.

Wow! That is a really good question to ask. Where does it all end?

All I can do is answer for myself and see if this makes sense to you.

For almost 50 years, I kept pushing away the abuse. I saw what was good in me. I saw what was bad in me. And I thought, "That's just the way I am because I'm me."

Then when the memories of the abuse started surfacing, when all I could see is the abuse, I looked at myself and thought, "Yes, it makes sense that I have a problem with such and such, because of the abuse." And all I see now when I see things in myself that need changing is the abuse.

But someday, someday when I'm further down the road of healing I can look at myself again and say, "I like this about me. And I like that about me. And I LOVE that thing about me. And that other thing? That's really cool too."

That, in my opinion, is where it ends. It ends with the survivor just loving himself, regardless of the abuse. It ends with the survivor loving himself just because he is himself.

That's my goal!

Take care,

Jasper

 

[medicb4]

Originally posted by Soccer Kid:
You know...I was thinking about it today. Maybe I should just warn now about a possible trigger, but I was thinking...abuse is so amazing. Not in a good way...but in a powerful way.

My wife is deeply involved in Raiki and Tai Chi / Chi Gong. She just came back from a Raiki workshop where she was an interpreter for the master (and had therefore open access to him). She said nothing of her background but has had many comments about her that are applicable. The most moving one (for me) was this.

They asked each participant to take along a picture of someone that would be sent "distance healing". She took a picture of her as a 6 year old - In Raiki there is no cronological / spatial difference with distance healing. The master came with a comment (without knowing about this) {I am paraphrasing what my wife told me so if it doesn't sound Master-like then it is ME}
"I find it odd that people wish to send Raiki forwards and backwards in time to specific events. Events both good and bad...in any period of time create the Person that IS."

Originally posted by Soccer Kid:
It's strange how such a simple act of reaching out and physically touching another person can cause the problems we go through on a daily basis.

OTOH Touch can be deeply healing. I have never been much for the whole Yin & Yang - that is my wife's "thing" BUT humans are a physical animal. (run on sentence warning) As we have learnt in our process just the act of my wife holding my index finger when she is having an anxiety attack allows her to feel my "love", lets her know she is not alone, allows her to have physical integrity (hugging & spooning don't work oddly enough), allows me to feel like I am "helping" & part of the process instead of a passive observer.

Originally posted by Soccer Kid:
The mind games...the sick twisted mind games you play as a kid. The fear, the emotions, the voices, the dreams, the nighmares and night sweats...my God where does it all end? At what point do you say "This is just the way I am!"

If you are comfortable with the things you named then by all means accept them - but I am, purely as an amateur psychologist on the internet - going to hop right out there and say you aren't comfortable.

Finding *YOUR* comfort level with the baggage you have is a lifelong quest. I thought I had labled and stored my fully identified and cataloged baggage.

But BZZZZT!!! it's back.

It is back to the extent that I have come to MS, sought out a shrink of my own (one from the free healthcare system, my wife gets the one that takes 800 a session) and have come into a phase of quasi-depression that my wife can't fully deal with herself (i.e. I would love to just be held, but she can't do it).

How I deal with all these things will continue to form me as a person. It is no less "Live like you were dying" than if I had cancer.

 

[Bobby]

SK, With questions like this I don't read the other replies until after I write because I know they will influence me. You have hit a nerve with me, however. I don't know if it's a universal question, but it's a question I ask myself every day. Can I blame my entire being on my SA?

Obviously I can't, but I think a lot of who I am must have been shaped by it. I share so many things with the men here...so many character traits, that it's amost impossible for me not to come to the conclusion that SA is an amazingly powerful influence on it's victims.

When I first found this site, I compared it to the the story of "The Ugly Duckling". I had at last found "the swans". All my life I had felt "different" and didn't sort of fit. I had these traits that didn't quite work and I didn't know why. I didn't understand me. I was so normal in so many ways and then there were these parts of me that didn't make any sense. Suddenly, there were all of these guys who had so many of the same traits. There was instant recognition. There was instant understanding. I truly was a "swan". Now being a swan is not always a great thing, but finding your flock (or whatever you call a herd of swans) and being welcomed by it,(and accepted and loved and cared about and all of that amazing stuff that we found when we got here) is always good no matter who you are. In fact, all of my memories are repressed ones, and, when I get those moments of doubting them (which is about 85% of the time), it is the fact that I am absolutely, positively just like everyone else who comes here that sways me towards believing. It just all fits.

Now, either we all were shaped/influenced/changed by sexual abuse, or 2500 guys who either knew they were abused or thought they were abused found this site by accident and were very surprised that they had so very much in common...I think, too much in common to be a coincidence.

Where does it end? I don't know. I know that there are traits that I have that don't have anything to do with my SA...good and bad. There are family traits that are way too recognizable to blame on SA. And I don't think that I got only bad traits from my SA. One of the hardest things for me to admit to myself is that there are a great many positive traits that we all share here. I prefer to think of them as not a good trait that came from the SA, but rather a strength that we all had to have/develop to become a survivor of SA, (splitting hairs, maybe, but for me, some important hairs to split) because we do all share some amazing strengths. Did we have those before SA and they helped us get through it, or did our getting through it force us to develop those qualities?

I really think that eventually I'm going to have to say "to hell with it" and just look at who I am and what I am and know that I have to deal with life from that perspective and pack my bags and move on. And it won't matter exactly which traits came from where...they will all be me and they will all be my strengths and my weaknesses. I don't think I'll ever stop wondering, though, if this or that trait came from the SA. So, I don't think it ever "ends" entirely. I think we just "survive" it. That's what we've been doing all our lives. We had to have some amazing strengths to do that. On my good days, I'm very proud of those. A really good question: "Where does it all end?" Thank you for asking it. It made me think. Bobby

 

[Sinking]

Hi Soccer Kid - I think the answer is....sorry...it never ends. When we are abused, especially as children, the abuse has a profound affect in forming who we would be in the future.

We were hurt, betrayed, manipulated, most often, by those who should have been caring for us, protecting us. My parents beat me and berated me because they loved me, or so they said. And it hurt them more than it hurt me, or so they said.

My teacher and the counselor and the brother of the headmaster and the swim coach all sexually abused me because they wanted to feel good, they couldn't have cared less about how it was affecting me. They all claimed to care about me, some of them bought me things, gave me money. They all made me keep secrets. And this is how we learn about love and caring, totally skewed but how were we to know any different?

So I think it's not so much about the touch, the physical act itself. I think it has more to do with the betrayal of trust, the betrayal of power and control. The misuse of love and affection.

My parents created a victim who was then vulnerable to predators outside of the home. And, as many of us know, we might as well have had VICTIM stamped on our foreheads.

Having come to terms with much of my past through therapy and reading and introspection I have gained some level of self-esteem. I see now that I am a good person, a good father, finally a good husband, a good cook, a good friend, a good gardener, a good business man. This is not to pat myself on the back but, until recently, I absolutely hated myself and everything about me. That hatred only happened because of the way I was treated as a child.

If I had been brought up the way my daughter is being raised, my life would have been very different. I was capable of so much more, but was held back because of my poor self-image. In my mind I was worthless and would never amount to anything. My mother told me that. I believed her and set forth to proving her right even though I fought it all the way. That's complex, I know. Somewhere deep inside I knew she was not right. So I tried to do the right thing all of my life but sabotaged every success I achieved. It was a constant struggle that I was not consciously aware of. I don't do that so much anymore.

My daughter, on the other hand, knows how much she is loved, in the proper way. We give her positive reinforcement. We never raise a hand to her, we barely raise our voices. We have guidelines and limits. She knows she is safe in our home and that we will do all we can to protect her from harm. As a result, she has great self confidence. At nine years old, she already sees a future for herself. Her teacher calls her a role model for the other students. And all of this is directly related to how she is being raised. You and I weren't so fortunate.

So we take what we've been handed and work with what we've got. It's more of a challenge for us than for people who had a healthy childhood. Ironically though, the things that beat us down as kids, the things that destroyed our trust and innocence and self-images make us stronger in the end. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to survive. And we are all survivors here, for now and for the remainder of our lives.

Sorry this was so long-winded, thanks for sticking it out. Peace - John

 

[bkeithb]

SK, a very good set of questions, indeed.

I am just beginning this journey of recovery. I am making real progress! Feels great!

But I am also questioning this. My questions are "Has the SA made me 'me?'" ... "Is the SA 'the' shaping influence in my life? ... or merely one of many?"

As I come to grips with the SA and its effects, I'm coming to realize that it has shaped me in ways that or too numerable to mention. It is staggering to see common character traits in myself compared with others on this site. The effects are real, tragic, but can be overcome or at least minimized in life.

I do not know where it all ends, I'm afraid. But having shared with my wife, I'm ready now to launch out in faith and do what needs to be done to get better. Not sure what all that is ... but I'm ready.

Let's keeping looking for the light at the end of the tunnel, brothers. The end must be in sight!

 

[healing_inside]

Sk,

Thanks 4 the topic.

bKeithb, I am there with u, its gonna be hard but I sort of see the next step after I take the previous one. Really scarry but everything we have been through so y not add it to the scary shelf.

Healing_Inside

 

[sophiesdad]

It's true that we can carelessly use CSA as an excuse, but I think the majority of us don't do that. However, the CSA is an indirect effect on everything in our lives. And, there IS no end to it. I used to think that, "Ok, if I forgive my abusers,then life will go on and I'll be "normal" once again." Not so.

I have been in therapy for 30 years now. If I were to keep a journal and look at myself 30 years ago, yes I have changed dramatically to the better. Am I where I want to be? Absolutely not.

I attended a wedding yesterday of one of our friends' daughter and I sang at the service. I remember sitting there and looking at the whole family.... they are such happy people despite some incredible odds that they have faced over the years... one has gone blind from macular degeneration, one has survived testicular cancer, the oldest parents are in failing health, one with Alzheimers, and the list goes on and on with the tribulations they have endured. Yet, they all have some sense of peace about them, and a genuine happiness inside.

I was so jealous - jealous and angry at the fact that because of what happened to me, I am forever scarred and I will NEVER be able to go back and change the past. Had I been a "normal" kid, who knows? I may have grown up to be a famous musician, or actor. But life dealt me a very poor hand. Yes, I can rise above most of it, but there are still things that will hold me back. And the thought of that hurts.

I often compare our recovery to peeling an onion. There are many layers to be uncovered and in the process we shed some tears. Do I think that I'll ever get to the middle? Probably at the moment of my death, when I'm going through my entire life in a flash I will suddenly have an epiphany. I can only try to live my life the best I can and somehow manage to bring a little joy to those around me - especially those younger than I - I will have accomplished greatness if I can make just one other person's life a little better. That's every parent's hope for their children (well, most parents...).

Is it depressing to think that there is no end? Certainly... but it's up to each of us to change our attitude and fill with determination that we will do and become the best we are capable of being which is what most people hope for. And when I get down, I look at those less fortunate than I - but for the grace of God, I could be homeless and wandering the streets with psychiatric disorders. I could be a starving child in Eastern Africa. I could be a political prisoner thrown in the dungeons, forgotten by society.

I could be the Count of Monte Cristo, framed, beaten to near death and starving. But unlike him, my best revenge is to live the best life that I can despite my abusers.

 

[medicb4]

Originally posted by sophiesdad:
Is it depressing to think that there is no end? Certainly... but it's up to each of us to change our attitude and fill with determination that we will do and become the best we are capable of being which is what most people hope for. And when I get down, I look at those less fortunate than I - but for the grace of God, I could be homeless and wandering the streets with psychiatric disorders. I could be a starving child in Eastern Africa. I could be a political prisoner thrown in the dungeons, forgotten by society.

Eloquently put. On top of these things to be thankful for (and the list can be made VERY long) one should try to keep in mind that Life is a journey. Not a destination.

Peace

Scott

 

[Leosha]

A few thoughts on this.

Anyone who would use CSA as an excuse, if they had not been abused, would find something else. Someone who is seeking excuses for their behavior, rather then possible explanation for it and taking responsibility for it, they will find them if they do not already exist.

I think there are many things we ask, and wonder how they would be different if we had not been abused. And we always assume we would be better people without it. I am not saying I enjoyed my abuse or advocate for it! But, I think if I had not been abused, perhaps I would have been a total a**hole. I can be rather aggressive, pushy, obnoxious, rude, arrogant. Those behaviors are all tempered by a certain sensitivity and compassion that I think was brought on by the abuse. Now, would I have the positive qualities if I hadn't been abused? Perhaps. But perhaps not, and I would just be that a**hole that I seem to have a tendencey toward.

Where does it end? It ends with us. It ends with us surviving, and finding a decent life for ourself. Making a decent life for ouself. Stopping the cycle of abuse, and becoming the good strong men we are meant to be.

Leosha