Finding Neverland (*Triggers*)

Chase Eric

Moderator
Staff member
Calab, I like that you spoke up for Michael in that he wasn't here to speak for himself. It's respectful and decent and I'm glad you said it, even if I don't share your feelings fully. Interestingly, Wade and Jimmy also were also somewhat protective and even respectful of Jackson - and if anyone had a right not to be, it would be them. It really speaks to the complexity of the issue and why it's not a question of who is right and who is wrong. We each bring our own stuff to the table. Our perspectives differ in many ways but share one important thing - they are all our truths.
 

KMCINVA

Member
I believe many parents when they learn a child was sexually abused feel shame and guilt for not protecting the child. It is probably different if the parent did the sexual or physical abuse. I believe they harbor little love other than love of themselves. This story of Jackson is heartbreaking and sad for so many. Why do people turn from the survivors and validate the abuser as a good person. I find this who situation triggering.
 
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CalabrianBambino

Active Registrant
Calab, I like that you spoke up for Michael in that he wasn't here to speak for himself. It's respectful and decent and I'm glad you said it, even if I don't share your feelings fully. Interestingly, Wade and Jimmy also were also somewhat protective and even respectful of Jackson - and if anyone had a right not to be, it would be them. It really speaks to the complexity of the issue and why it's not a question of who is right and who is wrong. We each bring our own stuff to the table. Our perspectives differ in many ways but share one important thing - they are all our truths.
What we can both agree on is Michael had an unhealthy interest in children. These allegations add to the fact. It’s great to have disagreement instead of “groupthink” I feel bad for Michael, but the more I look into the more I get these vibes. He was not a smart predator. Just a manipulative one.
 

Chase Eric

Moderator
Staff member
I felt very protective towards my abuser. I wanted him to be "normal" but not wanting to see him hurt is still something I struggle with almost two years after his death. It is a strange paradox.
 

JayBro

Active Registrant
I posted about this earlier today in another thread:

The documentary isn’t available to watch from where I am located, but I have been watching interviews and specials about it on YouTube (such as with Oprah). I believe the men and thought it was beautiful how they hugged one another at the end of the show. The audience was made up almost entirely of fellow survivors, male and female, who had finished watching the film together.

The lack of anger towards the perps is something that I experience as well. My main anger and sadness has been directed towards myself, how I have reacted and been affected by the abuse afterwards. My symptoms always make me feel real guilty and often I have re-traumatized myself. So in some respects, the reactions of the men and shame and guilt that they feel for testifying in favour of Michael Jackson or to how they were conditioned due to grooming is something that I can identify with.

I was expecting myself to be triggered by the wave of people out in defence of Michael Jackson and the ridiculous videos on YouTube or in other media like Wendy Williams who are trying to discredit the two survivors and by extension other survivors. However, I am not surprised by it and I feel like many of those involved were expecting this backlash. I wonder what kind of further proof they require? I mean look at R. Kelly, there are even videos of him abusing underage girls and yet there are still his defenders. Oprah mentioned this backlash and had an attitude of “let them discredit us, bring it on!”, however I sometimes fear that the dissenting voices only increase the taboo for other survivors, making it harder for others to come forward, be believed, for non-survivors to recognise and understand what abuse is and how survivors react etc. I am afraid that some of these people are only increasing the flow of misinformation.
 

NC-Survivor

Active Registrant
the "after symptoms" both men mentioned - the constant anxiety without reason, for example. I recall feeling those some things until I started getting counseling/therapy in my 30s (in my 50s now).

The threats from MJ's attorney saying they would come down HARD on anyone who would testify against MJ. So scary!! No one should have such power!!

I also started getting counseling after my first child was born.

I was pleased that both men's families believed them. My sister did, too, after I told her of what our father did to me (only a few years ago).

I like what Oprah said in the "After Show" that, in the child's perspective, it doesn't FEEL LIKE ABUSE. It can also feel pleasurable at the time. It often takes time for the victim to realize that it was, indeed, abuse!

I actually feel this documentary will actually serve as a method to educate to the masses how grooming and abuse takes place. The perpetrator is rarely a stranger in a trenchcoat, but someone who is trusted by the family.

"you hate yourself - and you don't know why" -- this also hit deep within me!!
 
I really appreciate it when the director of the documentary said that this was not about M.J.
This was a documentary about these two survivors and their story.

I am amazed that these two guys had the guts to do it. They are clearly two very strong individuals.
I also wonder if this is not one of those notable tipping points for our society.

After watching the After Show with Oprah, I had a strange daydream that I was living open and free as a Survivor.
I was able to hold my head up.
All of my family and friends finally knew the real me and they were proud of me.
No more hiding, no more shame just the acceptance and love I have always needed and deserved.

Wouldn’t it be awesome if the shame that our society puts on male suvivors is on its way out.
Wouldn’t it be cool if our ability to survive and heal could come with a bit of social reverence.

Maybe not fully in my life time but still, it was a very beautiful day dream.
 

NC-Survivor

Active Registrant
Wouldn't it be awesome if the shame that our society puts on male suvivors is on its way out.
Wouldn’t it be cool if our ability to survive and heal could come with a bit of social reverence.
#MeToo movement has helped with this. I have finally found the courage to add the hashtag on many of my posts/shares on Facebook regarding this issue.
 

NC-Survivor

Active Registrant
not at all. They seem to be broadening their scope to include male victims, as well. After Anthony Edwards, Terry Crews, and others came out along with women during the same time, the hash tag started to become more inclusive.
 

Strangeways

Member
Hmm, that hasn't been my experience, but I'm glad it's worked for you. A lot of the guys here (including me) who've been abused by women have found #MeToo to be pretty problematic for us. But more inclusivity is always a good thing when it exists.
 

Chris4TheMill

Active Registrant
I have also found #MeToo to be very problematic for men. If it is working for you right now, great. But be prepared, you may get some push-back along the way.
 

Chase Eric

Moderator
Staff member
My problem had not been so much the hashstag MeToo movement as it has been fanatic Michael Jackson devotees who contend that this is a ploy to extract money from the Jackson estate. Never mind that the Jackson estate is focused on money as their sole approach to this situation.
 
Trigger Warnings

The MJ estate will probably get a book or movie deal out of it before it's all over. Continuing to claim the victim role for MJ

I have listened enough to the naysayers to know they will need more time to work through this.
Denial is an amazing thing to behold. Some just refuse to let go and will take it with them to their grave.

It is a bit like if the head of the catholic church was brought up on these charges.
Metaphorically speaking that is.
It just wouldn't be possible for some people to accept it.
Even if everything was pointing right at it.

It usually takes very little to discredit a victim of CSA and silence them but it does seem to be getting more and more difficult.
Thank God!

I haven't even seen the documentary and I am still very sadly convinced of his guilt.
I am certain more will come out as this gut wrenching drama unfolds.
May it help make the world a better place.
 
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NC-Survivor

Active Registrant
I truly believe this documentary will help the world understand the process of grooming. And hopefully will PREVENT future abuses from occurring. (at least somewhat)
 

lapchinj

WoR Alumnus
Wow Eric, I was also at the showing. I would have loved to have met you. The documentary was triggering so I really wasn't looking around. I don't think that I would have recognized anyone anyway. But as for Jimmy and Wade's parents letting them sleep over "in bed together" is pure negligence of the parent or parents.

When I was 4 and my mother ran after me in the house because she was going to punish me if I was lucky that I made it into the main bathroom in the house I would jump down the laundry chute into a wicker basket in the basement and from there I would crawl out the basement window and run to a neighbor lady and go play with her daughter. The neighbor lady would call my mother to tell her I was there. That was fine for her. When I did come home I was given a beating. Negligence by my mother and father.

At 9 years old we moved to another part of Long Island. When I was punished I just jumped out my second-floor window and went across the street to my boyfriend's house. There I would spend the night and my parents never looked for me. For them I was still in my room. My boyfriend's sister would over the next 8 years took thousands of photos which many were sold to the boy magazines in the '60s. Again my parents were negligent, they never came looking.

I met my judo teacher when I was 11-1/2. My parents thought that he was also a lawyer so it was OK for me to be with him. This is where Jimmy and Wade come to mind full force. I started staying with him in his city apartment. The judo school was only a couple of blocks away and my parents thought that he had a law practice in Queens, NYC. At 12 I was mesmerized that my judo teacher took so much time with me practicing judo and I got to sleep over at his apartment, I loved it. My parents lived on Long Island and he was in Manhattan. By 12-1/2 I was already being rented out for dates to people I thought were his friends. I was among other children brought to parties in the city where the kids that were brought there were auctioned off. I was flown or driven out of state to spend time with others of his friends. Again my parents were negligent.

My parents knew he was taking me to my high end private high school but I didn't always make it. I missed more days than I attended. But my parents had money so I would eventually graduate. Reminds me of the scandal going on with the rich people and colleges. That also set me up for my 4 year love affair with my gym teacher. Again my parents never questioned anything. I was in good schools with good people. When I was 13 my mother spent all winter in her Florida home. My father would fly down for the weekends. The judo teacher was taking care of me.

At 14 my judo teacher had told my parents that I was being signed up to be a model. The problem was that the modeling was not for Macy's or Sear's but for the porn industry. My parents never checked it out. When I was at my parent's house they would ask what are all the bruises? I told them it was from judo and other sports. Again they never looked into it further.

This was only a short list but what I wanted to stress was that my parents never checked up on anything. I was always in good hands. These days I cannot go on a Train or any public or private transportation. I am paranoid to walk on the streets. I cannot make or take telephone calls if I don't know who is on the other end. I was never able to go to a work interview. If my parents ever looked into who I was with things would have been much different.

To top this all off, over the past three years I found out that my parents are not my birth parents. I'm Norwegian by birth and I was in an orphanage till I was picked up at 9 months. My parents deny all this as being me making up stories but DNA does not lie.

I'm sorry to take up so much space and time but if my parents had looked into what was going on at any point in my youth. I would imagine things would have been much different. When I think of Jimmy or Wade I cry. It would have been so simple to look into what was going on.

Sending my love

️‍❤❤❤️‍

<3 Jeff

It does get better…….
 
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