Learning to trust women

Learning to trust women
Strangeways

Strangeways

I'm trying my best to shed my negativity about women. I'm triggered when I see things that accuse all men of being horrible, abusive, and worse than women, so I am trying to give women the benefit of the doubt in the same way that I, as a man, would like to be given the benefit of the doubt.

It's difficult. I'm distrustful of women because they could baselessly accuse me of abuse. That's what my ex-wife did to me in order to control me. It wasn't true, but I thought it was. It's hard to trust a person who might automatically consider me a monster. I think this is the issue that a lot of men, even non-traumatized men, have with #MeToo. Also, of course, as my abuser was a woman, I can't help but see women as potential abusers.

I think in the same way that most men haven't been touched by trauma, most women haven't been either. Even for the worst case scenario that I've seen out there - 1 in 3 women are abused - that still only means 33%, which is an absolute minority of all women. So maybe 66% of women have no reason to fear or distrust men.

I also believe (maybe naively) that most women - like most men - are good and kind people who would never knowingly hurt me or anyone else.

I want to be able to keep my heart open and see the good in everyone. It's impossible to do that if I fear and distrust half of the world's population.

Is anyone else dealing with this issue? Any thoughts?
 
No holds barred, me too is bloody triggering and makes all of this difficult.

One thing I am trying to remember myself though, is that there is a huge difference between this mythical amorphous "women!" which the man haters speak of and any given actual woman I happen to meet myself.

This is probably more true for me, since my abuse was very much a public affair, and though there were several regular girls, it was more a sort of hanger on thing, so I've always had far more trouble with @Women@ on mass ((sometimes to the point of agoraphobia), than with any individual woman whom I simply treat the way I would treat a man, with respect and politeness, though I will be free to admit that if a trigger reminds me of "women!" I can run into trouble.

For example, over the weekend I was on a course for advanced stage performing. Part of this involved a discussion of physical intimacy, raising emotional pressure to the audience and on stage combat.

We were sorted into pairs according to hight, and I was opposite a lady I will call Janet (though that is not her name).

Initially I was pleased with my own progress. Our first exercise was to stand one arms length apart, close our eyes and then designate a body part of the other person to touch with one finger, Its a space and knowledge exercise intended to get us familiar with both the other person's body's spacial location, and how far away it was.

I had to designate a body part such as "left elbow", or "forehead" and then touch, then wait while Janet did the same.

This would normally be a very triggering situation for me, but I know stage performing is safe. There is a limited amount that can happen, there is a necessary physicality between performers, indeed its odd that I've played several romantic tenors in my time, but never developed any attraction for any of the ladies I was opposite since usually on stage your so concentrated on the performance and other people as fellow performers.

The finger exercise went well, something which I was pleased about, given that I'd tried a similar thing some years ago and couldn't become detached enough from my own trauma to handle it.

The second exercise was harder though.

In a flat monotone we were supposed to alternate "i love you", "I hate you" whilst increasing interaction between us. We weren't allowed to use voice or expression, raising the tempo had to be from distance and contact.

So suddenly I'm saying "I love you" to a woman and getting closer while she says "I hate you" I then put my hands on her shoulders and she says "I hate you" and flings them off.

Trigger city! I realised I was becoming tense, something which Janet saw.

I apologisedd and stood back. Oddly enough having things the other way around, me saying "I hate you" to her "I love you" didn't bother me half as much, and I know why, since so often the idea of loving someone was always! tied to disgust.

To my surprise though Janet, who didn't know my history was quite okay with my discomfort.

I told her I was having trouble, that I needed to be more ceribral, and that it wasn't her fault (she was quite nervous of the acting herself).

A second later we tried again and things worked out fine, we even ended up laughing together over this.

We then did stage combat, alternating mock punching (actually slapping hands with the victim turned side on and then the victim flattening themselves into a dive) as well as a couple of other stage violent activities, and oddly enough we became friends.

Later on when Janet was trying a Carmen aria she was a bit nervous about, I tried to be encouraging, indeed I even pointed that out that Carmen is actually a sexual predator herself (who gets a fairly extreme stabbing for her trouble).

For most of the weekend I just thought of Janet as another performer, and by the end of the weekend we were probably at least part way to becoming friends. However, on the one occasion when I felt the idea that Janet was a member of the women!" tribe who have the grudge against me, I had to consciously stop myself from considering her that way and just think of her as another performer, someone I could have fun and work with on stage.

I admit its not easy, but it is possible with enough work, indeed I have often said to my lady I have a problem with women! not with any given individual woman.

Btw, I'll also add that frankly there are some sensible women there even ones who cryticise me too, I found [This article a very encouraging read, albeit I was a little sorry that only one of the women mentioned male survivors.
 
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Luke: THANK YOU. That was very, very helpful and your distinction between "Women!" as a tribe and women as individuals is directly to the point.

I often get triggered by random women who remind me of my ex-wife, my abuser. This weekend my family and I went to a fall fair that was really crowded. I was surrounded by women - and men, and children too of course, but my poor traumatized brain only saw the women. I started to lose it. When I get that way, I have to *consciously* bring myself out of it by remembering that each of these women are individuals. None of them know me. They don't even notice me, so there's no way they are looking at me and thinking "Monster!" - and conversely, neither are they making plans to abuse me.

It's exhausting sometimes.

Thanks for sharing your detailed story. I think it's really worth getting to know women as individuals when appropriate, because the vast, vast majority of women, like men, are perfectly safe.
 
I have been there myself. Especially with crowds of women who are being rowdy, and even more especially when there is a smell of cigarette smoke, cheap perfume and female sweat.

Public triggers are really difficult for me so I definitely know what you mean, and yet the other day I saw a post by someone talking about "male privilege" which said "has any man been afraid to be alone in a dark public place just because he's a man?"

The short answer is yes.
Its unfortunately a catch twenty two, the easier it is to communicate with women on an equal level as people who just happen to be female the less these triggers tend to be an issue, but the more that society has this rabid tendency for misandry the less that becomes possible.

Luke.
 
dark empathy said:
I saw a post by someone talking about "male privilege" which said "has any man been afraid to be alone in a dark public place just because he's a man?"
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This is straight-up BS. Men get murdered and otherwise assaulted by strangers at rates far, far above women, and rates far, far, FAR above women being sexually assaulted by strangers. If anything, it's men who should be afraid of being alone in dark public places.

In keeping with the theme of the thread, though, women have been TOLD to be afraid. Men have been told specifically to NOT be afraid. It's hard for me to blame either women or men for simply living what they've been taught their entire lives. Most people fail to question these types of things.
 
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In my 50+ years of experience, the vast majority of women I've come across are manipulative and not honest.
They also tend to be irrational and do not like to take responsibility for their actions.
That doesn't mean they can't do good things or have compassion here and there, but like everyone, they are imperfect.
The problem seems to be that they typically think they are perfect.

I believe if you find one who is not these things, that you have found an exception to the rule instead of the rule.
I am always looking for exceptions to the rule. It sounds like you and Luke have found one of those, and so that should give me some hope.

Should, lol. It's hard to keep hope alive sometimes.
 
Chris, I've read of lot of what you've written on this board, and I have tremendous respect for you, your opinions, and your experience. But I think if I had the mindset that "most [insert any group of humans] are [some negative trait]" I would feel complete despair.

I used to hate women. I used to argue with feminists on the internet about gender issues. What a horrible waste of time and energy that was. No one's minds got changed, and it made me angrier, more bitter, and a worse person overall.

I choose to believe that most humans want to do the right thing, if only because it usually better benefits themselves. Maybe I am deluding myself, but I have learned that I cannot live any other way. While I have seen the worst that humanity has to offer, in my ex-wife, I have also seen the best, in my current wife, and my therapist, who is also a woman.

I wish you peace and healing.
 
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Strangeways,

Thanks for your kind words, and your observation is fair. I can only go by what has been my experience, and what I have seen, read about, other people's experiences, etc. It is just true that I have not had many good experiences with the opposite gender. I'd like to, and I keep trying, but so far a great experience with a woman has eluded me. Heck, I'll settle for a good experience.

I used to have many female friends, but they all exited my life for one reason or other. Now I have none. That seems to be the season of life that I am in now. I have joined numerous Meetup groups, but so far not much has developed. I am also in a big city where it is hard to make friends for various reasons. The social and political climate has also not helped.

Thankfully I no longer hate women. I used to. I'm not bitter like I used to be. But I do tend to see the worst of human nature, and not the best. Maybe if I am able to meet more people who are better people in general, my perspective will become more balanced. I'm all for hoping for better things.

Cheers,

Chris
 
Very difficult. First, feminists claim to speak for all women. Second, there is a trickle down effect of popular rhetoric. It is presented as an answer to concerns.

So we know this: contrary to the propaganda women can be very evil, and can be systemically supported. So how can 'women' be tr4usted.; I think A woman or a group of women can be trusted, but women cannot be trusted anymore than men can be trusted. But because there is a fear on the part of people that really acknowledging the suffering we have had will somehow diminish that of women.

I just heard a teacher saying that very thing today, and her belief that somehow shut down the victimization of women. So that' snot going to change. She's one of the most fair and decent feminists I know.

So we are alone in this. If women are decent people, it must be peculiar to the particular circumstances. Ironically, the demands of feminists that men open up cannot happen. This must be limited amongst ourselves.
 
Celtaf, I absolutely hear you. It's difficult to trust *people* for sure. We've all been burned very badly, by women of course, and some of us by men also.

I've also heard women saying that a man's pain is somehow worth much less than a woman's pain. Of course that is complete hogwash. A victim is a victim and I personally get very angry if someone dares to suggest that somehow my victimization doesn't count because of my gender. So I think we can entirely ignore those people with their ridiculous opinions.

Some feminists are obtuse, to be sure. Other feminists are not and are actually open to working alongside men to try to end victimization of all people. The issue, of course, is that if a woman calls herself a feminist, I don't know which kind she is. So the answer is to watch what she says and what she does. Anti-male feminists are rarely shy about sharing their opinions about men.

The majority of women in the US do not describe themselves as feminists at all. And women are just people, after all. Some people are trustworthy, others are not. My mindset for all people is one of implicit trust, but verification of trust.

It's natural that we, as men abused by women, are going to be distrustful of women. That's just a given. I'm saying that it's worth it to try to get over it, to rehumanize and de-demonize women. All people are pretty much the same, whatever gender they are. I had to let go of my anger in order to be free.
 
Strangeways said:
Celtaf, I absolutely hear you. It's difficult to trust *people* for sure. We've all been burned very badly, by women of course, and some of us by men also.

I've also heard women saying that a man's pain is somehow worth much less than a woman's pain. Of course that is complete hogwash. A victim is a victim and I personally get very angry if someone dares to suggest that somehow my victimization doesn't count because of my gender. So I think we can entirely ignore those people with their ridiculous opinions.

Some feminists are obtuse, to be sure. Other feminists are not and are actually open to working alongside men to try to end victimization of all people. The issue, of course, is that if a woman calls herself a feminist, I don't know which kind she is. So the answer is to watch what she says and what she does. Anti-male feminists are rarely shy about sharing their opinions about men.

The majority of women in the US do not describe themselves as feminists at all. And women are just people, after all. Some people are trustworthy, others are not. My mindset for all people is one of implicit trust, but verification of trust.

It's natural that we, as men abused by women, are going to be distrustful of women. That's just a given. I'm saying that it's worth it to try to get over it, to rehumanize and de-demonize women. All people are pretty much the same, whatever gender they are. I had to let go of my anger in order to be free.
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In the class I was in today, people generally followed feminist rotes. I'm a Christian man, do I don't want to hold malice in my heart for anyone. But I feel sad and isolated because of this. And fearful. These are all people who would form a mob against me. I must be wary and very strong in dealing with them.

The men are also a problem, virtuously speaking of how much they want to support women. Hell, my own prime minister does this.

But again, I am a Christian. I believe most people are sinners, including me, in need of Gods grace. I do not want to do nor offer anyone harm. I forgive them, but cannot trust them. I've known very few women who were constant and faithful.
 
I definitely appreciate the impulse behind inductive statements about the over all moral badness of a group of people if that group of people have been abusive towards you.

The problem is, having studdied philosophy for a long time, especially working on disability, I have seen too many occasions of group moral categorisations gone wrong. From the beliefs about dark skinned people in the passed, to the rabid disability advocates who are very quick to talk about "the able boddied order"

It never tends to work out well and just increases isolation and hatred. This is why I am getting particularly upset by the very modern tendency of dismissing anyone as "A straight white male", for example "That is a straight white male perspective", as though simply belonging to a certain gender automatically makes you a worse human being and denigrates anything you might have to say.

I had too many years of people calling me "diseased" to my face to want to inflict that on anybody else.

I admit, I've had problems with resentment too, especially when it comes to women not recognising that the traditional victorian paradigm offers several very obvious social protections to women that men do not receive, which is just another reason why the hole paradigm should be discarded, not merely that part of it which is "patriarchal"

It was for these protections that I used to long to be a woman, since it always seemed to me women got things easier, especially in terms of relationships and protection, though I now recognize that was very much a symptom of where I happened to be at the time, as well as of my abuse.

One other thing I'll say, is that I notice that the more people polarised into specific groups with rigidly defined identities, the harder it is to get any sort of actual understanding going.

i met most of my female friends and spent a considerable time at university, which is naturally an environment which promotes discussion and free thinking, especially a university the way it is in Britain where everyone lives and works on the same campus, and there are no single sex dorms or single gender interest groups or whatever. My counsellor actually once said that university was an entirely different environment to anywhere else in the world, due to everyone being out of their comfort zone, so people are naturally more accepting.

The best experiences I've had, with women and men and making friends generally have been in similar environments, for example the singing course I went on over the weekend, occasions where a bunch of people are brought together out of mutual interest with no existing social setting.

One thing I noticed when I visited my lady's family in Pennsylvania, is that there was a very strict gender divide. Not so much in terms of women always being in the kitchin and men fixing cars, more that the sort of interests men and women had and the ways they interacted were far more prescribed than I was used to.

men talked about sport and hunting and beer and home improvement, and generally didn't talk much. Women were effusive about the doings of other women, the births, marriages and family connections of their local community.

In that sort of environment, frankly I don't blaim people for seeing men and women different species, indeed if you will forgive me a slight bit of cultural bias I did notice that in America in general group identities tended to be far more rigidly defined than I was used to over here, for example a person is either a jock or a nerd, or a democrat or a republican, or indeed a man or a woman.

Of course this doesn't mean everyone constantly, or that people there weren't friendly, but I can certainly see why my lady, as a person with distinct opinions who enjoys scifi and fantasy literature, is a christian but not of the right wing rabid sort, and believes in gender equality decided to leave that environment long before I met her.

It is also in that sort of stratified environment that I can see movements like "me too" gaining some sort of support since they are basically appeals to a mob mentality.

Luke.
 
@Ceremony , I am glad you have found some people inclined to be accepting of differing positions.
One of the problems I personally have with a lot of statements I've seen from "me too" though, is that they come with a necessary sense of dismissle. For example, I recently read an article on tor.com which directedly lauded a new fantasy series for having a female lead because "Half of the world's population want to see men pwnned by a woman"

(if you don't know the word, pwn'd, is lete speak for owned, and basically means beaten and humiliated, as of losing out very badly in a computer game).

This was an article on a respected publisher's website, a place which praises their "acceptance of different voices" and yet this sort of hate speak is all too common. The term "Straight white male" is used almost as an expletive as I said above.

This is the affect of the me too movement I am seeing, basically an increased public tolerance for extreme levels of misandry, and even for violence committed against men, be that literal or actual.

It is the very same sort of automatic hate speak which uses the term "Toxic masculinity" as to refer to pretty much anything to do with men generally.

This sort of rabid factionalism is particularly urcsome for me, since as I said in another thread, I belong to a minority which pretty much everyone notices, but nobody acknowledges, is! even a minority, if we want to play minority poker I have a pretty damn strong hand, the fact though is that minority poker is a pretty crappy game over all and I'd really rather we didn't play and just do as strangeways said.

I will admit that yes, I was very lucky in terms of university, indeed I don't know what I would have done for friends and social interaction without that environment, as these days I've moved to another city, left a lot of my old uni friends behind and am now feeling very stuck.
I'll say though university isn't the only sort of environment where I've found this sort of thing, it usually occurs any time people are off together doing something with mutual special interest. Its another reason I really wish I had more opportunities to perform on stage, since when your all working on a production together, or hell just getting together for a performing weekend, you'd be amazed how well people get on and how accepting people tend to be.


I'll also say, that America wasn't unilateral either. For all I found the factionalism and rigid gender interest somewhat stifling, I'll say people of both genders were on average far more extrovert and friendly than they usually are in Britain, even if we never had much to talk about.

Also, some of my lady's friends, who are like her pretty alternative people were equally lovely and interesting people who I got on with very well indeed.

Luke.
 
I get triggered very easily by books I see written with an anti-male bias. Luke, that book on Tor would very easily do it for me. **TRIGGER ON** There is also a current novel by an actress that seems very popular that is nothing but one long fantasy about a few men being brutally raped. **TRIGGER OFF**

But even if those things trigger me, I try to remember that it is NOT most women's fantasy to see a man pwn'd by a woman. MOST women don't have revenge fantasies against men. And the ones who do? They have usually been horribly mistreated by men - in exactly the same way that we here have been horribly mistreated by women.

I try very hard to feel empathy toward everyone who's been hurt. I don't always succeed. Some people make it impossible to feel empathy towards them. But I feel that I owe it to everyone to try to see them with empathy, because I would like them to look at me with empathy, too.
 
Ceremony ... all I can say is that I'm so, so sorry you are going through this and I look forward to the day you can get out. You seem to have made your well-considered decision, so all I can do is respect your choice.

If there's anything I can do to help make your burden easier, please let me know. I am so fortunate to have discovered this community and this board in particular. My God, I have never actually talked with another victim of a female abuser in real life. This board is almost as good as real life, though.

I too look forward to the day we can all heal together, no matter what our genders are. Maybe that day is still far away, but recent events in my life have given me some hope that I didn't have before.
 
dark empathy said:
I definitely appreciate the impulse behind inductive statements about the over all moral badness of a group of people if that group of people have been abusive towards you.

The problem is, having studdied philosophy for a long time, especially working on disability, I have seen too many occasions of group moral categorisations gone wrong. From the beliefs about dark skinned people in the passed, to the rabid disability advocates who are very quick to talk about "the able boddied order"

It never tends to work out well and just increases isolation and hatred. This is why I am getting particularly upset by the very modern tendency of dismissing anyone as "A straight white male", for example "That is a straight white male perspective", as though simply belonging to a certain gender automatically makes you a worse human being and denigrates anything you might have to say.

I had too many years of people calling me "diseased" to my face to want to inflict that on anybody else.

I admit, I've had problems with resentment too, especially when it comes to women not recognising that the traditional victorian paradigm offers several very obvious social protections to women that men do not receive, which is just another reason why the hole paradigm should be discarded, not merely that part of it which is "patriarchal"

It was for these protections that I used to long to be a woman, since it always seemed to me women got things easier, especially in terms of relationships and protection, though I now recognize that was very much a symptom of where I happened to be at the time, as well as of my abuse.

One other thing I'll say, is that I notice that the more people polarised into specific groups with rigidly defined identities, the harder it is to get any sort of actual understanding going.

i met most of my female friends and spent a considerable time at university, which is naturally an environment which promotes discussion and free thinking, especially a university the way it is in Britain where everyone lives and works on the same campus, and there are no single sex dorms or single gender interest groups or whatever. My counsellor actually once said that university was an entirely different environment to anywhere else in the world, due to everyone being out of their comfort zone, so people are naturally more accepting.

The best experiences I've had, with women and men and making friends generally have been in similar environments, for example the singing course I went on over the weekend, occasions where a bunch of people are brought together out of mutual interest with no existing social setting.

One thing I noticed when I visited my lady's family in Pennsylvania, is that there was a very strict gender divide. Not so much in terms of women always being in the kitchin and men fixing cars, more that the sort of interests men and women had and the ways they interacted were far more prescribed than I was used to.

men talked about sport and hunting and beer and home improvement, and generally didn't talk much. Women were effusive about the doings of other women, the births, marriages and family connections of their local community.

In that sort of environment, frankly I don't blaim people for seeing men and women different species, indeed if you will forgive me a slight bit of cultural bias I did notice that in America in general group identities tended to be far more rigidly defined than I was used to over here, for example a person is either a jock or a nerd, or a democrat or a republican, or indeed a man or a woman.

Of course this doesn't mean everyone constantly, or that people there weren't friendly, but I can certainly see why my lady, as a person with distinct opinions who enjoys scifi and fantasy literature, is a christian but not of the right wing rabid sort, and believes in gender equality decided to leave that environment long before I met her.

It is also in that sort of stratified environment that I can see movements like "me too" gaining some sort of support since they are basically appeals to a mob mentality.

Luke.
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I get what you're saying, and I can see both points too. In a class I was in this week, there was a lot of the metoo BLM point of view, and what disturbs me about them is that they are so convinced that they have a right to be afraid that they do not see how they can be unjust, and therefore have no rules of engagement. They quickly try to prevent any such discussions. These public discussions often end up controlled by such people who will not admit to their power or control.

So a woman complaining about being groped takes priority over a boy stating he has suffered prolonged deliberate abuse like a badly treated animal. That isn't right. And it is hard to explain to others how deeply upsetting that is. It's exhausting just thinking about. I think it is still too foreign to many people, the genuine idea of men and boys suffering.

There are all these people claiming to speak for women. Other women use their language. It's very hard to separate the two.
 
Hi Strangeways,

Strangeways said:
I'm distrustful of women because they could baselessly accuse me of abuse. That's what my ex-wife did to me in order to control me. It wasn't true, but I thought it was. It's hard to trust a person who might automatically consider me a monster. I think this is the issue that a lot of men, even non-traumatized men, have with #MeToo. Also, of course, as my abuser was a woman, I can't help but see women as potential abusers.

I want to be able to keep my heart open and see the good in everyone. It's impossible to do that if I fear and distrust half of the world's population.

Is anyone else dealing with this issue? Any thoughts?
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I'm pretty distrustful of most people. I can relate to most of what you say. I think the issue is more about me feeling capable of taking care of myself in the presence of women (not getting dragged into old trauma patterns) and finding ways to clarify if the anger I perceive (and fear) in some men sometimes is directed at me (generally it isn't).

I think women are generally doing their best and are often acting out of unresolved trauma. It leaves them likely to act in ways that are irrational knee jerk survival responses (anger-fear) rather than responses that are more helpful in and relevant to the current situation.

Given the intensity of early childhood Development Trauma in myself, my need for healing the infant me (and as a consequence my body) is strong. People, both male and female are generally not interested in helping unless they are well paid.

That said I have one fellow I meet with regularly to do trauma healing practices together. Perhaps some day a woman will join us. This forum and the MaleSurvivor Healing Circle are good sources of support. I'm looking into working with animals too. The normal human social climate is far too isolating and aggressive to be helpful to me. I need a social climate that is more welcoming of my perspective and more interested in supportive harmonious human relations.

I'm getting better at snapping out of traumatic re-enactments with women before they go too far. It's a start but why bother relating to them if they have no interest in mutual support when it comes to healing? So far, I have yet to meet a woman like that.

Thanks for your post.

S
 
SubtleStuff said:
Hi Strangeways,

Strangeways said:
I'm distrustful of women because they could baselessly accuse me of abuse. That's what my ex-wife did to me in order to control me. It wasn't true, but I thought it was. It's hard to trust a person who might automatically consider me a monster. I think this is the issue that a lot of men, even non-traumatized men, have with #MeToo. Also, of course, as my abuser was a woman, I can't help but see women as potential abusers.

I want to be able to keep my heart open and see the good in everyone. It's impossible to do that if I fear and distrust half of the world's population.

Is anyone else dealing with this issue? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty distrustful of most people. I can relate to most of what you say. I think the issue is more about me feeling capable of taking care of myself in the presence of women (not getting dragged into old trauma patterns) and finding ways to clarify if the anger I perceive (and fear) in some men sometimes is directed at me (generally it isn't).

I think women are generally doing their best and are often acting out of unresolved trauma. It leaves them likely to act in ways that are irrational knee jerk survival responses (anger-fear) rather than responses that are more helpful in and relevant to the current situation.

Given the intensity of early childhood Development Trauma in myself, my need for healing the infant me (and as a consequence my body) is strong. People, both male and female are generally not interested in helping unless they are well paid.

That said I have one fellow I meet with regularly to do trauma healing practices together. Perhaps some day a woman will join us. This forum and the MaleSurvivor Healing Circle are good sources of support. I'm looking into working with animals too. The normal human social climate is far too isolating and aggressive to be helpful to me. I need a social climate that is more welcoming of my perspective and more interested in supportive harmonious human relations.

I'm getting better at snapping out of traumatic re-enactments with women before they go too far. It's a start but why bother relating to them if they have no interest in mutual support when it comes to healing? So far, I have yet to meet a woman like that.

Thanks for your post.

S
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You are speaking very wisely. I had to think about about it. A couple of questions though.

First, when you mention women acting out of anger and fear, are you referring to people like the #metoo and believe women mob? Because I wonder, what of those women who have not been? I know feminists like to say that all women have been, but I'm skeptical since I've met women who have not but share the same fears and anger.

Second, how quickly are you able to figure the need to distance yourself?
 
Thanks Celtaf,

Celtaf said:
You are speaking very wisely. I had to think about about it. A couple of questions though.
First, when you mention women acting out of anger and fear, are you referring to people like the #metoo and believe women mob?
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I tend to generalize to most women. I fear the anger and fear of all women. One exception to this was a neighbour who showed a strong interest in trauma healing. That reassured me. Otherwise, I'm leery and cautious.

Celtaf said:
Because I wonder, what of those women who have not been? I know feminists like to say that all women have been, but I'm skeptical since I've met women who have not but share the same fears and anger.
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The Walrus ran an article on consent in the age of #MeToo (see:https://thewalrus.ca/what-consent-means-in-the-age-of-metoo/) They quoted the Canadian Legal definition of consent as willing in word and action, not impaired and able to withdraw consent at any moment. When I told my mother this (my primary abuser) she said that she had basically been raped by my father throughout her married life. You would never know it from the outside. Both are/were highly respected and "good" people within this culture. So I just figure women who escape some form of gender violence and have some pent up anger at men are very rare.

Celtaf said:
Second, how quickly are you able to figure the need to distance yourself?
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I'm getting better. 18 years ago it took massive physical illness and 3 months in a wheel chair before I said no to the woman who was pursuing an intimate connection with me. Now it's much faster. I can do it in about a week with only moderately severe digestive problems. The key for me is to see when I'm falling into past traumatic re-enactment and giving myself a very sobering reality check. Focusing on meeting my needs any way I can is crucial.

Sincerely,

S
 
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@Strangeways, tor.com is unfortunately the tip of the iceberg in terms of misandry being the accepted norm, albeit tor.com is one which affects me personally since I really did want to write for them myself.

Increasingly though now, over any sphere of pop culture from criticisms of the latest starwars film to discussions of books by upcoming fantasy writers, misandry is sort of the accepted norm, ---- well other than rabid anti sjw bias, though those sorts of biases tend to be an overly vocal minority as opposed to the varying levels of misandry which are more of a majority. (Sjw stands for social justice warrior, a pajorative term for people who focus overly much on political correctness).

It seems these days you can't so much discuss any book, film, computer game etc, without getting into an extremely adversarial debate over gender one way or another.

It is that sort of debate I was hoping to add a semi reasonable perspective to by writing for tor.com, as indeed I already try to do in the book reviews I write over on fantasybookreview.co.uk, Find the list of my published reviews here

This is the unfortunate affect I'm seeing of me too, a place where misandry and direct hating of men is seen as acceptable and something I tend to find hugely triggering, gven that my abuse was so very public and so very predicated on the "don't touch girls"principle.

This sort of stuff is now being picked up by the government too, indeed it seems every couple of days there is a new report of how some group or committee or other has found yet more "abuse of women" (today there was an article claiming that women are regularly afraid to make eye contact with men due to fear of abuse and something must be done, again an article was trigger city for me once more).

It seems unfortunately the ultimate goal of me too and the current climate is to give women free power to accuse any and all men of abuse where abuse is anything a man does that a woman takes offence to.

Unfortunately, I confess the prevailing nature of this climate is something I find difficult myself, since powerlessness is also a major trigger for me, and feeling like I'm basically at the whim of a huge mob brings back far too many bad memories.

This is why the only way I've found to avoid these triggers is to try treat the actual women I run across in my life basically the way I treat anyone else, and remember those very good women I know, not the least the amazing one I'm married to.

I will say another problem which I simpathise with chris about is the more general problem that people (and this counts everyone), essentially have the attention span of a gold fish.

Someone can be your best friend while your both in the same city, but increase that distance and you fall off the map dramatically. One chap on this baord speculated that friends are far more of a big deal for male survivors (possibly for female survivors too), because it is so much harder to make friends or preserve friendships, thus the friends we have tend to be more important to us and when they move on and do something else we tend to feel worse.

I don't think this is a uniquely female thing though, or at least my female friends have been just as bad for this as my male ones.

Lastly, Strangeways mentioned earlier that "feminist" is a pretty movable feast.

On the one end of the scale, my lady's dad described her as "A feminist" because she believes in gender equality and doesn't buy into all of the "woman as man's helpmate" sort of stuff (there is a rather amusing tale of how we rewrote our own wedding ceremony around this idea).

on the other hand, I once met a feminist lecturer who told me that the idea of gender equality was "A very male perspective"

Why both genders being equal was "A very male perspective" I don't exactly know, but it was according to her.

I! would consider myself a feminist in terms of believing everyone should be treated equally, and in several of my book reviews have been as quick to pull authors up for shallow portrayals of female characters as male ones, though unfortunately these days it seems that the more extreme form of feminism, that which basically trades on misandry is getting more and more common, which makes things doubly difficult for victims of female perpetrators.

Luke.
 
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