We don't know. And yes, you do wish to be able to speak of it or announce it here. It is just my opinion, and again, I am no one but another member here, that such discussion is to upsetting to a more majority group of members here then it's not. That is my concern. This site has acted before on the behalf to protect the safety and integrity of the site, not the individual.

I am not in the state of mind you are right now, obviously, But I do not think Andrew and Michael (Foreverfighting) were at all negative to you. They both posted concerns of you and your safety. And truly, why wait? If someone is truly feeling suicidal, wouldn't it be best to take care of said feelings right away, so to move past it? I think that is what they were suggesting. Because as Andrew said, it just does not appear that the other measures you are taking are helping you. I took that as a phrase of concern, not of condemnment.

The phrase you posted about 'I guess only happy people are allowed to post here', I am sorry, I am sure that was said out of anger, but it strikes me as ludicrous. I realize you are in your own pain here. But when you are in a better frame of mental reference, perhaps you could go through all the posts here,just the front page of the Male Survivor forum, and see just how 'happy' some of these people appear to be. And also, there is a thread on the member side right now, about a member who posted saying he feels he needs to explain or apologize for anything happy he writes here, because he feels guilty for not being as down as other people.I say, wow, good, more power to him. He's further in healing then I am, and he is proof it DOES get better. I'm all for seeing MORE 'happy' here.

(I am deleting a paragraph here that I was uncomfortable to write to begin with, but felt it should be said, as perhaps an 'opposing view'. I still feel it, what I originally said. But it is perhaps to harsh a commentary on a certain subject, and the safety and integrity of this site as a whole is much more importent to me then my personal view that seems drastically different from the masses. So this particular paragraph I am deleting as I think better of it).

Shutting up now before the rotten tomatoes are thrown.

Leosha
 
I couldn't personally select from the options.
MAY TRIGGER

Before I started dealing with all of my issues, I used to imagine different scenarios that could have happened in place of what did.

I used to imagine that if I had been attacked and severely beaten and then forced to do things, that it would have given me more peace of mind than being slowly groomed and having my frames of reference distorted for ever.

I used to fantasise about being kidnapped by a man and a woman so that they could both use me - this was when I was about 13 (abused when I was just turned 12 - I introduced the woman because I then knew that somehow that's what I was supposed to eventually be with & I didn't quite understand how he had told me that if we went with men as children, we would be better for women when we became men).

I used to think that it would have been better if it had happened earlier, so that I might have forgotton about it whilst I was discovering the world.

I used to dream what would have happened if he had tried to groom me a year or 2 later - would I then have had the knowledge to reject his advances?

I don't think that there is a better scenario unless it never happened.

When I arrived here & started to hear what had happened to others, then I understood that none of the options that I had fantasised about would have made things better.

It should never have happened at all; to anyone!

Best wishes ...Rik
 
Jasper
I hope that you reconsider your choice, and stick around. I know how much MS means to you, and how much help and support you find here. Don't lose that because you feel frustrated.

We have a lot in common, our ages and marriages, and we both started to deal with our crap at about the same age.
I think it's a difficult age to start recovery, I'm certain my recovery got mixed up with a genuine mid life crisis.

I've been in the same job, with no promotion, for 27 years, no kids, same house, same friends, same everything.
Suddenly the memories ( that I've always had ) became too much and affected my behaviours - acting out. So I felt bad about that, and got help.
But there was also the underlying feeling of under-achieving about my life in general. And it's no surprise that the CSA stuff made the rest a thousand times worse.
I dealt with some of it in therapy, and still do in group work.

These two seperate things triggered each other, with very negative effects. As I dealt with the CSA though I felt better about myself, and saw that much of my 'perceived failure' in life was actually a result of the abuse, but it took a while to figure that out and accept it.

And until I did, I was a jerk. Just ask my wife sometime!
I'm NOT saying that you behave like a jerk, but that you PERCEIVE your behaviour as being that of a jerk and (over)react.

Not everyone here is going to get on without a bit of friction sometime, that's the way it is. Just consider the amount of anger that we have between us for a start, in all honesty MS is remarkably friendly for a bunch of guys with our assorted problems.

let's deal with the problems, support each other, and see Jasper through what might be a difficult time.

Dave
 
I do not know, that there is an answer to it. I have no, ever overlook that - memories that happens with me. I overlook, when it began, I only know, that my earliest memoirs, already it happen. But I do not forget any concerning it which happen. But I do not feel all this those years, even to know about it, I 'do not feel' it because it would not be appropriate. It would be loss of the control, it will be weakness for me as the person man. So now, with the help of people here and friends here in my life, to me authorize to feel things which so long, I am afraid. So it is possible a little that you speak, because it - now all feelings past 20 years ago and 5 years ago and 8 years ago resembles, now I feel them. But always I know them. So I do not know, that I can answer your question. I think, that all here badly itself feel us from us directly sometime, and will argue probably. I argued with several persons with whom I am most to relatives last months. It does not make them poorly, and I think, that it does not make me poorly. It - something, that if you have true respect for other person, it can still work.

VN
 
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