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- Thread starterindygal
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a little while later - is late i should go to sleep - but the pain is coming now - like a rock in the pit of my stomach - it hurts - i honestly don't know what took so long -
i so want him to understand what he's doing but i know that's next to impossible - is so difficult to accept - maybe because when people first learn about csa - no matter if it's us or someone we know - the first humane reaction is the knowledge it's happened and we can't do anything about it - and the next humane reaction is to try and reach out and protect the one it happened to - and that's when we realize we can't touch them -
i can't even touch him, i can't even reach him; that's why it hurts so much. he has no idea, absolutely no idea. is so sad, so very sad. i'm so sorry for that, so sorry.
i so want him to understand what he's doing but i know that's next to impossible - is so difficult to accept - maybe because when people first learn about csa - no matter if it's us or someone we know - the first humane reaction is the knowledge it's happened and we can't do anything about it - and the next humane reaction is to try and reach out and protect the one it happened to - and that's when we realize we can't touch them -
i can't even touch him, i can't even reach him; that's why it hurts so much. he has no idea, absolutely no idea. is so sad, so very sad. i'm so sorry for that, so sorry.
Iwanttohelphim
Registrant
Indy,
I am sending hugs. I am right there with you. I know this routine and it HURTS- IT HURTS LIKE HELL.
Being emotionally abused is devastating. I am sorry sweets. I can't say we ever lose them from our hearts :-D But it does get better with time. The days do eventually heal us and the separation begins to feel like freedom.
You don't know that this is forever. use the time from today until tomorrow to get stronger, to greive, to understand, use it to your benefit and if it is written, you will be together again- but we always have the love people give us- even when they are not with us.
One baby step at a time girl. It's going to be ok.
Bunny
I am sending hugs. I am right there with you. I know this routine and it HURTS- IT HURTS LIKE HELL.
Being emotionally abused is devastating. I am sorry sweets. I can't say we ever lose them from our hearts :-D But it does get better with time. The days do eventually heal us and the separation begins to feel like freedom.
You don't know that this is forever. use the time from today until tomorrow to get stronger, to greive, to understand, use it to your benefit and if it is written, you will be together again- but we always have the love people give us- even when they are not with us.
One baby step at a time girl. It's going to be ok.
Bunny
roadrunner
Registrant
indygal,
There's a lot going on in your posts here, and I will just pick out one theme.
Your guy is obviously getting into the "blame game" big-time with you. He thinks that everything around him is falling apart and he cannot do anything to stem the tide of collapse. He's afraid of how things are going and he is desperate about the future. All this has to be someone's fault.
In choosing YOU as the one who's to blame, it may be that he isn't blaming you in the sense that he really thinks it's all your fault. He may be choosing a safe target to vent all his feelings against. I know that won't make it less unfair, but perhaps knowing this, or considering this possibility, will help you.
When he give you the "you would be better off without me" line, that's a lot closer to how he reallt feels. He may blame you, but in reality he sees everything as his own fault. That's of course a false lesson he learned from abuse.
But it doesn't end there. When he blames you for all sorts of things that cannot possibly be your doing, he is turning you into HIS victim and he's showing a lot of disrespect. This may sound harsh, but I personally don't think any partner owes it to her guy to allow herself to become his doormat. It's not good for either of you.
It's not good for you, first of all, to think that helping him recover means you should accept behavior that's destructive to your own self-esteem and well-being. You are dealing with a man recovering from sexual abuse. This will take years perhaps. How much mistreatment will it take before it all starts to affect you very badly? And why should you allow this in the first place?
Beyond that, what effect will this have on your relationship? If you put up with bad treatment you send him the wrong message about your relationship: you signal to him that your needs and concerns are not important and that you as a person don't matter.
It's not good for him either. By acquiescing in this sort of treatment you are allowing him to escape from what he REALLY needs to do, which would be to work towards sticking to safe and reasonable boundaries in his relations with other people and facing his issues as they really are.
I'm not suggesting here that you should suddenly become a tyrant with him. But it just seems to me that there needs to be some movement back towards what a healthy relationship is all about: two people interacting in a way that brings joy and fulfillment to both of them.
Perhaps the key here is "movement". I think he needs to hear from you not just expressions and assurance of your love and support, though sure, that's very important. He also need to hear what you want and need, and he needs to know that you expect progress in that direction: his recovery isn't just about himself, or at least, it isn't if he wants to stay in a relationship.
Standing up for your own needs and priorities may sound selfish, but in fact, when you do that you are setting a very good example for him. If he sees that you insist on good boundaries, demand to be treated with respect, and will predictably react to protect and assert those demands, you are showing him exactly what he should be doing.
Perhaps it will help if you think of him as thrashing around in a raging sea. He feels lost and doomed, and then in the sea he sees a rock standing firm against the surf. He swims to the rock for safety and holds onto it. But if the rock itself begins to crumble then both are lost.
Much love,
Larry
There's a lot going on in your posts here, and I will just pick out one theme.
Your guy is obviously getting into the "blame game" big-time with you. He thinks that everything around him is falling apart and he cannot do anything to stem the tide of collapse. He's afraid of how things are going and he is desperate about the future. All this has to be someone's fault.
In choosing YOU as the one who's to blame, it may be that he isn't blaming you in the sense that he really thinks it's all your fault. He may be choosing a safe target to vent all his feelings against. I know that won't make it less unfair, but perhaps knowing this, or considering this possibility, will help you.
When he give you the "you would be better off without me" line, that's a lot closer to how he reallt feels. He may blame you, but in reality he sees everything as his own fault. That's of course a false lesson he learned from abuse.
But it doesn't end there. When he blames you for all sorts of things that cannot possibly be your doing, he is turning you into HIS victim and he's showing a lot of disrespect. This may sound harsh, but I personally don't think any partner owes it to her guy to allow herself to become his doormat. It's not good for either of you.
It's not good for you, first of all, to think that helping him recover means you should accept behavior that's destructive to your own self-esteem and well-being. You are dealing with a man recovering from sexual abuse. This will take years perhaps. How much mistreatment will it take before it all starts to affect you very badly? And why should you allow this in the first place?
Beyond that, what effect will this have on your relationship? If you put up with bad treatment you send him the wrong message about your relationship: you signal to him that your needs and concerns are not important and that you as a person don't matter.
It's not good for him either. By acquiescing in this sort of treatment you are allowing him to escape from what he REALLY needs to do, which would be to work towards sticking to safe and reasonable boundaries in his relations with other people and facing his issues as they really are.
I'm not suggesting here that you should suddenly become a tyrant with him. But it just seems to me that there needs to be some movement back towards what a healthy relationship is all about: two people interacting in a way that brings joy and fulfillment to both of them.
Perhaps the key here is "movement". I think he needs to hear from you not just expressions and assurance of your love and support, though sure, that's very important. He also need to hear what you want and need, and he needs to know that you expect progress in that direction: his recovery isn't just about himself, or at least, it isn't if he wants to stay in a relationship.
Standing up for your own needs and priorities may sound selfish, but in fact, when you do that you are setting a very good example for him. If he sees that you insist on good boundaries, demand to be treated with respect, and will predictably react to protect and assert those demands, you are showing him exactly what he should be doing.
Perhaps it will help if you think of him as thrashing around in a raging sea. He feels lost and doomed, and then in the sea he sees a rock standing firm against the surf. He swims to the rock for safety and holds onto it. But if the rock itself begins to crumble then both are lost.
Much love,
Larry
Brokenhearted
Registrant
Indygal,
I struggle with many of your same issues. I think Larry's reply was dead-on. We have to state our own boundaries, expect more from a person, just as our csa men need to learn to do too.
It's tricky, it's delicate, it's stressful. But I think in the long run if we are more demanding in a way of consideration for US, it teaches them something they need to be able to emulate (sp.?).
I'm not yet to the stage where I have asked much in return myself; I've recently only brought up his csa, mentioned this website, reaffirmed my love and commitment for him. Next I intend to begin to state that this needs to move, it's not satisfying for EITHER of us to let it stay as it is.
I'm going out of town today for a week, but intend to ck in when I can.
I feel for you; I think you're losing some of your own self-deserving respect in this at the moment. Larry said several times in posts to me that the csa man really DOES need to be reminded he is hurting others, they really CAN'T see it.
I don't know when I'll approach my husband again but it will be about moving forward and I'll stress the fact that we BOTH deserve that.
It's tough and the outcomes are uncertain. I know I'M not content with things as they are. Keep reminding yourself too that people CAN heal from this, at least in some ways. ANY improvement or healing would be great. I have to remind myself to hold the truth that healing is possible and so it doesn't have to stay this way. Even though I'll be the one urging emotional healing on (with therapy). I already did say once to my husband that even if we're not together at some point in the future, for him to please talk to someone for his OWN benefit, he would be such a happier person, he deserves that. I think he realized what I was saying.
Larry, is it your opinion that the longer someone carries this csa around inside them, the harder it is for them to heal from it? I'd like to know what you think about that too - but you yourself said you had denied it for over 3 decades, I think, and you at least understand now the academics of healing very well.
I struggle with many of your same issues. I think Larry's reply was dead-on. We have to state our own boundaries, expect more from a person, just as our csa men need to learn to do too.
It's tricky, it's delicate, it's stressful. But I think in the long run if we are more demanding in a way of consideration for US, it teaches them something they need to be able to emulate (sp.?).
I'm not yet to the stage where I have asked much in return myself; I've recently only brought up his csa, mentioned this website, reaffirmed my love and commitment for him. Next I intend to begin to state that this needs to move, it's not satisfying for EITHER of us to let it stay as it is.
I'm going out of town today for a week, but intend to ck in when I can.
I feel for you; I think you're losing some of your own self-deserving respect in this at the moment. Larry said several times in posts to me that the csa man really DOES need to be reminded he is hurting others, they really CAN'T see it.
I don't know when I'll approach my husband again but it will be about moving forward and I'll stress the fact that we BOTH deserve that.
It's tough and the outcomes are uncertain. I know I'M not content with things as they are. Keep reminding yourself too that people CAN heal from this, at least in some ways. ANY improvement or healing would be great. I have to remind myself to hold the truth that healing is possible and so it doesn't have to stay this way. Even though I'll be the one urging emotional healing on (with therapy). I already did say once to my husband that even if we're not together at some point in the future, for him to please talk to someone for his OWN benefit, he would be such a happier person, he deserves that. I think he realized what I was saying.
Larry, is it your opinion that the longer someone carries this csa around inside them, the harder it is for them to heal from it? I'd like to know what you think about that too - but you yourself said you had denied it for over 3 decades, I think, and you at least understand now the academics of healing very well.
Indy,
Sounds like you understand your true feelings about this, which is good. I know you and I have discussed this a bunch on PC, but I'd like to say this in the open forum: He doesn't own you, and you owe him nothing.
Larry is right, if he is externalising his abuse and messing with you, then he is allowing himself to become an abuser. This is not the norm for CSA survivors, and he has no right to do that to you. The simple fact is that there is help there, but he may not be ready to accept that. And he may never accept it. Sometimes it is easier to wallow in self-pity than it is to pick yourself up and start the hard work of recovery.
My wife has a technique that she uses when we are fighting or when we are questioning our relationship. She "thinks single," i.e., she goes out with friends and acts and thinks as if she were single. I do the same thing. We don't go the length of affairs or anything sexual(just flirting), and we don't have an open marriage, but we find that the change of perspective has been a huge help to our understanding of ourselves and our relationship. By "Thinking single" we come to terms with what we are really seeking in our relationships, and that helps us work through issues in our relationship with one-another.
I suggest that on your upcoming trip, you try the same thing and "think single." At the very least, you will come to a better understanding of what you are looking for in a relationship. And then, if you find that these needs are not being met by your boyfriend, you have something to talk to him about.
Iwanttohelphim
Registrant
Gosh Indy, I have no advice or comment because I am sort of where you are in a way- as you know. I just wanted to say I am sending support. I know how hard this is. The questions you are asking yourself are really painful.
Hugs
Hugs
Iwanttohelphim
Registrant
How are you doing today Indy?
I read your last post again and I could have written it a few months ago...I know just how you feel.
Especially the part about being human and being held to a higher standard than that. It's not easy to communicate with someone who has expectations and a certain set of rules (which change moment to moment) about how they will listen, how they can be spoken to, how we are allowed to feel, to react and to respond, while they are allowed to be just as they are beacuse they have "reasons". The double standard is infuriating. The non acceptance is unliveable. The idea that we are not allowed to not know or have a bad day ourselves is unrealistic.
I think it has to do with trust ultimately, they are looking for signs- early warning signs - of danger. At least that's what I have been told by others and remember from my own experience.
Unfortunately, you can't have a pertnership like his. It's not possible without ultimately sacrificing yourself and the relationship as a whole in the long run.
As you know, I don't have an answer about this because I have asked you all what you think a person can do to get to a place where communication can take place on a mutual level.
I just know you are hurting and confused and I wanted to say I understand why and say again hat I am thinking about you.
I think Africa sounds like a wonderful idea. I think the time and space might offer you some healing and some perspective. I hope it gives you a chance to live again- without the shadow of CSA for a while- to be you again. You deserve it.
hugs
Bunny
I read your last post again and I could have written it a few months ago...I know just how you feel.
Especially the part about being human and being held to a higher standard than that. It's not easy to communicate with someone who has expectations and a certain set of rules (which change moment to moment) about how they will listen, how they can be spoken to, how we are allowed to feel, to react and to respond, while they are allowed to be just as they are beacuse they have "reasons". The double standard is infuriating. The non acceptance is unliveable. The idea that we are not allowed to not know or have a bad day ourselves is unrealistic.
I think it has to do with trust ultimately, they are looking for signs- early warning signs - of danger. At least that's what I have been told by others and remember from my own experience.
Unfortunately, you can't have a pertnership like his. It's not possible without ultimately sacrificing yourself and the relationship as a whole in the long run.
As you know, I don't have an answer about this because I have asked you all what you think a person can do to get to a place where communication can take place on a mutual level.
I just know you are hurting and confused and I wanted to say I understand why and say again hat I am thinking about you.
I think Africa sounds like a wonderful idea. I think the time and space might offer you some healing and some perspective. I hope it gives you a chance to live again- without the shadow of CSA for a while- to be you again. You deserve it.
hugs
Bunny
indy--
I believe that many survivors (and probably a lot of people in general) get stuck in a loop when it comes to relating to others-- they only "know" so many scenarios for how a relationship can be and they choose relationships, or try to fit relationships, into one of those scripts.
From the interactions you describe here, it seems that he has a real need to express to you that you are bullying, accusing, manipulative, etc.-- that you push him out of his comfort zone and demand more than he wants to give.
I think you have to assume that on some level, these things are true for him. That doesn't mean that you are intentionally making it this way-- it means that it's somehow familiar or important to him, to have a relationship in his life where the other person is like this, and for whatever reason, you're it.
I agree with iwanttohelphim that it's about trust-- the survivors inability to trust himself (or the people he relates to) to do things differently and break the old abusive patterns. It's also partly about what Larry is saying-- there is an original someone in his life-- not you-- who he's really saying all of that stuff to. You are a safe substitute for the original someone.
It's possible that your actual personality-- your independence and ability to express your own needs, even your active involvement and willingness to make the relationship such a priority-- contributes to his ability to cast you in this role.
The question is, how do you get yourself out of this rigid pattern and develop a friendship that is not based on the old abusive script... without effacing yourself and those aspects of who you really are, that allowed him to "cast" you in the first place?
I believe that many survivors (and probably a lot of people in general) get stuck in a loop when it comes to relating to others-- they only "know" so many scenarios for how a relationship can be and they choose relationships, or try to fit relationships, into one of those scripts.
From the interactions you describe here, it seems that he has a real need to express to you that you are bullying, accusing, manipulative, etc.-- that you push him out of his comfort zone and demand more than he wants to give.
I think you have to assume that on some level, these things are true for him. That doesn't mean that you are intentionally making it this way-- it means that it's somehow familiar or important to him, to have a relationship in his life where the other person is like this, and for whatever reason, you're it.
I agree with iwanttohelphim that it's about trust-- the survivors inability to trust himself (or the people he relates to) to do things differently and break the old abusive patterns. It's also partly about what Larry is saying-- there is an original someone in his life-- not you-- who he's really saying all of that stuff to. You are a safe substitute for the original someone.
It's possible that your actual personality-- your independence and ability to express your own needs, even your active involvement and willingness to make the relationship such a priority-- contributes to his ability to cast you in this role.
The question is, how do you get yourself out of this rigid pattern and develop a friendship that is not based on the old abusive script... without effacing yourself and those aspects of who you really are, that allowed him to "cast" you in the first place?