1in6 lie/agenda about orientation and abuse

sardonis

New Registrant
Thank you for posting this, @sardonis

To your knowledge, has there been any such genetic study of other species (e.g., bonobos) that exhibit unforced wild-type physical aspects of SSA?
I'm sorry, I personally do not know if similar studies have been conducted on other animals. This study used a technique known as GWAS (genome wide association study), which is fairly recent and requires a large sample to give accurate results (and also requires knowledge of the complete genome of a species). I think bonobo genome was sequenced very recently (2012) and it would probably take a long time before enough samples can be collected to actually conduct such a study on animals.
 

sardonis

New Registrant
I don't think anyone is promoted that there is a gay gene. There are a lot of factors that shape sexuality. It could be related to hormones in utero.
This study isn't about a single gene, per se. It says that the entirety of the human genome (including any genes that could lead to hormonal variation) only accounts for upto 25% of your sexuality (or less). Of course, that means, hypothetically, that there are other factors (but they're not scientifically proven one way or the other). It's just speculation. The new study just shows that the old studies, that motivated the belief that sexuality is genetically determined, no longer hold up. This study rules out a lot of genetic factors (as well as factors that are directly or indirectly linked to genetics).
 
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eltoro65

Registrant
Read the quote again carefully:
"There are different theories about how sexual orientation develops, but experts in human sexuality do not believe that sexual abuse or premature sexual experiences play a significant role."
They is an acknowledgement here that sexual abuse does play a role in how a person's sexual orientation develops. If victims/survivors are upset by this it may be because they feel sexual abuse played a significant role. I'm guessing many are responding to the quote negatively as a result of distorted thinking caused by having been sexually abused.
 
eltoro65
I don’t know what qualifies a person to be called an “expert in human sexuality” and it does not matter.
I am an expert at being who I am. I am unique, as is every person. Yet we do share common characteristics.
In my case, being sexually abused/raped as a child played not only a significant role, but a primary, causative role in what can be called my “sexual orientation”.
Perhaps I am unique and/or there are few others to whom this would apply; I can only say this has been my lived experience and, as such, I am an expert. I am not saying this for any reason except to testify to this truth. In that it may not apply to others is no reason for those others or those who believe those others to take exception to my experience or to disbelieve me.

Background:
I am 67 years old. I have been married to my wife for over 42 years. I will say I have always thought the sight of a “fit” man was attractive. I have for most of my life felt that my body was not attractive. I believe part of my feeling unattractive was due to what the man who raped me said prior to and during the rape. The reality is that he was lustful and that is what his words meant, but as a child I did not understand that. In addition to the man raping 5 year old me, I was also molested by another man and teenagers. The rape was a horrendous, terrifying experience. The molestation was one where I was made to feel “special” even though I was too young to have any idea of what he was doing.

Despite all of that, as an adolescent and young adult, my fantasies and desires about sex were heterosexual. I had what I would call a “healthy” sex life with my wife for at least the first 13 years of our marriage.
Then I began to recall first the violent rape that I experienced. And subsequently, I began to recall having been used by my mother for her own sexual gratification. It was the recollection of these depraved acts by my mother that came to fill me with revulsion toward any thought of heterosexual activity. Thus, the only “sexuality” remaining within me was either asexual or homosexual. Couple that with the fact that I now realize my rapist’s repeated comments about my body were because he was turned on by my body. (The woman who brought me to him said “he only wants to see your hiney” - this was a lie, being as he raped me) and he repeatedly made remarks about my “ass” - this realization, coupled with remarks throughout my life as having a “bubble butt” and not knowing this was attractive, has caused me to want to feel/be attractive to men. But I have never acted on this.

That is a synopsis of my story. I must decide to make the best of this life that has been given to me and to share the love within me with my family and our world. That is the reason I write this. My story may have implications for others, I don’t know.

This story of my life is not one I talk about much outside of this website, but my family now knows about it – I only this year that I told my two sons and two siblings after having lived with the recall of these events for almost 30 years.

I do know that I had a healthy heterosexual life (even though I had what I now know is called “SSA”) prior to recall of these trauma; and now I am unable to have sex with a woman, nor do I want to because I have learned that I cannot overcome the thoughts that fill me with nausea when I do because of the triggered memories. I want to be desired by men and think I would "enjoy" the "sex" and the relationship but would never betray my wife or my family in such a way. However, had I had these memories prior to having been married, things would have been different and I could have been what our society calls "gay". It was not a choice for me to be this way now nor would it have been a choice then. It is, and would have been the way things are due to circumstances outside of my control.

I think that is the point. Whether a person is "born gay" or "acts out" via same sex experiences due to childhood abuse or whatever - is immaterial - he is incapable of changing it (i.e. incapable of changing the "desire" but I can control my behavior)* - and - as far as determining that person's worth as a human being. We are all precious. We need to believe that and not impose our beliefs upon others as we have not walked a mile in their shoes. Even though we are all "survivors" on this website, our experiences, although similar, are not identical, nor are we identical - but by virtue of our common experience of having had our bodies used by people with power over us, shoud (I hope) fill us with empathy if not understanding for one another.

*These words help me with these thoughts/desires:
“You are a sacred image of the Divine, you are a co-creator with God, so respect your own embodiment - and the sacred embodiment of the other.
As Paul speaks his truth : 1 Corinthians 3: 16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you ? The temple of God which you are, is holy.” -
 
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I must decide to make the best of this life that has been given to me and to share the love within me with my family and our world.
I read every word and identified with my own struggle to make sense of all of it and am coming to the ultimate conclusion that you are - i can choose to be loving and also live with what happened to me. I can still have angry or sad or confused or unresolved mins/days/hours and still focus on my ability to love even in those times and even though i didn't necessarily feel the love that I needed growing up.

This is new for me. I've been angry and trying to figure it out thinking that if i could figure it out, i could go back in time and do it over. I didn't know that i was doing this but i was. The figuring it out process has helped me understand and has been vital but now it's in the acceptance phase and cutting my losses phase and being open to being loving for first time in adult life.

A lot of my ssa feelings have been lifted because I've dug into them to understand them but i can never change the fact that my first experience with sexuality with another person was an assault when i was still a boy. My body has memories that i cannot will away. I am of the mindset that i can learn new associations with my body and sex and trust and vulnerability. I've also spent time and energy understanding what it is in certain men that i "sexualized" as parts of me that i couldn't own and needed to project into others and then sexualize as a way that i could sort of almost own those rejected parts of myself. I never saw myself as a whole man until recently and even having old ssa thoughts or feelings recur no longer makes me question my wholeness or being fully a man. And to wrap this up, being fully a man means i can be vulnerable, that I'm not a boy and that being loving and strong are some ultimate masculine qualities that I'm grateful I've been naturally endowed with just by being male (and/or human).
 
@EdfromNYC - this is some of the most compassionate (and self-compassionate) writing I've seen from you. Bravo.

Edited by Modteam.
EVeryone, please refrain from confrontational questions or statements. We're all here to do the best we can as we move forward in our recovery. If you have a concern about someone's post, please notify the moderators using the Report feature, and it will be looked into. Thank you.
 
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being fully a man means i can be vulnerable, that I'm not a boy and that being loving and strong are some ultimate masculine qualities that I'm grateful I've been naturally endowed with just by being male (and/or human).
Your survival of CSA proves you are strong.

Your commitment to love and willingness to be vulnerable, proves you are loving, whole and fully a man.

Love can be a feeling, but love is not always a feeling, it is a commitment to do what is right, what is best for the person you love and to put the needs of that person above your own when appropriate – and vice versa - it is mutual give and take. Living in love is a lifetime figuring out process which, I think, is harder for survivors of CSA and those who did not feel the love they needed growing up. I identify with this very much.

I admire your courage and strength and wish you love and peace always, especially as you (and all of us) continue to heal. Your posts have been very validating for me and I thank you.
 
Strangeways I know the question was not posed to me, but I do not hate gays.

Some people who identify as gay may have been born gay. However, for me, the sexual abuse I experienced as a child definitely impacted me in
ways that have influenced my thinking and sexuality. Stating this truth, that CSA impacted my sexuality, does not make me a person who hates gays, it makes me a person who identifies with and has compassion for gays. By the way, I do not like these labels because we are all people and, as such, have equal dignity regardless of who we are attracted to or why we are attracted to them.

I understand that there are people who say that if sexuality was impacted by CSA, it can be “fixed” – but I don’t say that because no one “fixed” me – my sexuality was impacted by the recall of the CSA I experienced and it is not changing. For someone to try to change me when I cannot change myself is absurd, and it is ignorant & callous to think that they can change another person’s sexuality. I cannot unremember what I now remember – and I don’t want to – It is important to me to testify to the truth of what I experienced and to testify also as to the impact it had on me – including my sexuality. I do believe that life experiences can make our sexuality "fluid" (for lack of a better word) – but I don’t think it is something we can will.

I don't think attacking fellow survivors is being empathetic or kind and I think it is very sad that you cannot recommend MaleSurvivor to gay friends - and I say that sincerely. This should be a place for inclusion and encouragement.

Stating that one's CSA influenced one's sexuality is not gay bashing. I am saying it influenced mine; and that is not intended to hurt anyone in anyway. The fact that others have used this fact as reasoning to justify trying to make "gay" people "straight" is ignorant and callous as I have said.
 
This page is FINALLY taking a thread that started deplorable and ignorant in the realm of accepted psychological thought regarding trauma into a healing and supportive environment. THANK YOU for the change.
 
I stand 100% behind every word I've ever written.

This seems trollish and on a survivor board and in a sensitive subforum about sexual identity issues. That's not cool.

There are so many buzzwords in your comment that i read on Twitter every day that I've become immune to it.

I don't hate anyone especially someone that i don't know. Your opinion doesn't mean much to me. I hope you find some peace of mind that doesn't make you see the world the way that you.

I am so grateful that I've pursued the SSA way of looking at things while also dealing with csa and I've only gotten healthier, saner, happier/more access to feelings and more connected especially to my own sense of self. For me, it has been a godsend. Many men have reached out to me in encouragement, support and asking for support. I'm grateful my experience has been helpful to others and I'm only in better shape to help others especially now that I don't react to silliness (silly on the surface but full of misdirected pain beneath).

I'm sorry that you feel the way that you do but I wish you the best in continuing to heal.
 
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Stating that one's CSA influenced one's sexuality is not gay bashing. I am saying it influenced mine; and that is not intended to hurt anyone in anyway. The fact that others have used this fact as reasoning to justify trying to make "gay" people "straight" is ignorant and callous as I have said.
Gay-bashing isn't the issue here. It is trying to bash anyone who discusses CSA and SSA. Case in point.

I'm glad others have found help here and have experienced similar journeys like mine. We don't have to have the same journey. Respect is nice though.

Fair moderation would be nice too but maybe in the next life.;)
 
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Gay-bashing isn't the issue here. It is trying to bash anyone who discusses CSA and SSA. Case in point.

I'm glad others have found help here and have experienced similar journeys like mine. We don't have to have the same journey. Respect is nice though.
Hello, EdfromNYC

I have found help here and, from what I know, have experienced similar (but not identical) journeys like yours; and I thank you for that. I agree we need to respect each other and, while you did not say it, I, too, have felt disrespected and disregarded and was astounded and deeply hurt by the unprovoked attack(s). Sadly, I have seen that you have been treated in similar fashion and I agree that it is not cool.

I am so grateful that I've pursued the SSA way of looking at things while also dealing with csa and I've only gotten healthier, saner, happier/more access to feelings and more connected especially to my own sense of self. For me, it has been a godsend. Many men have reached out to me in encouragement, support and asking for support. I'm grateful my experience has been helpful to others and I'm only in better shape to help others especially now that I don't react to silliness (silly on the surface but full of misdirected pain beneath)
EdfromNYC, you have helped me and I am grateful. Stating the truth of my experience was not in any way meant to disparage someone else; and I am presuming that is true of you as well. I think the intent of the initial thread, without rehashing all of the posts therein, was/is to declare that CSA does (at least for me, and therefore I presume potentially for others) play a significant role in "sexuality" however, it appears that we do not all define these words in the same way. My point is simply that, in my case, had my recall of the CSA occured at an earlier point in my life; I may have very well led a life as a "gay" man; thus the CSA played a significant role contrary the quote below:

"There are different theories about how sexual orientation develops, but experts in human sexuality do not believe that sexual abuse or premature sexual experiences play a significant role."

EdfromNYC I think that some of the people who have attacked/bashed you or me for discussing CSA and the link to SSA (as demonstrated by my lived experience, and I presume yours - but I do not presume to speak for you) are doing so because they are "triggered" because some people have used this link of SSA to CSA as a justification for trying to "fix" "broken" people - and thus potentially inflicting further harm by imposing goals that the person is not able to meet. That is not to say that thinking about CSA as a cause of SSA is not helpful for some, in that it can help us to process what we have experienced and to "put it in its place", but, for me, understanding CSA as a cause for impacting my sexuality does not "fix" me, I am still repulsed by even the thought of sex with a woman and this is not something I chose and I don't think it is fixable without erasing these memories from my consciousness. I realize that I am probably in a minority of survivors who was abused by both men and women, and have been thus impacted differently in some ways - still we are all survivors; and we should strive to listen and respect others.

Nothing I have read from you EdfomNYC ever made me think you hated anyone - on the contrary, stating what you have lived has been helpful for me. The only ones that I have hated have been those who raped me, but, with God's help, I have learned/am learning to let that go. That is not to say that I have not been hurt by others, including others who attacked me for stating what I have lived - but I believe those doing the attacking don't understand or misinterpret what I've said or intended.

I never meant to hurt anyone or disbelieve anyone by anything I have said on this site; but I understand how some have been hurt but that hurt does not justify hurting or attacking me or others. I think this "discussion" has illuminated the topic, and for many, including me, that "illumination" has been difficult and painful - but apparently needed. I hope we can proceed with the mutual goal of stating the truth of our lived experience without others being offended or disbelieving us. For me, CSA did play a significant role in my SSA. "I am no better - and neither are you" Let's work together to enhance our mutual understanding.

This site is the only "place" I know of where we can share our experiences with fellow survivors and the world.
Our sharing should be based upon
Truth
The world does not yet fully understand or accept some truths such as:
Males, boys and men, are raped and otherwise sexually abused.
Women can and do rape children.
The impact upon the survivor is great.
Perpetrators commonly deny what they've done. Some may consciously repress what they've done.
Survivors commonly repress the memories of these trauma as it is too painful to bear.
Survivors often feel shame and are often "attacked" by those who don't understand or don't believe.
Survivors shame is unwarranted, but, nonetheless real.
Survivors desire to avoid being rejected or attacked or perceived as less of a man causes them to stay quiet.

I have learned a few things from this site; and sadly one of those things is that we are not all the same and that in addition to wanting to proclaim the truth of my experience to the world without feeling shamed or rejected or attacked, I want to share it with other survivors without being rejected by them too.
 
Hello again, EdfromNYC

My posts are often too long because I try to give background as to why I am saying what I am saying in the hope of enhancing understanding on the part of the reader. Sometimes maybe I am too wordy and cause confusion or misunderstanding instead of clarity.

But I don't want the following point to get lost due to the length of my posts in this thread: The abuse I suffered as a child has impacted my life significantly in many ways, and one of those ways has caused sexual identity issues for me. This reality has given me nothing but empathy for people who "identify" as any of the various "sexualities" including "gay". I did not just feel this, I believed this before I ever heard of this site and still believe it because I have lived it, as I have now many times tried my best to explain.

I feel compelled to add that my faith in God as Love, not as judge, not as a God of exclusion as many who profess faith believe, but God whose love includes all people. My faith in this God, the God of truth who will bring justice in eternity and we are to leave this justice to Him, is what has made me and kept me alive. This is why I write on these pages despite the fact that doing so often brings (unanticipated) pain. I pray we can all heal individually and collectively and sometimes that means giving each other space.

Again, EdfromNYC, I thank you for your support and encouragement and your bravery for witnessing to the truth of your experience. I am sorry that some people have attacked you for doing so.
 
EdfromNYC I think that some of the people who have attacked/bashed you or me for discussing CSA and the link to SSA (as demonstrated by my lived experience, and I presume yours - but I do not presume to speak for you) are doing so because they are "triggered" because some people have used this link of SSA to CSA as a justification for trying to "fix" "broken" people - and thus potentially inflicting further harm by imposing goals that the person is not able to meet.
I think you're being generous. I think people come onto any SSA/CSA thread to attack because they are threatened by any men talking about their orientation without following the modern script about homosexuality and how it must be discussed. Unfortunately, the moderation often supports it. I've seen disruptive MEN come into SSA/CSA threads and make accusations and create a fight situation and then moderation will come in and shut the thread down. The good thing for me is these conversations has only refined my understanding more and made me more articulate about my issues and given me the ability to sidestep the noisy disruptions without flinching or without reacting or defending.

It's still "funny" to me that a subforum, literally named "Sexual Identity Issues" on a website for and by male survivors has these issues where men can't work stuff out around their sexual identity issues for fear some other men might attack.

But you know what? I've had to burn off my edge while I've been here and others burn off their edges too. It's about continuing to do the work and continuing to grow and get better. I've gotten better and so has my ability to express myself without being so aggressive or afraid. Both have blunted my edge and I couldn't have done that had I not had this venue to work that off. Based on that, I want others to have the same opportunity to work their stuff out even attacking sometimes. Everything I've done here over the years has helped and that includes getting into "fights" on here. Many come here really angry and hurt - I did - and how that plays out is different for everyone.
 
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I feel compelled to add that my faith in God as Love, not as judge, not as a God of exclusion as many who profess faith believe, but God whose love includes all people. My faith in this God, the God of truth who will bring justice in eternity and we are to leave this justice to Him, is what has made me and kept me alive. This is why I write on these pages despite the fact that doing so often brings (unanticipated) pain. I pray we can all heal individually and collectively and sometimes that means giving each other space.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I could write more but i had a childhood idea of God that was a judging God but I don't know exactly how or why but my perception of God changed this summer to a God of love and truth. I have used the word "God" less as I don't understand what that power is but I do know that my CSA is merely a blip on the radar of this universe and to start to change my perspective on it - if this power can create a universe, it is also powerful enough to take on my CSA and do with it what it will and I don't have to be the one to "figure it out" or "make it go away" or master my knowledge of it. Understanding that "loving" right into the heart of matters is what allows for a type of change I didn't know was possible. But it does mean pain. Which leads to relief. But often pain first. A different kind of pain than being angry.

I write a lot, too. Your writing is clear and thorough. I appreciate it.
 
I think you're being generous. I think people come onto any SSA/CSA thread to attack because they are threatened by any men talking about their orientation without following the modern script about homosexuality and how it must be discussed.
Perhaps, it’s because many of us were raised under the old script of homosexuality; and were taught to hate ourselves and that we were evil and choosing to be homosexual. Any perceived return to that is triggering. Most gay people I know are accepting of be being SSA and living as a heterosexual; even though I would consider myself gay at times. They celebrate my life choices. At the same time I celebrate theirs...
 
Any perceived return to that is triggering.
It needs to be stressed, it seems. This is explicitly a Sexual Identity Issues subforum. Therefore, men who have been abused who come here, come to discuss sexual identity issues as a result of their CSA. Many will not discuss their orientation in ways that are politically correct nor should they be. They are personally confusing issues that are messy and need to be aired out yet they are "policed" here by a few who want to come in and disrupt due to being triggered or what have you.

This is the Sexual Identity Issues subforum. It was created as an outlet to discuss sexual identity issues. It wasn't created to foster a single message. People actually disagree about orientation and CSA and triggered people shouldn't dominate because they are triggered. But it happens.

Some men will discuss things in terms that are different than mine. That's life. It's wrong to shut other survivors down - or hijack a thread with these types of discussions - when men are helping and supporting each other. This site and its members bend over backwards to watch language and still, even then, other members will chime in with attacks both aggressive and passive aggressive. I recognize it because I used to suffer the same way of trying to communicate. Maybe that's why it doesn't affect as much. I see the pain but I also know it's not as simple as being "triggered" due to old messaging.

Save the attacks for the outside world. Attacking other survivors for discussing sexual identity issues in terms that one doesn't like is just an attack on another survivor. There's no justification.
 
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