A difficult subject, angry at female survivors of male abusers

A difficult subject, angry at female survivors of male abusers

dark empathy

Registrant
Today on the news, both sky news and bbc, there were items about the sentencing of R Kelly.

There was even a snippet from one of his victims saying how she was just a young girl and he smashed her dreams, and how his sentencing was justice for her and his other victims (thankfully she confined this to herself and his victims specifically, and didn't go on about all women).

My lady said: "sorry, but he is a monster."
I replied "Yes, but I hope this isn't going to mean yet more me too rubbish."

We didn't get into an argument, as we sometimes have when I get angry at the me too bullshit and my sense of powerlessness, but I can't deny my lady was right.

On a moral level, yes, obviously, R Kelly and people like him are monsters, on a moral level, I can even wish the victim well, like I wish the survivors of the September 11th Terror attacks well. I don't know them, I won't ever likely meat them, being in another country, but I hope they're alright.

But I can't deny part of me is feeling actually angry at his victim!

not angry for speaking out, but angry because I'm sure she'll get all the comforting and cositing, be told how brave and strong and couragious she is, get to join the sisterhood, be held up as a shining example for all women on resisting athe patriarchy! I'm sure she'll get chat shows and attention and, lots of people validating her healing!

And of course, whenever someone tries to stay that not all men are abusive, R Kelly will just go up along side the likes of Weinstein, and the angry feminists will say:
"Yes, but look at these powerful men, who use their position to abuse the poor little women! oh woe is the fucking patriarchy!"

I actually feel conflicted! I don't want! to be angry at this woman who spoke out, I don't want! to be jealous of her attention, I should be applauding her.
But, because she's a woman, because she's getting all the attention and love, because it feels like she's got her hole life ahead of her while I'm stuck in a holding pattern I do honestly feel jealous of her.


This isn't to say I don't think R Kelly should've been prosicuted, he's in prison for the next thirty years and that's the best place for him, but I do! wish that I could just say:
"throw him in jail!" and be done with that, and not! be thinking at all of the other implications of this, or of the help and attention and success which his victims will be getting.

Yeah I know, this is probably a taboo subject, I know I should! be sympathetic to female abuse survivors, heck odds are if I met the woman in person I probably would be.
But with how shitty the world seems to be and how much power female victims, or even women in general get, I honestly am not sure what to think.

Sorry for dumping this here, but its probably the best way to process this.

Oh and btw, if anyone is thinking I should "bring this up with my therapist", I don't have a therapist, because when I checked once again, the Nhs doesn't offer therapy when abuse is not by a family member, since they expect the court to pay for it otherwise, something I'm sure R Kelly's victims will get lots of.

Luke.
 
I think these are pretty natural feelings. I too get jealous when I see someone getting something I needed and never got.

I spent years studying Buddhism. When faced with the natural feeling of jealousy, the Buddha encourages us to instead attempt to replace that feeling with what he called sympathetic joy, which is being grateful that someone else is happy, is getting their needs met, has something nice, etc. However, like everything else the Buddha encourages, learning to feel this way takes a shitload of practice, and doesn't always work for me.

An alternative that I sometimes use is to think about the massive amount of pain that person is now in, thanks to someone else's choices. Thinking that way sometimes helps me to realize that we are both survivors and not so different. They are suffering, just like me. They are going to have to spend years trying to heal, just like me. They are going to have to go through a lot of shit through zero fault of their own, just like me. Even if they get all the resources in the world to deal with that pain, they still have to do that work - just like me.

Finally, I spent a lot of time in my past making everything about gender and tabulating my gains and losses as a man against what I saw women getting. To be perfectly honest, that was a sad and angry way for me to live. Not everything can or should be viewed in terms of gender. Even if everyone else is doing it, I found it was a real trap for me that stood like a giant wall in the way of actual healing. But I really did need a therapist's help to get over that. I know money is tight for you Luke, but is there any chance of private therapy?
 
@Strangeways, I appreciate the thoughts here, but I admit this is difficult because, well the point is this woman is not "just like me!"

She will be getting aid, attention and a future, she might even be benefiting directly from her status as a victim, she will get all the support groups, friends and cosseting in the world, she will certainly be mandated therapy by the court, I will not.

yes, we're both starting the race with two broken legs, but she has a hole sisterhood of people to carry her along in a cushioned chair, while I'm just lying on the ground, in too much pain to crawl anywhere.

The pain might be the same, but which of us is going to get further, or indeed get anywhere at all.

That is the major problem here.

Its not that I need to be rich and famous or known across the world, its that I need something! Some degree of recognition, some power over my life, some ability to actually achieve something!

The problem again comes back to powerlessness being a trigger, and powerlessness being my default state.
I try my best not to consider the gender inequity question, unfortunately its a little difficult when its a constant in life, Ironically though if i actually had! any of this vaunted "white male privilege!", which people go on about, if I actually had! some recognition for what I achieved, if I opened my email each morning and saw someone saying:
"Luke, could you write this for me!"
or "Luke! I really liked the stuff you sent me yesterday, but could you do something more?"

That's where the resentment comes in, since women get admiration for simply existing, and if they're victims of abuse, even more so.
Most of the time, I feel like the ravenous bugblatter beast of traal from douglas Adams, people think as I can't see them, they can't see me.

Indeed, I regularly struggle with agoraphobia for this precise reason.

The one bright spot in this, and the one respect I have actually been lucky is my lady, who actually does stick with me through all of this, indeed I don't like to think where I'd be without her, but she has pointed out herself that she can't literally be everything to me, and certainly can't be my therapist, being my wife, indeed it doesn't help that she's as stuck for something to do as I am due to England being pretty crappy for blind people under the age of 70.

As to therapy, absolutely not possible at all.
We are two people living on one person's disability benefit.

we just break even, by basically not wanting material things, our one extravagance are fortnightly singing lessons, since maintaining our voices is just generally a good thing to do, but there's certainly no spare money for therapy, quite aside from the fact that finding a therapist who knows anything about male survivors isn't easy, (after my less than stellar experiences with the university councilling service, I'm a little wary of looking for someone generic, especially at the prices charged).

This isn't to discount your advice, you aren't wrong, however, the problem is that in my case a large part of the problem does seem to be circumstances, which again are impossible to change.
As I said, I realise that feeling resentment towards a victim of abuse is a bad thing, I understand that on a purely intellectual level and yes, misery poker is a pretty crappy game.

However, I suspect until actual circumstances change this is just something I'm going to have to deal with, probably coming on here for the odd rant.

This isn't to discount your advice, you likely aren't wrong either about therapy, or about Buddhist practices, but unless something changes neither of those are things I can really do at the moment.

Luke.
 
I called a sexual abuse and assault line once and the woman on the line said we only help victims not perpetrators. Probably because I'm male she thought I wasn't a victim. So I can understand the anger toward female victims getting all the attention. I recently emailed a sexual assault and abuse center to ask if they have anything for men and of course I haven't heard back. Unfortunately as men we are taught our problems aren't as important, especially sexual abuse and assault. My abuse has been belittled by women. And I've even heard that men and even children (boys) whom are victims is a good thing because we should "learn something from the plight of women and girls". Like men and boys getting abused is just retribution or revenge for women and girls. It pisses me off too. There are barely if any programs for men and boys whom are victims of sexual abuse or assault. I've been told boys can't be molested, I was lucky because/if my step mother was good looking, and girls are the real victims. I'm tired of it.

I'm sorry you don't have a therapist. Can you not try and find one. They don't necessarily have to specialize in sexual abuse. It's good to talk to someone.
 
Men are unfortunately disposable waste in this world. Things are slowly improving though and we are getting some pretty big heroes making public appearances for past male on male assault. One step at a time.

In the meantime we bite our lip, tough it out, and pat our own backs. That's the best we can do for now.
 
Contradictory things lurk in the shadows when accusations of abuse take place.

Feminism proposes some things that are contradictory.

1. That men and women are equal, and there was never any reason for them to be unequal.
(Not true. Gender roles have existed because without post-industrialization, men and women's physical differences matter a lot. This generally led to the practices of the objectification of women and the disposability of men)

2. That sexual crimes are about power, not about sex. (Again, not true. They INVOLVE power, as all crimes do, but the goal is to get sex. It would be like saying that the goal of robbery is about power, not wealth or resources)

3. What takes place in abuse is simply about the abuse of power. (This is partly true, but as we have seen, not wholly so. Without the potential threat of male violence, it means less in popular thought. So, for instance, a man being threatened with, say, being fired unless he has sex with a woman is rarely depicted as abusive.)

4. People being sexually abused don't enjoy it. Sex is only enjoyable if it's consensual (Not true. Women, however, find it easier to pretend that they were not into the sex than men)

The thing is, we all know that people are often only pretending to be concerned about issues to look good.
 
Combat Deaths 99.9% MALE
Work Deaths 94% MALE
Homicides 76% MALE
Suicide 75% MALE

But the women! They don't have enough rights! They have it so, so bad!
 
Hi Khabeni,

I am sorry you were told something so inappropriate when you called for help.

I had a very bad experience when I called the rape crisis line, too. Many years later and that same rape crisis center is finally no longer threatening males when they call and they are offering individual sessions.

There are very few services for males in the United States. I cannot tell you about other countries, other than Canada, which is also dealing with a paucity of services for males.

Most Domestic Violence (DV) and Sexual Violence (SV) resources not only do not offer services for males, they are still using discriminatory and perjorative phrasing to describe the services they offer: "Helping women and children overcome the effects of DV and SV."

I have reached out to all of the rape crisis centers who use that phrasing, telling them that that says two things:

1. Only women and children are victims, and
2. Only males are perpetrators.

None of them responded to me. None of them changed the wording on their sites for years. A few may have changed the wording, but it isn't much better. Most still refer to themselves as centers helping "women and children."

What part of that makes a male feel like he would receive any help? What part of that makes a male feel like he won't be regarded as "the problem" or as a "perpetrator?"

That anyone would suggest that it is retribution for males to experience the abuses females experience, is sickening. One does not need to be violated in the most heinous way to be empathetic.

Boys and men are sexually abused and assaulted. It is no less destructive to boys and to men than it is to females, and in some ways, it is more destructive, given the societal messages about what a "male" "should be," as well as the assumptions / allegations about "being gay" or "letting" it happen, as though it was a choice.

As males we are taught we should lose our lives rather than to "let anyone" harm us in that way. Females are taught to survive the abuse / assault.

Why is it when an older man is sexual with an underage girl, everyone knows it is abuse, but when it is an older woman with an underage boy, they still say "he got lucky?"

It doesn't matter "how good looking" the adult is. It is a violation of the body and the mind. It is a violation of the law. It is sexual abuse and an abuse of power. Why is there a different standard?

As males, we are told about the "myths," which are presented as unmutable facts. We WILL become abusers because it was done to us. No one says that to females who have been abused or assaulted.

Because that one myth is so widely accepted as "fact," there are men all over the United States who lose custody of their children and who may be denied visitation because it is stated (whether true or not) during custody hearings that the father was sexually abused. That is all it takes for the judge to "know" the man is a "danger" to his children, even though NO wrong doing was ever asserted prior to the custody hearing. Custody is given to the other parent, even if she is emotionally abusive, or worse, and is clearly not the better parent for the child (children) involved.

There are many aspects of sexual abuse / assault males have to deal with that do not affect females.

As long as the "myths" continue to be accepted as "truths" by the legal and law enforcement communities, these disparities will continue.

The louder we are able to make our voices, the more we are able to educate against the myths and the more we are able to demand services for the wrongs we experienced, the greater the likelihood we will be able to get the various agencies to realize they are doing a disservice to half of the population.

Progress is slow, as it is with any group which is trying to be heard and to get their needs met.

Agencies which are supposed to be providing services for DV and SV need to open their minds and accept that males are victimized and they are not always the perpetrators.

Society bears a lot of the responsibility.

How many times is someone sexually assaulted and the first things one hears or reads is "why was htat person wearing that," or "why was that person out at that time of night?"

In other words, the first thing society does is to blame the victim.

Why?

Because to blame the perpetrator would mean they, and those they love, are potentially vulnerable and at risk. If they blame the individual who was sexually assaulted, it provides a false sense of security that it would "never happen" to them.

Combating the victim blaming anytime we encounter it, regardless who has been sexually assaulted, is necessary to get people to stop thinking they live in a bubble and if they only blame those who have been harmed than it cannot possibly happen to them or to those they love.

There is a lot of work to be done on many fronts.

I hope none of you ever (again) hear the words that you will not be helped because of your gender / gender identity.

If you do hear those words, calmly tell the person who is on the "help line" that you deserve the same help that anyone who has been abused / assaulted deserves.

I hope your words will be heard and the help you so richly deserve will be offered.





Anomalous
 
Hi Khabeni,

I am sorry you were told something so inappropriate when you called for help.

I had a very bad experience when I called the rape crisis line, too. Many years later and that same rape crisis center is finally no longer threatening males when they call and they are offering individual sessions.

There are very few services for males in the United States. I cannot tell you about other countries, other than Canada, which is also dealing with a paucity of services for males.

Most Domestic Violence (DV) and Sexual Violence (SV) resources not only do not offer services for males, they are still using discriminatory and perjorative phrasing to describe the services they offer: "Helping women and children overcome the effects of DV and SV."

I have reached out to all of the rape crisis centers who use that phrasing, telling them that that says two things:

1. Only women and children are victims, and
2. Only males are perpetrators.

None of them responded to me. None of them changed the wording on their sites for years. A few may have changed the wording, but it isn't much better. Most still refer to themselves as centers helping "women and children."

What part of that makes a male feel like he would receive any help? What part of that makes a male feel like he won't be regarded as "the problem" or as a "perpetrator?"

That anyone would suggest that it is retribution for males to experience the abuses females experience, is sickening. One does not need to be violated in the most heinous way to be empathetic.

Boys and men are sexually abused and assaulted. It is no less destructive to boys and to men than it is to females, and in some ways, it is more destructive, given the societal messages about what a "male" "should be," as well as the assumptions / allegations about "being gay" or "letting" it happen, as though it was a choice.

As males we are taught we should lose our lives rather than to "let anyone" harm us in that way. Females are taught to survive the abuse / assault.

Why is it when an older man is sexual with an underage girl, everyone knows it is abuse, but when it is an older woman with an underage boy, they still say "he got lucky?"

It doesn't matter "how good looking" the adult is. It is a violation of the body and the mind. It is a violation of the law. It is sexual abuse and an abuse of power. Why is there a different standard?

As males, we are told about the "myths," which are presented as unmutable facts. We WILL become abusers because it was done to us. No one says that to females who have been abused or assaulted.

Because that one myth is so widely accepted as "fact," there are men all over the United States who lose custody of their children and who may be denied visitation because it is stated (whether true or not) during custody hearings that the father was sexually abused. That is all it takes for the judge to "know" the man is a "danger" to his children, even though NO wrong doing was ever asserted prior to the custody hearing. Custody is given to the other parent, even if she is emotionally abusive, or worse, and is clearly not the better parent for the child (children) involved.

There are many aspects of sexual abuse / assault males have to deal with that do not affect females.

As long as the "myths" continue to be accepted as "truths" by the legal and law enforcement communities, these disparities will continue.

The louder we are able to make our voices, the more we are able to educate against the myths and the more we are able to demand services for the wrongs we experienced, the greater the likelihood we will be able to get the various agencies to realize they are doing a disservice to half of the population.

Progress is slow, as it is with any group which is trying to be heard and to get their needs met.

Agencies which are supposed to be providing services for DV and SV need to open their minds and accept that males are victimized and they are not always the perpetrators.

Society bears a lot of the responsibility.

How many times is someone sexually assaulted and the first things one hears or reads is "why was htat person wearing that," or "why was that person out at that time of night?"

In other words, the first thing society does is to blame the victim.

Why?

Because to blame the perpetrator would mean they, and those they love, are potentially vulnerable and at risk. If they blame the individual who was sexually assaulted, it provides a false sense of security that it would "never happen" to them.

Combating the victim blaming anytime we encounter it, regardless who has been sexually assaulted, is necessary to get people to stop thinking they live in a bubble and if they only blame those who have been harmed than it cannot possibly happen to them or to those they love.

There is a lot of work to be done on many fronts.

I hope none of you ever (again) hear the words that you will not be helped because of your gender / gender identity.

If you do hear those words, calmly tell the person who is on the "help line" that you deserve the same help that anyone who has been abused / assaulted deserves.

I hope your words will be heard and the help you so richly deserve will be offered.





Anomalous
Thank you for understanding. As men and boys we don't get the same help. I don't know if I said it, but I also recently emailed a domestic violence/sexual assault/abuse center to ask if they have any services for males. Haven't heard back from them yet, and I doubt I will. I have a therapist and I was going to bring my abuse up with her during our next session, so hopefully that goes well. I haven't brought it up with her yet mostly because I was abused by women, and I'm afraid she'll just blow it off. She's a good therapist, and she is good at keeping professional boundaries, so maybe it'll go well. I've been having flashbacks pretty bad recently and I started cutting myself again. I just wish the pain would go away.
 
Hi Khabeni,

I am sorry to hear you are dealing with flashbacks.

Hopefully your therapist will be open-minded (as any good therapist should be) and she will help you through this trauma, rather than making things worse for you.

The stresses of the flashbacks and the anxiety associated with making the disclosure to your T must really have you feeling out of control to reach for the coping mechanism of cutting again to help you feel like you have some control over what you are experiencing.

If your T is a good T, she will be able to help you through this.

I do not know how much experience you have with therapy, or how much experience you have with good therapy.

Therapy with a well qualified therapist is the most difficult and the most rewarding job you will ever have.

There will be bad days and there will be worse days. You will find yourself having a few good days and eventually the good days will outnumber the bad days.

The coping mechanisms you currently use will be replaced with coping mechanisms which will not include the need to harm yourself and you will discover things can get better than you ever thought possible.

The work you do in therapy will be mentally and physically exhausting.

As you go through the rigors of healing, try to keep one thing in mind - you are WORTH IT!

Despite what you have been told in the past and, sadly, whatever you may have come to believe about yourself, the truth is you are worthy of the help and of a happier life, and you have always been worthy.

Hearing that you are worthy may bring forth feelings of physical and emotional pain. It is because you are not used to hearing it and not because it is not true.

Be gentle and kind to yourself.




Anomalous
 
I can see why people are getting angry and I truly understand, I too get angry by the way men are treated and portrayed on TV and such, now, I do have all sympathy for women survivors and I wish them well on their recovery but I just wish male survivors like us got the same treatment, It seems so unfair and just it's just not right.
Males are so often seen as the predators or people think ' oh, it doesn't happen to men' etc and when it does, no one seems to care as much, it's always ' men are b@stards, they only have one thing on their mind ' and it just annoys me.
Everybody should be treated the same regardless of orientation, sexuality etc
 
@Khabeni, I've tried Samaritans in the past, but all that usually happens is someone sits there and says "mmmm", at the end of each sentence, which just doesn't help much at all, so these days I don't bother with them.

We've tried to get me a phone appointment with a local survivors of incest and sexual abuse hotline, who do telephone counselling but their waiting list is over a year, plus to be honest with some of the horror stories I've recently heard about therapy, I'm a little reluctant if the therapist has no experience in male survivors of female perpetrators.


At this point I just feel like a dead man walking, indeed the anger I mentioned in this topic is transitioning into something else, which is good since pointless anger does nothing.

Then again being powerless before narcissistic women in public is a state I know very well, and a lesson I learned all those years as a teenager.

in me the feminists have achieved just what they want, a man with no creativity, no volition, no ambition, no future.

I've promised my lady I'll stay with her, and I will, but that's all I can do unless something changes, and it's not like waiting for change isn't a position I've been in before.

Women are luminous and loud and loved, and that's just how the world is.

As I'm already the invisible man, I will be the intangible man as well.


Luke.
 
So true, This Is Me.

It seems, lately, that "male bashing" is the thing to do.

Those who engage in it see nothing wrong in treating a group of individuals in a way they would not want to be treated, or regarded.

Whether they think males are finally getting their "come uppance" for the way women were objectified in the past, or there are other reasons why they think it is "okay" to treat us as targets, it seems this behavior is on the rise.

Any male who tries to stand up for himself, or for his gender / gender identity is labeled with negative attributes and is told he is "uncaring" or "insensitive" to what women have endured over the ages.

I was always taught "two wrongs do not make a right."

How is treating males with no respect and having no regard for the crimes being perpetrated against them supposed to "rectify" the crimes which have been perpetrated against women?

Whether on MS or elsewhere, I endeavor to educate people and to empower them with knowledge.

How does one reach minds which are closed and, worse, which feel justified in harming, demeaning and dismissing another group?

I wish I had an answer.




Anomalous
 
Exactly Anomalous.

Personally I feel its going around the other way, women are now being so hostile to men, nasty etc and it seems we have to put up with it because we are men, I don't think so, we should all have a voice and we should all stand together against all sorts of abuse, be it sexual, mental, physical or whatever, whether you're a man or woman it's just not on, abuse is abuse and we need to stamp it out.
 
Today on the news, both sky news and bbc, there were items about the sentencing of R Kelly.

There was even a snippet from one of his victims saying how she was just a young girl and he smashed her dreams, and how his sentencing was justice for her and his other victims (thankfully she confined this to herself and his victims specifically, and didn't go on about all women).

My lady said: "sorry, but he is a monster."
I replied "Yes, but I hope this isn't going to mean yet more me too rubbish."

We didn't get into an argument, as we sometimes have when I get angry at the me too bullshit and my sense of powerlessness, but I can't deny my lady was right.

On a moral level, yes, obviously, R Kelly and people like him are monsters, on a moral level, I can even wish the victim well, like I wish the survivors of the September 11th Terror attacks well. I don't know them, I won't ever likely meat them, being in another country, but I hope they're alright.

But I can't deny part of me is feeling actually angry at his victim!

not angry for speaking out, but angry because I'm sure she'll get all the comforting and cositing, be told how brave and strong and couragious she is, get to join the sisterhood, be held up as a shining example for all women on resisting athe patriarchy! I'm sure she'll get chat shows and attention and, lots of people validating her healing!

And of course, whenever someone tries to stay that not all men are abusive, R Kelly will just go up along side the likes of Weinstein, and the angry feminists will say:
"Yes, but look at these powerful men, who use their position to abuse the poor little women! oh woe is the fucking patriarchy!"

I actually feel conflicted! I don't want! to be angry at this woman who spoke out, I don't want! to be jealous of her attention, I should be applauding her.
But, because she's a woman, because she's getting all the attention and love, because it feels like she's got her hole life ahead of her while I'm stuck in a holding pattern I do honestly feel jealous of her.


This isn't to say I don't think R Kelly should've been prosicuted, he's in prison for the next thirty years and that's the best place for him, but I do! wish that I could just say:
"throw him in jail!" and be done with that, and not! be thinking at all of the other implications of this, or of the help and attention and success which his victims will be getting.

Yeah I know, this is probably a taboo subject, I know I should! be sympathetic to female abuse survivors, heck odds are if I met the woman in person I probably would be.
But with how shitty the world seems to be and how much power female victims, or even women in general get, I honestly am not sure what to think.

Sorry for dumping this here, but its probably the best way to process this.

Oh and btw, if anyone is thinking I should "bring this up with my therapist", I don't have a therapist, because when I checked once again, the Nhs doesn't offer therapy when abuse is not by a family member, since they expect the court to pay for it otherwise, something I'm sure R Kelly's victims will get lots of.

Luke.
I can totally relate to how you are feeling. That's why I find it so difficult to share anything with anyone. More humiliation, more mockery. It's as if when it happens to males it's either our fault or they percieve it as being lucky. My abuse was both terrifying and humiliating. And any time I have tried to be open I have been mocked or humiliated more. It is very hard to feel empathy for women, because of this. They have no clue what I went through, but they will make a lot of assumptions because i am a male.
 
I can totally relate to how you are feeling. That's why I find it so difficult to share anything with anyone. More humiliation, more mockery. It's as if when it happens to males it's either our fault or they percieve it as being lucky. My abuse was both terrifying and humiliating. And any time I have tried to be open I have been mocked or humiliated more. It is very hard to feel empathy for women, because of this. They have no clue what I went through, but they will make a lot of assumptions because i am a male.
Generally, feminists either respond to male survivors as a small add on, or else they see it as a method of subverting feminism, unless the abused are victims of men and are, ideally, LGBT.
 
@Celtaf, in feminist discussions of LGBT victims, it is always based on the identity of the abuser.
The victim gets sympathy because he (even when it is a he), has been the victim of those horrible straight males (usually straight white males), and so is an ally in the standard feminist hatred. We even saw this on the forum not long ago with that crazy male lesbian troll who was trying to argue that women were always victims.

It's like the bar to join the feminism picket is not actually that someone is a woman, but that someone merely acknowledges that straight men are evil, indeed some of the most rabid so called "feminists", I've seen, both in person (or at least online), or in Hollywood are actually men, which is just plane sad!

Luke.
 
@Celtaf, in feminist discussions of LGBT victims, it is always based on the identity of the abuser.
The victim gets sympathy because he (even when it is a he), has been the victim of those horrible straight males (usually straight white males), and so is an ally in the standard feminist hatred. We even saw this on the forum not long ago with that crazy male lesbian troll who was trying to argue that women were always victims.

It's like the bar to join the feminism picket is not actually that someone is a woman, but that someone merely acknowledges that straight men are evil, indeed some of the most rabid so called "feminists", I've seen, both in person (or at least online), or in Hollywood are actually men, which is just plane sad!

Luke.
What comes across to me with that is resentment and envy, and insistence upon following dogma. What is almost more irritating though is the way that people who haven't examined the information leap to defend the movement. I don't altogether blame such people because it indicates that the propaganda machine works very, very well.
 
The problem, is that misandry has behind it several thousand years of cultural force that women are of greater value and need to be protected and men are disposable.

Misogyny by contrast, and here I mean the classical definition of misogyny as in hatred of, and desire to do down or do harm to women, not the modern idea that anyone who doesn't acknowledge female superiority, has been growing rarer for the past 300 years. Even in the Victorian era, much of the social restrictions women experienced were based not on hatred or denigration, but intrinsic beliefs in female value, that for example, women taking jobs outside the home would be a threat to their purity, or that women shoudln't sully themselves with grubby pursuits such as business. Yes, on a purely opportunistic level of political equality this sort of thing is rubbish, however it would be intrinsically wrong to call this actual "misogyny", or "hatred analogous to the misandry directed at men.
this is why I've tended to find the only people who show equal care for men's well fare, tend to be those who have had some sort of personal experiences.

For example, a couple of weeks ago our phone lines went down. We got an engineer to visit who turned out to be a fairly nice lady in her thirties.

while we were waiting for a second engineer to turn up; since fixing the phone problem required going down a manhole which also needed someone up top to keep the street clear, the engineer lady got a call on her phone.

I couldn't help over hearing. The call concerned a previous job she'd had where an upstairs neighbour of the man she'd gone to see was yelling abusive language, and making lewd suggestions, right up to , she said she hadn't been bothered herself, since she'd previously worked in the prison service and had heard everything.

the person on the other end of the phone said: "well we won't send one of the girls there", whereupon the engineer said:

"and not some of the lads too, they really wouldn't like that."

And suggested checking that the upstairs neighbour wasn't around before going there again.

What was odd, is that when she finished on the phone and was explaining the situation to me, she only said: "the women might find it upsetting", as if her attempting to warn her male colleagues about a potentially unpleasant situation was something she wanted to hide.

I didn't go into details, but I did say:
"You mentioned men too."

Whereupon she said: "Yes", reiterated how the upstairs neighbour was unplesant, and how the man she'd actually gone to see was also worried about his son living near a potential psycho, (apparently the man was also trying to move).

What was interesting, is that I suspect she obviously thought of her male colleagues protectively precisely because! she'd been in the prison service, and thus had presumably seen various people (likely including some extremely horrible women), but that when talking to me , a stranger, and a physically not so small and at least slightly buff man with an extremely tiny wife (albeit both of us visually impared), she only mentioned caring about women, as though in some way she expected me to disapprove of her concern for her male colleagues.

Again, this is why feminism is evil, since it makes the experiences and concerns of real people with some degree of actual life experience, like the phone engineer, completely invalid, because "women good, men bad!"

It certainly isn't the first political movement based on convincing people to give up their brains and go with basic lizard instincts, but those sorts of things have never worked outt well.

When I am thinking rationally, I would like things to go back to where they were in the nineties or early norties, with less emphasis on constant reiteration of hatred and more of a positive outward bennt.
When I am reminded of my huge stack of rejection letters, all those agents who want "female voices", and the amount of shitposting, gas lighting and other ridiculous crap feminists and their supporters get up to, I want things to go a little further, I want to see publishers saying:

"no more female voices! lets' here from men!" I want to see the likes of amber herd and other female abusers being given the full treatment of public shame! I want misandrist books like Erica Johansen's to be castigated, banned, and shunned, and their authors so publicly ridiculed they will never write again! I want to see women being told that they need to stop with all this distrustful crap, and either need to work for public status or get back in the kitchen! I want to see an end to this "me too!" shit and any claim of sexual abuse by a woman be given full scrutiny, not just allowing her to make up anything she wants! I want to see people celebrating men and masculine heroes, I want to see anyone who says "toxic masculinity", getting a stern rebuke and kicked off the internet!
I want to see old fashioned stories with damsels in distress back, and people reminded that yes, sometimes women can be vvulnerable! I want to see stories where women make mistakes, mess up and need to learn from them not! be called sexist!

I realise this is envy, pure and simple, it's not rational or ethical, however paradoxically the only cure for not feeling this way would be a small measure, not even much, of the very power and acknowledgement that I am envious of, and which women seem to get for simply existing; especially now.

The problem is, as usual what I want doesn't matter.

Luke.
 
What you want does matter, but you are pushing against a tide of
- people who just want to go along to get along and don’t want to think
- people who are invested in the big story (patriarchy theory, man bad woman good)
- people who are deeply indoctrinated without knowing it and believe they are doing good
- opportunists and cynical power seekers
- true believers

We are often told about how rational modern people are. I have seen little evidence for this. What we do have is a system of thought that largely relies on a notion of empirical evidence that is often unbalanced against such evidence when weighed against ideological purpose. In other words, how we look at ideals about equality are as rational as the books on how to hunt witches. If you presume things to be true, it follows that evidence meets the standards of the preconceived belief.

We have a problem in our society where feminists claimed that women were denied access to economic and political power based on the idea that they were held to unfair standards. Then, feminists along with other progressives have insisted that all standards imposed by people who used to dominate power structures were unjust, not because the standards, upon examination, did not work, but because those people were men. So holding women to a clear standard is held suspect.
 
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