.

[jacobtk]

.

 

[Lloydy]

Jake

choice is the illusion of control.

Interesting...
But using the same words I feel that when I was being abused I was in a position where -
"the illusion of choice was my control"

I was groomed to believe that the abuse was "my choice" - I was put in a position whereby I made the first moves and asked them for sex. ( although initially that wasn't the case ) So I spent the majority of the four years under the illusion that I was doing what I wanted and I was in control.
I wasn't, but I only realise that now.

Moving on 45 years I have removed and destroyed the "illusions" and have "control of my choices"
Which is how I ended up here -

but if our previous choices were merely manipulations, how are our new ones not?

We need to understand fully the way we were manipulated by our abusers, destroy the illusions that we've lived with for so long, then we can make our choices on our terms.

Dave

 

[Wuamei]

...choice is the illusion of control.
[/QB]

Jake, that is the conclusion the writers of the matrix came to.

I prefer the conclusion Neo came to.

Not to worry about whether or not my choices are an illusion or somehow predetermined or whatever (which for the record I don't believe), but to make the choices I make knowing why I've made them which makes them my choices I think.

...this is something that a lot of you guys have said time and time again. we blame ourselves. we fool ourselves into believing we chose to do this or chose to do that when we were really being manipulated to do by some outside force. however, the concept is a little deeper than that. because afterwards, we believe that we can choose what happens next. but if our previous choices were merely manipulations, how are our new ones not?[/QB]

Yes I fooled myself; but it started with others fooling me & teaching me to fool myself.

So I must unlearn what I learned from my perps. And I can. I can learn to "choose what happens next."

My "choices" earlier in life were often not even choices but just things imposed upon me, even more than "mere manipulations." More & more I was able to make choices even thru the manipulations.

I just don't think that the fact that the choices were manipulated means they weren't my choices. Many people manipulated or affected my choices in many ways. If they weren't my choices then whose were they?

My choices may be affected & manipulated but they are still my choices.

At least its my choice to believe that!

we say we make a choice to try to deny the fact we're a) animals, b) driven by instincts, and c) feel helpless about our lack of control over our environment.[/QB]

Jake, I make the choice to deny that those are facts, at least inevitable or brute facts:

a) I'm more than an animal, I'm a human being.

b) I have instincts but I'm driven if anything by
emotions, logic, intuition, and spirit.

c) Yes sometimes I feel very helpless about my lack of control over my environment. But I've had enuf control over it to know that lack of control is not inevitable.

...as a human being, my actions are not always my direct decision.[/QB]

Not always my direct decision. Now that I can agree with--but that's my choice!

Victor

 

[Marc]

You think as much as I do Jake... any idea how we can 'choose' to turn that off? I'm tired of it!